Catholic Heresy (for the record)

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notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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that's certainly a common interpretation of the passage, and one I'm not opposed to, really...

but consider the 'corporate' idea... "Now we have received"... it's plural... so, imo, could be corporate...

in the end, imo, it becomes recursive, because the one who sees 'individuals' here would have to rely on personal interpretation to know it refers to individuals.
We have received refers to individual believers who have received from the Lord not from a corporate body.

The church Jesus founded is an organism not an organization. The church that will prevail against the gates of hades is not a visible church of bricks and mortar but of living stones in Jesus Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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We have received refers to individual believers who have received from the Lord not from a corporate body.

The church Jesus founded is an organism not an organization. The church that will prevail against the gates of hades is not a visible church of bricks and mortar but of living stones in Jesus Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
and again, from what I can see, an assumption in both paragraphs... and not ones that i'm opposed to, really...

sometimes our assumptions are buried so deeply inside us we aren't aware of them... I know that's true with me...
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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do you believe that the church as a whole could be in error?
That which is church cannot but that which claims to be church is in error.

Organized religion is fraught with errors.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

dallasb78

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Oct 13, 2015
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If the Holy Spirit guides all true believers in to what the Bible actually says. Then why do we come across "Bible-believing" Christians with different interpretations of the Bible?
 
Z

zzz98

Guest
That which is church cannot but that which claims to be church is in error.

Organized religion is fraught with errors.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
You are for unorganized religion?
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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If the Holy Spirit guides all true believers in to what the Bible actually says. Then why do we come across "Bible-believing" Christians with different interpretations of the Bible?
Perhaps many of those to whom you refer are just pretenders and not possessors.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

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May 17, 2013
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You are for unorganized religion?
What is pure religion?

Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

dallasb78

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Oct 13, 2015
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Perhaps many of those to whom you refer are just pretenders and not possessors.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
I suppose that's possible. But Catholics(at least those serious about their faith) all believe the Bible and in Christ and in His Death and Resurrection. Shouldn't they all have the Holy Spirit and interpret the Bible correctly? Shouldn't all true Christians agree on absolutely everything regarding the faith?
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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I suppose that's possible. But Catholics(at least those serious about their faith) all believe the Bible and in Christ and in His Death and Resurrection. Shouldn't they all have the Holy Spirit and interpret the Bible correctly? Shouldn't all true Christians agree on absolutely everything regarding the faith?
Would that be the catholics who are serious about their faith that receive grace through the sacraments?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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I suppose that's possible. But Catholics(at least those serious about their faith) all believe the Bible and in Christ and in His Death and Resurrection. Shouldn't they all have the Holy Spirit and interpret the Bible correctly? Shouldn't all true Christians agree on absolutely everything regarding the faith?
Hello dallasb78,

Regarding the above, the problem stems from people allowing others to tell them what scripture is saying. We should all be like the Berean's who searched the scriptures daily to see if what Paul was teaching was the truth. In the case of the RCC, the people allow the pope and her liturgy to dictate scripture. If the people did an honest study, they would have to reject the RCC and its authority and that because what the RCC teaches and what the word of God of teaches are at odds with one another. This is why the RCC deemed that tradition and new revelation and ex-cathedra from the pope's are to be received as being equal with scripture. This allows them to basically teach whatever they want, after all, its coming from the pope, right?

Every individual believer should be in the process of being an expert on the word of God. If everyone was doing this instead allowing others to tell them what the word of God means, then based on scripture, they would be able to tell the truth from a lie. We have a big problem with people learning scripture from the internet and from videos and that from false teachers. They take this information and they slap that on scripture so that it becomes the word of God, instead of comparing those teachings to the word of God and discerning between the two. This is why we have people like Rob Bell's who teach that "Love wins" and that there is no lake of fire and everyone goes to heaven. Or those who teach that the book of Revelation falls under the banner of Hyperbole, meaning that it is exaggerated and not to be taken literally. Then you have your amillennialist who have been deceived by this teaching, some denying the resurrection and catching away and most proclaiming that we are already living in the millennium, which according to them is not a real thousand years but an unknown amount of time. We also have people teaching that Paul was a false apostle and a liar and that his writings are not God-Breathed and they do so to their own destruction. These all stem from people not being Berean's, but adopting the teachings of others and making those teachings the word of God. That being said, just a cursory look at what the RCC believes and teaches reveals that she is not the true church of Christ, but is a pagan system pretending to be of Christ, which is spiritual adultery.
 

dallasb78

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2015
125
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Hello dallasb78,

Regarding the above, the problem stems from people allowing others to tell them what scripture is saying. We should all be like the Berean's who searched the scriptures daily to see if what Paul was teaching was the truth. In the case of the RCC, the people allow the pope and her liturgy to dictate scripture. If the people did an honest study, they would have to reject the RCC and its authority and that because what the RCC teaches and what the word of God of teaches are at odds with one another. This is why the RCC deemed that tradition and new revelation and ex-cathedra from the pope's are to be received as being equal with scripture. This allows them to basically teach whatever they want, after all, its coming from the pope, right?

Every individual believer should be in the process of being an expert on the word of God. If everyone was doing this instead allowing others to tell them what the word of God means, then based on scripture, they would be able to tell the truth from a lie. We have a big problem with people learning scripture from the internet and from videos and that from false teachers. They take this information and they slap that on scripture so that it becomes the word of God, instead of comparing those teachings to the word of God and discerning between the two. This is why we have people like Rob Bell's who teach that "Love wins" and that there is no lake of fire and everyone goes to heaven. Or those who teach that the book of Revelation falls under the banner of Hyperbole, meaning that it is exaggerated and not to be taken literally. Then you have your amillennialist who have been deceived by this teaching, some denying the resurrection and catching away and most proclaiming that we are already living in the millennium, which according to them is not a real thousand years but an unknown amount of time. We also have people teaching that Paul was a false apostle and a liar and that his writings are not God-Breathed and they do so to their own destruction. These all stem from people not being Berean's, but adopting the teachings of others and making those teachings the word of God. That being said, just a cursory look at what the RCC believes and teaches reveals that she is not the true church of Christ, but is a pagan system pretending to be of Christ, which is spiritual adultery.
I see no evidence that careful study of the scripture results in a sure interpretation. Instead it just results in people reading into the verses want they want to be true. The Magisterium of the Church doesn't teach merely want it wants. it teaches what the Holy Spirit has revealed to it through Scripture and Tradition. You may say that the Holy Spirit guides you as well, but if He did no other Christian who has the Holy Spirit would ever disagree with you since you both are guided by Him.
 

dallasb78

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2015
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Would that be the catholics who are serious about their faith that receive grace through the sacraments?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Please answer the question. Yes or No.

Yes, the same Catholics.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Would that be the catholics who are serious about their faith that receive grace through the sacraments?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
The Sacraments:

1. Baptism

The RCC's teaching on this is that, at the time one receives Christ, all sin is forgiven up to the point of baptism. The sacrament of Reconciliation is a sacrament in which the priest, as the agent of God, forgives sins committed after Baptism, when the sinner is heartily sorry for them, sincerely confesses them, and is willing to make satisfaction for them. Yet scripture states that Jesus made satisfaction for our sins and ascended to the right hand of God and makes intercession for those who pray to God the Father in his name. Also, there is only one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus. Therefore, we can go boldly before the throne of grace in the name of the Lord Jesus and when we confess our sins to him (not another man and not through Mary) then he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. All sin has been paid for by Christ past, present and future for the one who continues in faith.

2. The Eucharist

The Lord instituted his supper with two elements, the bread and the wine, which figuratively represents his body that was broken for us and his blood that was shed for us, respectively. The RCC has changed that into a pagan ritual taking the two elements and making them one in a Eucharist wafer. The priest calls Christ down out of heaven who enters into the Eucharist so that the partaker is literally eating the flesh and blood of the Lord Jesus thousands of times per day all over the world. This is why in some Catholic services, you will see them hold what is called a "communion plate" underneath the Eucharist in case it falls and that because they believe that Christ is in the Eucharist. This sounds more like pagan ritual of Mithraism Yet, scripture states that Christ died once and for all and ascended to heaven and sat down at the right hand of the God the Father where he ever makes intercession for all believers.

3. Reconcilation

By this sacrament Christians are freed from sins committed after baptism. The sacrament of penance is considered the normal way to be absolved from mortal sins which would otherwise condemn a person to Hell. The RCC teaches that there are there are venial and mortal sins. Venial are lesser sin's that do not lead to punishment, whereas mortal sin's can. Scripture states that the only sin that cannot be forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. The example of this is when the Jewish leaders said that Jesus was casting out demons by the prince of demons (Satan) and therefore calling the Holy Spirit, evil. One would have to perform something directly similar in order to commit this sin, which would have to be willful. Other than blasphemy against the Spirit, all sin is sin, of which Jesus said, "all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man it shall be forgiven him." Therefore, all sin is forgivable if we confess and repent and it does not require personal works on our part to be absolved of them.

4. Confirmation

According to the RCC, Confirmation is a Catholic Sacrament of mature Christian commitment and a deepening of baptismal gifts. It is one of the three Sacraments of Initiation for Catholics. It is most often associated with the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Scripture states that those who heard the message of salvation of Jesus Christ, most of the time immediately received the gifts of the spirit, such as Cornelius' household, who as Peter was still speaking the gospel to them, they began to speak in languages and prophesy and that because God purified their hearts through faith and faith alone. They must have matured really fast!


5. Marriage

The sacrament of marriage has nothing to do with salvation, unless the unbelieving husband is saved by his believing wife and vise versa. However it can affect salvation if a man is with another man's wife and vise versa, which is adultery. Otherwise, it is an institution between man and woman that God created for all.

6. Holy Orders

In the Sacrament of Holy Orders, or Ordination, the priest being ordained vows to lead other Catholics by bringing them the sacraments (especially the Eucharist), by proclaiming the Gospel, and by providing other means to holiness. (Regarding the Eucharist, see above)


7. Anointing the sick

The Catholic Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick, formerly known as Last Rites or Extreme Unction, is a ritual of healing appropriate not only for physical but also for mental and spiritual sickness. According to the RCC, The last rites are meant to prepare the dying person's soul for death, by providing absolution for sins by penance, sacramental grace and prayers for the relief of suffering through anointing, and the final administration of the Eucharist, known as "Viaticum", which is Latin for "provision for the journey."

Again, going over the same information, scripture states that for believes who continue in faith, no last rites are required and that because a true believer their sins are all covered by the shed blood of Christ past, present and future. Also, providing the dying person with the Eucharist prior to death is not necessary again, see Eucharist above. This thinking is all based on sins committed after baptism as not being covered by Christ, but needing to be resolved by a priest through the sacraments, as well as the teaching of Purgatory. According to the RCC dogma, all Catholics must first go to Purgatory in order to be purged by fire of any sins that were not absolved while living. Yet scripture states that, Jesus paid the penalty for all sins and that when we confess our sin's he is faithful and just to forgive us for all sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. After Stephen was stoned and dying, did he have a priest run over to him to give him his last rites and administer the Eucharist? No! Stephan saw the Lord standing at the right hand of God and said, "Lord, receive my spirit." His sins were already covered by grace through faith and at the time of death his spirit departed his body and went immediately to be in the presence of the Lord.
 

valiant

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Mar 22, 2015
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Originally Posted by notuptome
1 Cor 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

You see corporate in there anywhere? Christians unite around the word of God and somehow know when it is taught correctly.
That's because they all have the same Teacher who is God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
that's certainly a common interpretation of the passage, and one I'm not opposed to, really...

but consider the 'corporate' idea... "Now we have received"... it's plural... so, imo, could be corporate...

in the end, imo, it becomes recursive, because the one who sees 'individuals' here would have to rely on personal interpretation to know it refers to individuals.
The weakness to your corporate idea is found in verse 14 where AN INDIVIDUAL is definitely in mind. That is not personal interpretation but FACT.

Furthermore earlier on it does not have a corporate body in mind, but Spirit born Christians as a whole in contrast to non-Spirit born men. It is because each of them is born of the Spirit that each receives spiritual things. Thus it is an individual thing.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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I see no evidence that careful study of the scripture results in a sure interpretation. Instead it just results in people reading into the verses want they want to be true. The Magisterium of the Church doesn't teach merely want it wants. it teaches what the Holy Spirit has revealed to it through Scripture and Tradition. You may say that the Holy Spirit guides you as well, but if He did no other Christian who has the Holy Spirit would ever disagree with you since you both are guided by Him.
But the Magisterium is proven to teach its own ideas and not ideas revealed by the Holy Spirit, for it constantly contravenes the word of God.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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That which is church cannot but that which claims to be church is in error.

Organized religion is fraught with errors.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
what would you say is church, then?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Perhaps many of those to whom you refer are just pretenders and not possessors.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
when I was growing up, I was sure that the church I went to had the true bible doctrines...

as time went by and I began to meet people from other groups, I was surprised to find that there were intelligent, sincere people who thought something different about God than I did...

maybe they were decieved, but if sincere seekers for God are not drawn into his care, then who is?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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The weakness to your corporate idea is found in verse 14 where AN INDIVIDUAL is definitely in mind. That is not personal interpretation but FACT.

Furthermore earlier on it does not have a corporate body in mind, but Spirit born Christians as a whole in contrast to non-Spirit born men. It is because each of them is born of the Spirit that each receives spiritual things. Thus it is an individual thing.
well, it looks to me the the singular 'man' is used as a way of talking about a class...

like 'how many roads must a man walk down...'

I don't understand your second paragraph... if you want to break it down, plz do!
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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one more thing while I'm thinking of it...

ask most protestants what their truth is grounded on, and most will say 'the bible'... I've said it myself...

so I was surprised years ago when I read in 1 Timothy "the church... the pillar and ground of the truth."