carnal christian? or not really born again?

erika83 · Oct 27, 2009

OK, I have this dilemma about people that claim to be christians but their lifestyle doesn't show that at all. I know being christian doesn't make one perfect and unfortunately we still sin, but I think there is a big difference between falling at times or living in sin with no repentece.

So my question is: can a christian that is supposed to be born again and is supposed to have the Holy Spirit live a sinful life? a lifestyle similar to that of a non christian and be called a carnal christian or such person was never really born again?

LinaLinaLina · Oct 27, 2009

I really dislike the term "carnal Christian" You're either a Christian or you're not, someone who's living to satisfy the flesh cannot also be living by the Spirit. We are commanded to be different from the world. If we live just like non-Christians do, what example will those who are not saved see in us?

wattie · Oct 27, 2009

A saved person can be living like worldly people.. carnal.. because a saved person.. altho they have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside them.. also still have a sinful, carnal nature. This is the battle that Paul talks about:

Paul writing to fellow christians at the church at Corinth:

1Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

1Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Paul doesn't tell them they are not saved.. but admonishes them to flee from carnal ways.

So.. if a person is being ungodly.. doesn't mean they were never saved.. neither does it mean they have lost their salvation. The judge as to whether someone is saved is not their works or the way they look.. but whether their spirit has been regenerated by teh Holy Spirit.

There will be fruit in someone who has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit.. but that can be hard to detect. What happens when someone saved who is very quiet and doesn't do much? They aren't not saved.. the presence of the Holy Spirit inside them is just hard to detect.

'Faith without works is dead'-- the so often quoted verse... people forget the context of this verse.. that it is not talking about eternal salvation, but daily acts of service to Jesus.. THE faith.. not saving faith.

Consider that Paul later says we are not justified by works.. does the bible contradict.. no! Read the context and you will see different subjects being written about. James writinig about daily service - THE faith.. and Paul mostly writing about saving faith.

Jesus-

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

(Rom 8:37) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

(Rom 8:38) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

(Rom 8:39) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(Col 2:13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

(Col 2:14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

(Col 2:15) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

someone's salvation is between them and God.. and a person who is living carnal may be saved.. but not as close to Jesus as they should be.

If you rebel against your parents.. do you lose your biological connection?

Carpe_diem · Oct 27, 2009

erika83 said:

1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
1Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

These scriptures are perhaps something you may consider studying with the Holy Spirit. He will reveal the truth of it to you if you are diligent and it is His will for you to know.

It doesn't really matter what everyone else is thinking, saying and/or doing, it matters what we individually think, say and/or do and in response to one another. This is the simplicity of walking step-by-step with the Holy Spirit in account to The Father...we never have to look outside of ourselves!

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12And, behold, I come quickly; and my rewardiswith me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

The Father has everything under His perfect control!

Abiding In The Vine,
Carpe_diem

Irish76 · Oct 27, 2009

I think it's really up to each individual person how they decide to live after conversion. I don't believe that their bad behavior will keep them from going to Heaven. However,

Galatians 6:7-8 (King James Version)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

1 John 2:28 (King James Version)
And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Phoenix · Oct 27, 2009

actually no there is no such thing as a carnal christian and that term is horrible. they are as Lina said saved or unsaved. they will change if they are saved. if not then it is a false convert

Irish76 · Oct 27, 2009

I don't think this is a debate over semantics but about whether or not a person can lose their salvation. This is the verse in Scripture that Jesus spoke that I always refer myself to about salvation:

John 5:24 (King James Version)

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

watchmen · Oct 27, 2009

I agree, those living in habitual, unrepentant sin are not saved.

DinoDillinger · Oct 27, 2009

Let me ask you this, do you get new tires at a hair salon or medical care at a mechanic? Therefore you will know them by their fruit.

watchmen · Oct 27, 2009

DinoDillinger said:

Agreed.....

Slepsog4 · Oct 27, 2009

Paul uses the expression "carnal" of some of the Christians at Corinth. But he defines the term as those who are babes in Christ.

erika83 · Oct 28, 2009

Thank you everyone for the inputs!
So there are 2 opinions:
1. if one does not bear fruits is not saved in the first place
2. could be saved but it's not obvious: is babe is Christ or "carnal christian" whatever term one likes

Anyway I know it's not my business to judge over someone whether they have eternal life or not, it's between them and God, but in some situations it's really important to know if you are really dealing with a christian or just with someone who claims to be one.

I like the comparison you made here.

.

I've listened to a sermon about this topic and the preacher said the same thing, someone who is saved could live a life that doesn't show so but will certainly reap the consequences for bringing shame to God's name.

MahogonySnail · Oct 28, 2009

Yes they could be either a) unsaved, or b) being saved.

Definition_Christ · Oct 28, 2009

erika83 said:

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

James 2
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Our works AKA fruit make us who we are.

Matthew 7
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

shad · Oct 28, 2009

erika83 said:

A believer can be carnal and live carnally minded and bring no pleasure to God. That does not mean that they are living in outward sin or immorality. The carnal mind is at enmity with God, it is living contrary to the word and the Spirit. The carnal man (or believer) lives according to the dictates of the flesh but those dictates are not always the works of the flesh described in Gal 5:19-21. The flesh or carnal man can live in self righteousness and promote a system of good works and honor those things in life that promote marriage, family and a good occupation. In all this the Holy Spirit can be grieved in their life and they are not quickened by the word of God in their experience and this is what makes them carnal.

You can be at enmity with God through the works of the flesh or in your mind by not honoring the word of God that is preached and obeying the leading of the Spirit that guides you into that truth through grace. When we hear the word preached and do not become a doer of the word (by mixing faith with it), we become carnal because the Spirit is grieved in us. That doesn't mean that we go off and live in some kind of sin but we are not walking in the Spirit but in the flesh which are contrary one to the other. Yes you can be a born again Christian, saved forever and live carnally minded without living in any outward sins of the flesh. However, that does not mean that God is going to let you live that way forever either.

Irish76 · Oct 28, 2009

Good post shad, you explained that nicely; it gave me a better understanding of the topic.

I enjoyed reading your post too Definition_Christ, those were good Scriptures you applied to the topic: James 2:14-26 and Matthew 7:15-20.
But if I can just point out, without causing any offense, that 1 Corinthians 12:3 is not the best Scripture to apply to this situation. Let me explain...I think that you were quoting that verse and understanding it to mean that anyone who says Jesus is Lord, has the Holy Spirit:

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

I think the translation that you are using may have caused you to understand it that way because it uses the word except which may lead someone to think that there are no exceptions. In the King James translation the word but is used instead of except:

1 Corinthians 12:3 (King James Version)
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

I have met quite a few con men who will say that Jesus is Lord and will play the part of a "good Christian" in order to gain your trust and confidence.

1 Corinthians 12:3 is meant more as a general rule than an absolute rule without exceptions and I think we can see that when we put it side by side with the passage you provided from Matthew 7:15-17:
(KJV)

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Notice that Jesus uses fruit in this parable. It took me a while to understand that fruit takes a while to develop and just doesn't appear. So obviously, in the same respect, it doesn't take very long for someone to tell you that they believe Jesus is Lord but it takes a lot longer to observe that person and determine if their fruit is, in fact, good.

cornerstone · Oct 31, 2009

You have to look in the Bible for examples:

King David when he was involved in adulterous affair with Bathsheba didn't look or act Christ-like
David when he had Uriah the Hittite killed didn't look or act Christ-like

In 2 Peter 1:9 the Bible says that a person can be blind and cannot see afar off and has forgotten
that he was once purged from their sin.

So yes, a person who is saved, can act and look carnally.

Paul told the Corinthian church, I cannot talk to you of the spiritual,because you are yet carnal,
envy and divisions among them, (1 Corinthians 3)

motojojo · Oct 31, 2009

Our journey to God is up and down at times were very good and at times were very bad, thats why we need a savior and a perfect one He is. We all need mercy at times but if they are a 40yrs in Christ and talk all manner of evil and your lead to say something do so as humbly as possible because your not so perfect your self.

Buddee · Oct 31, 2009

Definition_Christ said:

GidMo...

This goes along with our conversation on IRC the other day...and I'm going to do my best to try to explain this for you, ok?

Pretend this is me talking now...

"No one can say what I am thinking except I tell them."

Now, you can go ahead and say, "Buddee, You are thinking ______." and chances are, you'd be wrong. You did in fact make a statement as to what I was thinking, but since I didn't tell you exactly what that was, you probably made an untrue statement.

So it "kind of sort of" is with the above.

You can say the words "Jesus is Lord" but unless you say it because Jesus really IS Lord (of Your life) which can only be so by the power of the Holy Spirit, you have again made an untrue statement.

In other words, you are only capable of truthfully saying Jesus is Lord because it is the Holy Spirit that has made it so.

Kathleen · Oct 31, 2009

it sounds to me like they are pribably not saved.
If they are relaly bron again, the holy spirit would be in them, guiding them, and although i know we all commit sins, we (hopefully) dont live sinfull lifestyles
for a person to know right and does not do it;to him it is a sin

carnal christian? or not really born again?

Senior Member

LinaLinaLina

Guest

Senior Member

Carpe_diem

Guest

Irish76

Guest

Phoenix

Guest

Irish76

Guest

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Slepsog4

Guest

Senior Member

Banned

Definition_Christ

Guest

shad

Guest

Irish76

Guest

cornerstone

Guest

motojojo

Guest

Buddee

Guest

Senior Member