Cavemen?
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I believe that the word(s) used for "man" (in Jeremiah 4:25) would more accurately be rendered "righteous man". I am not sure about that and would appreciate productive feedback from someone that is more acquainted with Hebrew. Either way, I don't think it is talking about creation. I would be more inclined to believe that it is referencing the state of mankind leading into Revelation.
Not about the end
The human race does not end in Revelation and Jeremiah 4 is not associated at all with Revelation events
[Isaiah 11; Micah 5; 5; Zechariah 14; Matthew 29-31; 25:31-46; Revelation 20:4; 21]
Jeremiah 4 is most likely a view of the pre-adamite earth ... then the prophet associates the destruction with the future attack upon Israel by the neo-Bablylonians in the 6th century AD .... Nebuchadnezzar destroyed every thing, raised all buildings, burned crops, forests, etc, killed many of Israel and carried the rest into Babylon .... he left nothing untouched
The SDA church teaches that this prophecy in Jeremiah is about Revelation's 1000 year time for Satan to be confined to the earth which they think is called the abyss ..... and earth destroyed with no humans on it
This interpretation is completely false and hatched by E.G. White in her writings called the Great Controversy
The 1000 years will see the Lord's millennial kingdom upon it, not a place for Satan's confinement
Her miss-interpretation is a product of other related ideas including the her church going through the coming tribulation as the 144000 Israelites [replacement theology] and no future millennial kingdom of the Lord's upon the earth [the amil position]
The human race does not end in Revelation and Jeremiah 4 is not associated at all with Revelation events
[Isaiah 11; Micah 5; 5; Zechariah 14; Matthew 29-31; 25:31-46; Revelation 20:4; 21]
Jeremiah 4 is most likely a view of the pre-adamite earth ... then the prophet associates the destruction with the future attack upon Israel by the neo-Bablylonians in the 6th century AD .... Nebuchadnezzar destroyed every thing, raised all buildings, burned crops, forests, etc, killed many of Israel and carried the rest into Babylon .... he left nothing untouched
The SDA church teaches that this prophecy in Jeremiah is about Revelation's 1000 year time for Satan to be confined to the earth which they think is called the abyss ..... and earth destroyed with no humans on it
This interpretation is completely false and hatched by E.G. White in her writings called the Great Controversy
The 1000 years will see the Lord's millennial kingdom upon it, not a place for Satan's confinement
Her miss-interpretation is a product of other related ideas including the her church going through the coming tribulation as the 144000 Israelites [replacement theology] and no future millennial kingdom of the Lord's upon the earth [the amil position]
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The pre-adam earth lasted for 5 days.
Jeremiah 4 is a prophecy. As a prophecy it does not speak about the past, but about the future from the time point of Jeremiah.
Jeremiah 4
1 If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the Lord, return unto me: and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight, then shalt thou not remove.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And thou shalt swear, The Lord liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For thus saith the Lord to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Declare ye in Judah, and publish in Jerusalem; and say, Blow ye the trumpet in the land: cry, gather together, and say, Assemble yourselves, and let us go into the defenced cities.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For this gird you with sackcloth, lament and howl: for the fierce anger of the Lord is not turned back from us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass at that day, saith the Lord, that the heart of the king shall perish, and the heart of the princes; and the priests shall be astonished, and the prophets shall wonder.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then said I, Ah, Lord God! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]At that time shall it be said to this people and to Jerusalem, A dry wind of the high places in the wilderness toward the daughter of my people, not to fan, nor to cleanse,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Even a full wind from those places shall come unto me: now also will I give sentence against them.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For a voice declareth from Dan, and publisheth affliction from mount Ephraim.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Make ye mention to the nations; behold, publish against Jerusalem, that watchers come from a far country, and give out their voice against the cities of Judah.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]As keepers of a field, are they against her round about; because she hath been rebellious against me, saith the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Thy way and thy doings have procured these things unto thee; this is thy wickedness, because it is bitter, because it reacheth unto thine heart.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.
Jeremiah 4 is a prophecy. As a prophecy it does not speak about the past, but about the future from the time point of Jeremiah.
Jeremiah 4
1 If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the Lord, return unto me: and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight, then shalt thou not remove.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And thou shalt swear, The Lord liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For thus saith the Lord to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Declare ye in Judah, and publish in Jerusalem; and say, Blow ye the trumpet in the land: cry, gather together, and say, Assemble yourselves, and let us go into the defenced cities.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For this gird you with sackcloth, lament and howl: for the fierce anger of the Lord is not turned back from us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass at that day, saith the Lord, that the heart of the king shall perish, and the heart of the princes; and the priests shall be astonished, and the prophets shall wonder.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then said I, Ah, Lord God! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]At that time shall it be said to this people and to Jerusalem, A dry wind of the high places in the wilderness toward the daughter of my people, not to fan, nor to cleanse,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Even a full wind from those places shall come unto me: now also will I give sentence against them.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For a voice declareth from Dan, and publisheth affliction from mount Ephraim.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Make ye mention to the nations; behold, publish against Jerusalem, that watchers come from a far country, and give out their voice against the cities of Judah.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]As keepers of a field, are they against her round about; because she hath been rebellious against me, saith the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Thy way and thy doings have procured these things unto thee; this is thy wickedness, because it is bitter, because it reacheth unto thine heart.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.
Yes. Jeremiah was called to announce the next actions of God upon Jerusalem/Judah. Because they had ignored all the warnings from the previous prophets, the next event was to be carried off into slavery in Babylon. But the curse would not stop there. Babylon would be punished afterwards, and all other nations that had a part in the fall of Jerusalem. They would all drink of God cup of wrath, and did in fact do that in Jeremiah's time.
It is a false doctrine that there was a previous creation before Genesis 1:1. Having knowledge of such a thing would serve no purpose, there being no evidence of a story like that, nothing to look at. Such tales help invent comic book ideas like Conan the Barbarian. I'm trying to find who started that pre-adamite heresy, but that was taken up almost simultaneously by several otherwise good ministries. I don't think it was a deliberate distortion, but was a preacher desperate to reconcile the overwhelming problem of evolution and existence of dinosaurs said to be alive millions of years ago. Several preachers got into that on radio broadcasts decades ago, but their names escape me.
It is a false doctrine that there was a previous creation before Genesis 1:1. Having knowledge of such a thing would serve no purpose, there being no evidence of a story like that, nothing to look at. Such tales help invent comic book ideas like Conan the Barbarian. I'm trying to find who started that pre-adamite heresy, but that was taken up almost simultaneously by several otherwise good ministries. I don't think it was a deliberate distortion, but was a preacher desperate to reconcile the overwhelming problem of evolution and existence of dinosaurs said to be alive millions of years ago. Several preachers got into that on radio broadcasts decades ago, but their names escape me.
Many prophets speak about the past and the related future as the narrative moves forward
The purpose, to give the reader significant overview of a particular subject
For example Revelation 12 .... there is both an historical back drop and a future projection
And all things written in the Lord's Word have significant purpose
Can one find things He has revealed about what went on before humans were placed upon the earth .... no doubt
.... look for them, and look around you
The purpose, to give the reader significant overview of a particular subject
For example Revelation 12 .... there is both an historical back drop and a future projection
And all things written in the Lord's Word have significant purpose
Can one find things He has revealed about what went on before humans were placed upon the earth .... no doubt
.... look for them, and look around you
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Hi Nl,
True, the Neanderthals had no written language and left us no books, but they did leave us their bones and their DNA, so they most definitely existed.
You have probably heard that all modern people living north of the Sahara, both in Europe and in Asia and all places in between, carry about 2% Neanderthal DNA. Africans south of the Sahara, however, do not carry Neanderthal DNA at all, which probably means that an early group of Africans migrated from Africa and then evolved the characteristics that we identify with these classic 'cavemen'. Subsequently my own ancestors left Africa, at a much later date, and shared their own genes with the Neanderthal people.
A few have tried to argue in this thread that Neanderthals are a pre-adamic race of men. This seems hardly likely given that Eurasians, at least, do share their DNA.
True, the Neanderthals had no written language and left us no books, but they did leave us their bones and their DNA, so they most definitely existed.
You have probably heard that all modern people living north of the Sahara, both in Europe and in Asia and all places in between, carry about 2% Neanderthal DNA. Africans south of the Sahara, however, do not carry Neanderthal DNA at all, which probably means that an early group of Africans migrated from Africa and then evolved the characteristics that we identify with these classic 'cavemen'. Subsequently my own ancestors left Africa, at a much later date, and shared their own genes with the Neanderthal people.
A few have tried to argue in this thread that Neanderthals are a pre-adamic race of men. This seems hardly likely given that Eurasians, at least, do share their DNA.
First of all, the notion of ancient humans needs to be clarified. By this I mean the last 6 million years of Hominids since we diverged from the other great apes, or if I specifically identity our genus "Homo," meaning "like us." Where would you draw the line between human and not-human?
The the idea of "cavemen" was a reasonable mistake back in the 1800s. Open air exposed sites are easily destroyed by erosion, but a cave protects remains much better. So hardly any open air sites of early humans exist. Many of the sites we have excavated are under the collapsed ceiling rock of caves that are no longer evident. Here is an example of a rock shelter site with the overhang totally eroded away:
Now we have evidence uncovered by major earth moving projects for roads, dams, etc... Below is an example of a recently exposed open-air site dating to the late paleolithic and just published; The open-air site was buried under a lava flow sealing it from erosion.
D. S. Adler, et al
2014 "Early Levallois technology and the Lower to Middle Paleolithic transition in the Southern Caucasus" Science 26 September 2014: vol. 345 no. 6204 pp. 1609-1613
The significance of this report is that the time period was when modern H. spaiens were leaving Africa, and encountering the earlier pioneer H. Neanderthals. In other known sites from Africa there was a clear break in tool building methods, and inventory. At the the Hrazdan Gorge site pictured above, there was a mix of tool types. African sites of about the same age tend to be from one group, or another and are not a mixture of traditions, and presumably people.
The the idea of "cavemen" was a reasonable mistake back in the 1800s. Open air exposed sites are easily destroyed by erosion, but a cave protects remains much better. So hardly any open air sites of early humans exist. Many of the sites we have excavated are under the collapsed ceiling rock of caves that are no longer evident. Here is an example of a rock shelter site with the overhang totally eroded away:
Now we have evidence uncovered by major earth moving projects for roads, dams, etc... Below is an example of a recently exposed open-air site dating to the late paleolithic and just published; The open-air site was buried under a lava flow sealing it from erosion.
D. S. Adler, et al
2014 "Early Levallois technology and the Lower to Middle Paleolithic transition in the Southern Caucasus" Science 26 September 2014: vol. 345 no. 6204 pp. 1609-1613
The significance of this report is that the time period was when modern H. spaiens were leaving Africa, and encountering the earlier pioneer H. Neanderthals. In other known sites from Africa there was a clear break in tool building methods, and inventory. At the the Hrazdan Gorge site pictured above, there was a mix of tool types. African sites of about the same age tend to be from one group, or another and are not a mixture of traditions, and presumably people.
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I have excavated dogs buried with obvious care found among human remains. This hardly implies that dogs were human. The nonsense from ICR is a good reason to disregard anything they write. The scientific article they supposedly read, "Late Neanderthals in Southeastern Iberia: Sima de las Palomas del Cabezo Gordo, Murcia, Spain" if read honestly is much more interesting than the creationist sham report. The recovered human remains were in pretty bad condition due to cave-ins crushing the remains. I wonder if some of the people might even have been killed by falling rock. The best preserved bits were teeth, a few jaw fragments, and a finger bone. The finger bone, and the jaw were essentially Neanderthal. The teeth had a mixture of Neanderthal, and modern H. sapiens characteristics. There was no indication that "Neanderthals were Modern Men," or that they were buried together.
This is significant for two reasons; first we have a good idea of how we modern humans carried a small number of genes from our predecessors. These genes are not found in the female mitochondria. This means that modern H. sapiens did not successfully mate Neanderthal females, and the Neanderthal males could mate H. sapiens females. This 2008 paper showed how there were late survivors (~40,000 years old) from the Neanderthals in Europe, but that they had also some attributes probably inherited from H. sapiens. There was no indication to support the false claims that "Neanderthals were Modern Men," or that they were found buried together. But, since we know that they did interbreed apparently with occasional success, we might some day find them together.
This is why I never trust a creationist "report," and always read the original scientific publications.
This is significant for two reasons; first we have a good idea of how we modern humans carried a small number of genes from our predecessors. These genes are not found in the female mitochondria. This means that modern H. sapiens did not successfully mate Neanderthal females, and the Neanderthal males could mate H. sapiens females. This 2008 paper showed how there were late survivors (~40,000 years old) from the Neanderthals in Europe, but that they had also some attributes probably inherited from H. sapiens. There was no indication to support the false claims that "Neanderthals were Modern Men," or that they were found buried together. But, since we know that they did interbreed apparently with occasional success, we might some day find them together.
This is why I never trust a creationist "report," and always read the original scientific publications.
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Artificial cranial deformation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Back then their minds were missing a few marbles. They tried to make themselves to look unique, by putting bands around the children heads and leave the bands on until they has reached a certain age. Then they comes out looking deform. We still has people in these times that does all sorts of stuff to make themselves look unique or be unique. Some want to be vampires or some type of creatures.
Ussher is the major player for YECs, the number one guy. Although some YECs don't even know it.
Even your favorite sacred site, Institute for Creation Research, says so in this article:
https://www.icr.org/article/8023/
Note the last sentence: "Ussher's research merits our highest respect and serves as a logical foundation for us to build upon today."
And that means that you YECs stick to the world is 6,000 years old nonsense, no matter what.
Unfortunately, you have the same dilemma that William Jennings Bryan had in the Scopes Trial. You can not defend your position without looking like a fool.
Even your favorite sacred site, Institute for Creation Research, says so in this article:
https://www.icr.org/article/8023/
Note the last sentence: "Ussher's research merits our highest respect and serves as a logical foundation for us to build upon today."
And that means that you YECs stick to the world is 6,000 years old nonsense, no matter what.
Unfortunately, you have the same dilemma that William Jennings Bryan had in the Scopes Trial. You can not defend your position without looking like a fool.
Artificial cranial deformation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Back then their minds were missing a few marbles.
I am sorry for that poor little kid. His face was strapped to a board, and cords were tied around his head. His upper front teeth were ripped out. His jaw was smashed out into a freakish flat face. His molars misaligned and would have caused constant pain.
He died around puberty. Probably a release from agony. All for religion.
He died around puberty. Probably a release from agony. All for religion.
