Catholic Heresy (for the record)
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J
This is what is perplexing, how a true Christian could swallow all the camels that fly directly in the face of the teaching of our Lord Jesus and His apostles (inventions of men and error which the Catechism is replete with). These statements about Islam are simply off-the-wall, in terms of the Christian faith. And those of you Catholic who see this, how is it you remain part of such an institution? Do you see no complicity, in your support of Catholicism?
J
Just speaking my own opinion, I believe there are saved Catholics who have genuine faith and a confession of Christ, have personally known those who don't swallow a lot of the Catechism, all the Mariolatry, don't really believe the Popes infallible, who've contradicted each other down the ages, etc. But what I find bothersome is how they can continue to support an institution of very egregious error, assent to be part of that. Catholicism or any cult, upon seeing the truth, I'd flee from, would not wish to be supportive of things against the Holy Spirit, in any way. This I don't understand, in terms of the genuineness of any cult experience.
Would add that it seems, often, it's a matter of being part of that society, family and friends. But even then, where has the "come out from among them" of 2 Corinthians 6:17 gone?
Would add that it seems, often, it's a matter of being part of that society, family and friends. But even then, where has the "come out from among them" of 2 Corinthians 6:17 gone?
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They never put two and two together. They do not question the church. They do not obey the church but they do not question the church.
They find comfort in the formalities of religion. It has only been in recent years that the church allowed them to read their bibles. Now they are not allowed to understand it apart from what the church teaches but they can read it. Not all that long ago everything was in Latin and nobody knew what was being said. Some still go to special Latin masses because they love the pageantry of them. Hard to find Christ if you do not comprehend the language. Protestant pressure brought about the change to English in the states.
Some Catholics get saved despite Rome's best efforts.
There is rejoicing in heaven over a soul coming to Christ.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
They find comfort in the formalities of religion. It has only been in recent years that the church allowed them to read their bibles. Now they are not allowed to understand it apart from what the church teaches but they can read it. Not all that long ago everything was in Latin and nobody knew what was being said. Some still go to special Latin masses because they love the pageantry of them. Hard to find Christ if you do not comprehend the language. Protestant pressure brought about the change to English in the states.
Some Catholics get saved despite Rome's best efforts.
There is rejoicing in heaven over a soul coming to Christ.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
J
By hate speech, you must be referring to the Popes quoted, who showed such contempt for the true gospel and blood of the Lord Jesus? But thank you for verifying one of my theories, that your "church" will compromise truth, out of fear. Got to try and protect that real estate, first and foremost. After all, take away the buildings and the Halloween costumes, you've got nothing left.
Then they are Catholics by default, not by conviction.
That's just prejudice and ignorance on your part. the term is offensive, btw.
That depends on the true definition of infallibility, which educated Catholics should know. Anti-Catholics refuse to let go of their false definition, no matter how many times it is explained to them. You assert, but fail to give an example, because that would take research, and you would still come up empty. Another empty assertion.
Paul is not referring to believers (Catholics) when he says "them", he is referring to unbelievers.
That's just prejudice and ignorance on your part. the term is offensive, btw.
That depends on the true definition of infallibility, which educated Catholics should know. Anti-Catholics refuse to let go of their false definition, no matter how many times it is explained to them. You assert, but fail to give an example, because that would take research, and you would still come up empty. Another empty assertion.
Paul is not referring to believers (Catholics) when he says "them", he is referring to unbelievers.
Those who know the truth know that allah is not the God of Abraham the True and Living God. Allah is a pagan Arabic moon god. The capricious nature of allah makes any allusion to Jehovah laughable. To teach that a God Who is pure and holy would reward those who kill and die in the process seventy virgins is completely crazy. Yet this is what the Islamic religion teaches in the name of allah. Mohammed is a great prophet in Islam yet he was a murdering criminal.
Romanism speaks out of darkness for it has no light.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Romanism speaks out of darkness for it has no light.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
J
Popes haven't contradicted each other down the ages? You really ought to watch what you ask for, Einstein. How about not an example, but examples? We have the previous examples given here, of your modern Popes' dire apostasy and sucking the kneecaps of Muslims. Now, some previous Popes,
Pope Sylvester I, First Council of Nicaea, "Nicean Creed", 325 A.D., ex cathedra: "We believe ... in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, ... is coming to judge the living and the dead."
Pope Damasus I, Council of Rome, Canon 15, 382 A.D., ex cathedra: "If anyone does not say that He Jesus Christ ... will come to judge the living and the dead, he is a heretic."
Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, 1311-1312, ex cathedra: "It is an insult to the holy name and a disgrace to the Christian faith that in certain parts of the world subject to Christian princes where Saracens [i.e., the followers of Islam, also called Muslims] live, sometimes apart, sometimes intermingled with Christians, the Saracen priests, commonly called Zabazala, in their temples or mosques, in which the Saracens meet to adore the infidel Mahomet, loudly invoke and extol his name each day at certain hours from a high place ... This brings disrepute on our faith and gives great scandal to the faithful. These practices cannot be tolerated without displeasing the divine majesty. We therefore, with the sacred council's approval, strictly forbid such practices henceforth in Christian lands. We enjoin on Catholic princes, one and all.. They are to forbid expressly the public invocation of the sacrilegious name of Mahomet ... Those who presume to act otherwise are to be so chastised by the princes for their irreverence, that others may be deterred from such boldness."
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Basel, 1434, ex cathedra: "There is hope that very many from the abominable sect of Mahomet will be converted to the Catholic faith."
Pope Callixtus III, 1455-1458: "I vow to ... exult the true Faith, and to extirpate the diabolical sect of the reprobate and faithless Mahomet in the East." (from A History of Christendom, Vol. 3, P. 571)
As a matter of fact, I'm not sure you've had a Pope in recent memory who could match his socks.
Pope Sylvester I, First Council of Nicaea, "Nicean Creed", 325 A.D., ex cathedra: "We believe ... in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, ... is coming to judge the living and the dead."
Pope Damasus I, Council of Rome, Canon 15, 382 A.D., ex cathedra: "If anyone does not say that He Jesus Christ ... will come to judge the living and the dead, he is a heretic."
Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, 1311-1312, ex cathedra: "It is an insult to the holy name and a disgrace to the Christian faith that in certain parts of the world subject to Christian princes where Saracens [i.e., the followers of Islam, also called Muslims] live, sometimes apart, sometimes intermingled with Christians, the Saracen priests, commonly called Zabazala, in their temples or mosques, in which the Saracens meet to adore the infidel Mahomet, loudly invoke and extol his name each day at certain hours from a high place ... This brings disrepute on our faith and gives great scandal to the faithful. These practices cannot be tolerated without displeasing the divine majesty. We therefore, with the sacred council's approval, strictly forbid such practices henceforth in Christian lands. We enjoin on Catholic princes, one and all.. They are to forbid expressly the public invocation of the sacrilegious name of Mahomet ... Those who presume to act otherwise are to be so chastised by the princes for their irreverence, that others may be deterred from such boldness."
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Basel, 1434, ex cathedra: "There is hope that very many from the abominable sect of Mahomet will be converted to the Catholic faith."
Pope Callixtus III, 1455-1458: "I vow to ... exult the true Faith, and to extirpate the diabolical sect of the reprobate and faithless Mahomet in the East." (from A History of Christendom, Vol. 3, P. 571)
As a matter of fact, I'm not sure you've had a Pope in recent memory who could match his socks.
J
It really is amazing. The modern Catholic doesn't know much about the Bible, oblivious as to understanding scripture, doesn't know much about the history of their own "church," seem to only be aware of the cannibalism teachings and how to do repetitive chants to Mary, hence can even mistake the moon god idol Mohammed conjured, Allah, for Jehovah.
They're their own worst enemies, trying to defend the Roman cult. They'd maybe get more converts, if they'd only learn to shutup.
They're their own worst enemies, trying to defend the Roman cult. They'd maybe get more converts, if they'd only learn to shutup.
There is no "Communion with Islam", some hate cultist bigot made that up. Probably Matt Slick, nobooy can distort the Catechism like him.
Some will say this declaration does not indicate Muslims believe in the same God we do because it only says “Muslims… profess to hold the faith of Abraham,” not that they actually do. So what gives?
The Council fathers were certainly careful to say Muslims “profess…” butnot that they "profess" to believe in one God. It says they "profess to hold the faith of Abraham." "The faith of Abraham” involves more than simply acknowledging that God is one. CCC 59-64 teaches that “the faith of Abraham” includes:
“The people descended from Abraham” who “would be the trustee of the promise made to the patriarchs, the chosen people, called to prepare for that day when God would gather all his children into the unity of the Church” (CCC 60).
The Catechism goes on to point out that the people who possess the true “faith of Abraham” include:
“the patriarchs, prophets, and certain other Old Testament figures” who “have been and always will be honored as saints in all the Church’s liturgical traditions” (CCC 61).
Paragraphs 63-64 in the Catechism continue:
Israel is the priestly people of God, “called by the name of the Lord,” and “the first to hear the world of God,” the people of ‘elder brethren’ in the faith of Abraham. (64) Through the prophets, God forms his people in the hope of salvation, in the expectation of a new and everlasting Covenant intended for all… a salvation which will include all the nations. Above all, the poor and humble of the Lord… as Sarah, Rebecca, Miriam, Deborah, Hannah, Judith, and Esther… The purest figure among them is Mary.
Muslims could hardly be included in this number.
However, it is a distortion to claim from this that Muslims do not truly believe in the one true God because it was clearly after having said Muslims “profess to hold the faith of Abraham,” that the Council fathers then declared: “… together with us they adore the one, merciful God…”
These are two distinct declarations:
1. [Muslims] profess to hold the faith of Abraham.
2. Together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.
CCC 841 also references Vatican II's Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions, Nostra Aetate, 3, that makes the teaching of the Council perhaps even clearer:
The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even his inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God.
Once again, we see first the declaration that Muslims "adore the one God..." made without qualification. Then, the fathers say "Islam link itself" to Abraham. This is not saying there is a link; rather, it is saying Muslim make that link. Once again, we have two clearly distinct declarations.
Is the Muslim God Our God?
There are many things taught in Islam that are so radically opposed to what we believe as Catholic Christians, that some will say, "Well, perhaps they believe in one God, but the 'one God' they believe in is not the same God we believe in because, for example, the Koran teaches:
Many claim there is a point where errors regarding what “the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth” teaches become so far removed from the truth that it becomes necessary to say that God being spoken of is no longer "God" at all. My take is that as long as a person understands the basic metaphysical truth that God is “the one, merciful God,” then errors concerning what God has said, or what he has revealed about his inner life are simply errors about those things, not about God as the one, true God.
Some will argue that if someone presents, for example, their “God” as teaching the rape of small children to be okay, then that God is not God at all. And that, I would argue, is true. It could be argued that that "God" would suffer from a moral defect, and therefore, could not be God.
But even if it is possible for a person (or a faith, like Islam) to claim belief in the one true God, but so distort what God teaches that he (or it) ceases to truly believe in the “one true God" in reality, then, according to the Church, Islam has not reached that point in its errors.
Thus, we Catholics have to be careful to distinguish between the fact that Muslims believe in the one true God “living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,” and the fact that they get it wrong—profoundly wrong—when it comes to both who God has revealed himself to be in the New Testament, and what he has taught his people.
We pull no punches as Catholics when it comes to pointing out the errors of Islam. But we also need to begin by getting it right concerning the things about which we agree.
Ask a Saint – He Knows
Pope St. John Paul II strikes the balance beautifully, concisely, and without compromise between acknowledging what Muslims get right, and challenging where they go wrong, in his excellent book, Crossing the Threshhold of Hope. After pointing out that the Church has a “high regard for Muslims who worship one God, living and subsistent, merciful and omnipotent, the Creator of heaven and earth,” he then observes after reflecting on Islam and the Koran:
Whoever knows the Old and New Testaments, and then reads the Koran, clearly sees the process by which it completely reduces Divine Revelation. It is impossible not to note the movement away from what God said about Himself, first in the Old Testament through the Prophets, and then finally in the New Testament through His Son. In Islam all the richness of God's self-revelation, which constitutes the heritage of the Old and New Testaments, has definitely been set aside. Some of the most beautiful names in the human language are given to the God of the Koran, but He is ultimately a God outside of the World, a God who is only Majesty, never Emmanuel, God-with-us. Islam is not a religion of redemption. There is no room for the Cross and the Resurrection(p. 92).
St. John Paul first acknowledges the truth that Muslims get it right when they profess faith in one God. Then, and only then, does he point out they have it as wrong as wrong can be when it comes to what God has revealed to us in Scripture about who he is, and, I would add, what he asks of his people by way of his commandments.
Do Muslims Worship the Same God Catholics Do? | Catholic Answers
JesusisAll, your hatred for the Catholic Church, or whoever you borrowed the quotes from, is unjustified and irrational.
Some will say this declaration does not indicate Muslims believe in the same God we do because it only says “Muslims… profess to hold the faith of Abraham,” not that they actually do. So what gives?
The Council fathers were certainly careful to say Muslims “profess…” butnot that they "profess" to believe in one God. It says they "profess to hold the faith of Abraham." "The faith of Abraham” involves more than simply acknowledging that God is one. CCC 59-64 teaches that “the faith of Abraham” includes:
“The people descended from Abraham” who “would be the trustee of the promise made to the patriarchs, the chosen people, called to prepare for that day when God would gather all his children into the unity of the Church” (CCC 60).
The Catechism goes on to point out that the people who possess the true “faith of Abraham” include:
“the patriarchs, prophets, and certain other Old Testament figures” who “have been and always will be honored as saints in all the Church’s liturgical traditions” (CCC 61).
Paragraphs 63-64 in the Catechism continue:
Israel is the priestly people of God, “called by the name of the Lord,” and “the first to hear the world of God,” the people of ‘elder brethren’ in the faith of Abraham. (64) Through the prophets, God forms his people in the hope of salvation, in the expectation of a new and everlasting Covenant intended for all… a salvation which will include all the nations. Above all, the poor and humble of the Lord… as Sarah, Rebecca, Miriam, Deborah, Hannah, Judith, and Esther… The purest figure among them is Mary.
Muslims could hardly be included in this number.
However, it is a distortion to claim from this that Muslims do not truly believe in the one true God because it was clearly after having said Muslims “profess to hold the faith of Abraham,” that the Council fathers then declared: “… together with us they adore the one, merciful God…”
These are two distinct declarations:
1. [Muslims] profess to hold the faith of Abraham.
2. Together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.
CCC 841 also references Vatican II's Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions, Nostra Aetate, 3, that makes the teaching of the Council perhaps even clearer:
The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even his inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God.
Once again, we see first the declaration that Muslims "adore the one God..." made without qualification. Then, the fathers say "Islam link itself" to Abraham. This is not saying there is a link; rather, it is saying Muslim make that link. Once again, we have two clearly distinct declarations.
Is the Muslim God Our God?
There are many things taught in Islam that are so radically opposed to what we believe as Catholic Christians, that some will say, "Well, perhaps they believe in one God, but the 'one God' they believe in is not the same God we believe in because, for example, the Koran teaches:
- Women are inferior to men (Sura 4:34)
- Men can, and even should, ‘beat’ their wives in some circumstances (Sura 4:34).
- Belief in the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ is false (Sura 4:157-159).
- Belief in the divinity of Christ is blasphemy (Sura 5:72).
- Belief in Jesus Christ as ‘the Son of God’ is grave error (Sura 19:35; 10:68).
- Muslims are commanded to ‘fight against’ Christians and all who disagree with them. Sura 9:29 says:Fight those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, nor follow the Religion of Truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
- God wills moral as well as physical evil. In fact, Sura 37:94 says, ‘He [Allah] created you as well as what you do,’ whether good or evil.
- ‘God does not love the unbelievers’ (Sura 3:32).
Many claim there is a point where errors regarding what “the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth” teaches become so far removed from the truth that it becomes necessary to say that God being spoken of is no longer "God" at all. My take is that as long as a person understands the basic metaphysical truth that God is “the one, merciful God,” then errors concerning what God has said, or what he has revealed about his inner life are simply errors about those things, not about God as the one, true God.
Some will argue that if someone presents, for example, their “God” as teaching the rape of small children to be okay, then that God is not God at all. And that, I would argue, is true. It could be argued that that "God" would suffer from a moral defect, and therefore, could not be God.
But even if it is possible for a person (or a faith, like Islam) to claim belief in the one true God, but so distort what God teaches that he (or it) ceases to truly believe in the “one true God" in reality, then, according to the Church, Islam has not reached that point in its errors.
Thus, we Catholics have to be careful to distinguish between the fact that Muslims believe in the one true God “living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,” and the fact that they get it wrong—profoundly wrong—when it comes to both who God has revealed himself to be in the New Testament, and what he has taught his people.
We pull no punches as Catholics when it comes to pointing out the errors of Islam. But we also need to begin by getting it right concerning the things about which we agree.
Ask a Saint – He Knows
Pope St. John Paul II strikes the balance beautifully, concisely, and without compromise between acknowledging what Muslims get right, and challenging where they go wrong, in his excellent book, Crossing the Threshhold of Hope. After pointing out that the Church has a “high regard for Muslims who worship one God, living and subsistent, merciful and omnipotent, the Creator of heaven and earth,” he then observes after reflecting on Islam and the Koran:
Whoever knows the Old and New Testaments, and then reads the Koran, clearly sees the process by which it completely reduces Divine Revelation. It is impossible not to note the movement away from what God said about Himself, first in the Old Testament through the Prophets, and then finally in the New Testament through His Son. In Islam all the richness of God's self-revelation, which constitutes the heritage of the Old and New Testaments, has definitely been set aside. Some of the most beautiful names in the human language are given to the God of the Koran, but He is ultimately a God outside of the World, a God who is only Majesty, never Emmanuel, God-with-us. Islam is not a religion of redemption. There is no room for the Cross and the Resurrection(p. 92).
St. John Paul first acknowledges the truth that Muslims get it right when they profess faith in one God. Then, and only then, does he point out they have it as wrong as wrong can be when it comes to what God has revealed to us in Scripture about who he is, and, I would add, what he asks of his people by way of his commandments.
Do Muslims Worship the Same God Catholics Do? | Catholic Answers
JesusisAll, your hatred for the Catholic Church, or whoever you borrowed the quotes from, is unjustified and irrational.
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J
Nice copy and paste you likely didn't even read, that doesn't even address the firm examples of contradictory Popes I provided you, which you, for either ignorance or deception, claimed could not be done.
I can only reply to your long winded copy and paste nothingness and usual non sequitur, Catholic intellectual laziness: just more blah, blah, blah.
I can only reply to your long winded copy and paste nothingness and usual non sequitur, Catholic intellectual laziness: just more blah, blah, blah.
J
Slander is all you have left. Slander or threats is all you get from the cults, when it's pointed out they've painted themselves into the corner. By the way, "reasonable" you may be surprised is not synonymous with "just agree with Rome." This is another pathological aspect of the spiritual myopia you suffer, trying to equate your apostasies and lies you can't keep track of, over all those generations of error, with reason.
It is ok to hate. Job eschewed evil. No matter how ardent the argument we love the Romanist and hate Romanism.
No false ideology no matter how dearly held is of any virtue. Christ only Christ and Him according to what the scriptures teach is of any virtue toward salvation and eternal life.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
No false ideology no matter how dearly held is of any virtue. Christ only Christ and Him according to what the scriptures teach is of any virtue toward salvation and eternal life.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
J
This news went out all over the world,
"Pope Francis has been the central figure in ushering peace between religions, especially Israelis and Palestinians. Now today, June 8th, Pope Francis will once again break another barrier as Islamic prayers and readings from the Quran will be heard at the Vatican."
Now they're reading from the book of an antichrist religion. No communion with Islam. Nooo... uh huh.
It's like idolatry. Catholics don't do idolatry, don't worship Mary. That's out of one side of their mouths, I suppose out of the other side they must say, "Don't believe your lying eyes." To whit,
[video=youtube;_jLuvyPL_hg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jLuvyPL_hg[/video]
No idols, nooo... as they lift them up and parade them down Main Street. Seems to be a bit of the old, "Believe what we say, not what we do."
"Pope Francis has been the central figure in ushering peace between religions, especially Israelis and Palestinians. Now today, June 8th, Pope Francis will once again break another barrier as Islamic prayers and readings from the Quran will be heard at the Vatican."
Now they're reading from the book of an antichrist religion. No communion with Islam. Nooo... uh huh.
It's like idolatry. Catholics don't do idolatry, don't worship Mary. That's out of one side of their mouths, I suppose out of the other side they must say, "Don't believe your lying eyes." To whit,
[video=youtube;_jLuvyPL_hg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jLuvyPL_hg[/video]
No idols, nooo... as they lift them up and parade them down Main Street. Seems to be a bit of the old, "Believe what we say, not what we do."
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