Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?

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Lookupnotback

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Sep 26, 2020
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Yes and no. As applied to Christ and the apostles all miracles were signs and wonders to confirm that (1) Christ was indeed the Messiah of Israel and (2) the apostles were indeed preaching the true Gospel given by God to men. Scriptures will back this up.

At the same time, God is performing countless miracles daily, but they are not signs. The days of signs, wonders, and miracles are over. Now the just shall live by faith, and we walk by faith and not by sight. The preaching of the Gospel is designed to generate saving faith, since unbelievers will not believe the Law and the Prophets (or the Gospel) even though one rose from the dead.
...it is disturbing how charismatics chase after emotional highs and don’t see all the real wonders foing on around us each day in just the natural laws mysteriously holding everything together for starts, or your roof over your head or meal in your belly, or what about peace that gods beyond all understanding flowing from within you? Charismatics have no idea of that as they are continually chasing after short-lived emotional highs, ever see them in a store isle dealing with the pressures of life? Dead, black eyes with no light coming from them, you will know them by their works for sure....
 

Lookupnotback

Active member
Sep 26, 2020
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Show us where the Bible teaches anything remotely similar to this idea.



This is a strange false dichotomy, since having faith is intertwined with miracles. Jesus cast out a demon of a woman who had faith. Peter asked Jesus to bid him come to Him on the water. Jesus did, until he doubted, then he sank, and the Lord Jesus rescued him.
You looking for fireworks in your quotes to build you up and yet they are not from us but actually Jesus manifestations of “his” own thing and not something we conjure up ourselves for greatness.
 

Lookupnotback

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Sep 26, 2020
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Why should I care about definitions you make up and do not explain.

The same Greek word is translated 'sign' in one place and 'miracle' in another. I do not see where the Bible makes the distinction you are making. If you can show me some scripture, please do so.
...signs and wonders....
The bible made the distinction right there, this stuff is simple, your need of manufactured emotional highs is the problem.
 
Jun 18, 2020
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Yes, you do, if you are going to be seen as biblical you need to provide the Biblical authority to support your position, if not then you are a troll and a hater :) .

I will give you another chance Please explain how 1cor chapter 13:8-10 says that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased?

You suggest you are more Biblical than I and those who are Pentecostal, please I am waiting for you to do so?

I welcome you to bring the word of God right here right now and show us Biblically how :

  1. the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased and not for today
  2. How they stopped according to 1cor 13:8-10
  3. why a Christian should not desire the Gifts of the Holy Spirit as paul said.
You don't have to use Mormons, Muslims, the occult, pagans, or voodoo ok, Just the word of God Please I will wait?

PST 2:54pm 4/16/21
It is you who is injecting your bias into the verses. Here are the verses:

1 Corinthians 13:8–10
8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

These verses clearly state that the gifts will end when "the perfect comes", what is the "prefect" we cannot be sure. But whatever it is it's something that would come in Paul's future. Was it 97 AD, 112 AD, 200 AD or April 8, 1584 AD? If Paul thought it was the return of Jesus Christ he would have written it so.

Prove to me that Paul meant Jesus from the Bible only and not any Holy Spirit esoteric knowledge. If you cannot then I suggest you are the troll and the hater.

Here is your chance, these are the verses you picked, why should someone believe Paul meant the return of Christ and not the coming of the Holy Bible.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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...it is disturbing how charismatics chase after emotional highs and don’t see all the real wonders foing on around us each day in just the natural laws mysteriously holding everything together for starts, or your roof over your head or meal in your belly, or what about peace that gods beyond all understanding flowing from within you? Charismatics have no idea of that as they are continually chasing after short-lived emotional highs, ever see them in a store isle dealing with the pressures of life? Dead, black eyes with no light coming from them, you will know them by their works for sure....
SOME charismatics. Don't tar everyone with the same brush.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
18,911
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Prove to me that Paul meant Jesus from the Bible only and not any Holy Spirit esoteric knowledge. If you cannot then I suggest you are the troll and the hater.
Firstly, using bold-face type for entire sentences just comes across as yelling.

Secondly, using such antagonistic language as "If you cannot then... you are the troll and the hater" is contrary both to Christian fellowship and to reasonable discussion. It condemns you as well as the other.

Thirdly, your entire demand is nonsensical and silly. "Prove 'X' to me, or you are a troll and hater." There is no logical connection between the two concepts.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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Are not the signs connected with going into all the world and preaching the Gospel to every creature? All it needs is 5th Grade comprehension skills to work that out. Making the passage read that the signs are just for Israel is reading into the passage something that just isn't there. The passage doesn't say, "And these signs shall follow Israelite believers." It clearly indicates believers in all the world, not just Israel.

I wonder if Christianity would have been so well established and stood the rest of time if there hadn’t been all of those miraculous deeds signs and wonders accomplished in scripture ?

“And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken. Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

Behold, I and the children whom the Lord hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the Lord of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭8:14-16,

in order for Christianity to be spread through the world it had to first be established immovable so that certain men believed fully .

when Jesus and the apostles were doing miracles it was so people would believe the gospel . I think it’s important to establish the part where God does miracles through believers to the point of spreading the gospel and having people receive it in faith

the establishment of the gospel in such miraculous ways with so many witnesses , assured that they would find the importance of carrying the great commission to the world

I agree with you what’s changed in my view isn’t anything from Gods word but it’s that there is a lack of faith in man now .

without faith even Jesus couldn’t do miracles for people because they didn’t believe. Belief fades when the doctrine is altered and watered down because faith has to be what God said

as we hear less of the true gospel our faith fades

“I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭18:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think we don’t see the workings of the Holy Ghost because we’ve lost faith in the true things
 
Jun 18, 2020
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Show us where the Bible teaches anything remotely similar to this idea.



This is a strange false dichotomy, since having faith is intertwined with miracles. Jesus cast out a demon of a woman who had faith. Peter asked Jesus to bid him come to Him on the water. Jesus did, until he doubted, then he sank, and the Lord Jesus rescued him.
The statement "The days of signs, wonders, and miracles are over." is a issue of prima facie. Why would he "need" to prove its validity from the Bible or any other reference source?

"This is a strange false dichotomy, since having faith is intertwined with miracles."

This is not a strange or false dichotomy. Jesus expected faith without miracles in John 20:24-29. Are miracles used to produce faith...of course but faith without miracles is labeled as blessed.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
15,629
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Show us where the Bible teaches anything remotely similar to this idea.
The fact that James tells Christians to go to the elders of the church so that they may pray for healing implies that healing miracles would not continue through miracle workers within the churches, but miracles would come about through prayers (as they continue to do so to this day). Furthermore, you need to study the writings of the Apostolic Fathers to see that not one of them claimed to be an apostle, or a prophets, or a miracle worker. This was shortly after the demise of the apostles.
This is a strange false dichotomy, since having faith is intertwined with miracles. Jesus cast out a demon of a woman who had faith. Peter asked Jesus to bid him come to Him on the water. Jesus did, until he doubted, then he sank, and the Lord Jesus rescued him.
As I already pointed out, signs, wonders, and miracles accompanied Christ and the apostles. That was a divine necessity. So while He was on earth, people flocked to Him for miracles of healing and the casting out of demons. That was then. If it were true today, we would have Christian miracle workers going out daily into every hospital, and simply healing people and sending them home. Since that is not the case, you have your answer right there.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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As I already pointed out, signs, wonders, and miracles accompanied Christ and the apostles. That was a divine necessity. So while He was on earth, people flocked to Him for miracles of healing and the casting out of demons. That was then. If it were true today, we would have Christian miracle workers going out daily into every hospital, and simply healing people and sending them home. Since that is not the case, you have your answer right there.
You really need to do some homework on logical fallacies.

Was everyone in Israel during the early first century healed of their diseases and infirmities? No. Therefore, there were no gifts of healing.

That's your "logic". It is a strawman argument, and has no validity.
 
Jun 18, 2020
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Firstly, using bold-face type for entire sentences just comes across as yelling.

I use bold type because my eyes struggle without it. I have poor vision and even with special screen filters it is hard to see the writing. I was aware of all CAPS meaning yelling but not bold. I will try to remember in the future to drop the bold after finishing a sentence when reponsing to you. BTW you are the first person to point this out.

Secondly, using such antagonistic language as "If you cannot then... you are the troll and the hater" is contrary both to Christian fellowship and to reasonable discussion. It condemns you as well as the other.

Thirdly, your entire demand is nonsensical and silly. "Prove 'X' to me, or you are a troll and hater." There is no logical connection between the two concepts.
On these two points I was mirroring CS1's mindset in the hope that he would see how unreasonable he was being. If you look again you should see this. Sometimes seeing your own mentality used toward yourself is rather eye opening and helpful.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,526
113
It is you who is injecting your bias into the verses. Here are the verses:

1 Corinthians 13:8–10
8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

These verses clearly state that the gifts will end when "the perfect comes", what is the "prefect" we cannot be sure. But whatever it is it's something that would come in Paul's future. Was it 97 AD, 112 AD, 200 AD or April 8, 1584 AD? If Paul thought it was the return of Jesus Christ he would have written it so.

Prove to me that Paul meant Jesus from the Bible only and not any Holy Spirit esoteric knowledge. If you cannot then I suggest you are the troll and the hater.

Here is your chance, these are the verses you picked, why should someone believe Paul meant the return of Christ and not the coming of the Holy Bible.
Skeptics will remain skeptic. Unbelievers will continue in unbelief. Believers will receive and be blessed. God in His divine wisdom has seen fit not to reveal to those who do not want to believe some things so they will have room to remain in unbelief.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
18,911
10,441
113
On these two points I was mirroring CS1's mindset in the hope that he would see how unreasonable he was being. If you look again you should see this. Sometimes seeing your own mentality used toward yourself is rather eye opening and helpful.
I see... and both of you need to go to your own corners for a bit. ;)
 
Jun 18, 2020
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Skeptics will remain skeptic. Unbelievers will continue in unbelief. Believers will receive and be blessed. God in His divine wisdom has seen fit not to reveal to those who do not want to believe some things so they will have room to remain in unbelief.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
In other words no biblical response. Just esoteric knowledge. I get it.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,526
113
In other words no biblical response. Just esoteric knowledge. I get it.
Not esoteric just maturity. Not everyone can take strong meat. Some only milk and that's ok.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Mar 17, 2021
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I try stick to the bible . Thanks.
Yep. The New Testament certainly points very clearly to signs, wonders, and miracles accompanying the preaching of the Gospel right through to the present day and beyond to the Day of Judgment.

Of course, there will be the false signs and wonders done by the AntiChrist, but these won't be connected to the preaching of the Gospel. They will be there to point to him and not to Christ.

But it is a clear fact that when there are miraculous healing accompanying the preaching of the Gospel the result is that many turn to Christ, because they have seen that the Gospel was not just with words, but with the power of God.

"For the kingdom of God is not in words, but in power" (1 Corinthians 4:20).
 
Mar 17, 2021
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I wonder if Christianity would have been so well established and stood the rest of time if there hadn’t been all of those miraculous deeds signs and wonders accomplished in scripture ?

“And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken. Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

Behold, I and the children whom the Lord hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the Lord of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭8:14-16,

in order for Christianity to be spread through the world it had to first be established immovable so that certain men believed fully .

when Jesus and the apostles were doing miracles it was so people would believe the gospel . I think it’s important to establish the part where God does miracles through believers to the point of spreading the gospel and having people receive it in faith

the establishment of the gospel in such miraculous ways with so many witnesses , assured that they would find the importance of carrying the great commission to the world

I agree with you what’s changed in my view isn’t anything from Gods word but it’s that there is a lack of faith in man now .

without faith even Jesus couldn’t do miracles for people because they didn’t believe. Belief fades when the doctrine is altered and watered down because faith has to be what God said

as we hear less of the true gospel our faith fades

“I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭18:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think we don’t see the workings of the Holy Ghost because we’ve lost faith in the true things
You're right. Our society is becoming neo-pagan. If the pagans of the 1st Century needed to witness demonstration of the power of God through miracles of healing, words of knowledge, powerful prophecy, then it is clear that our neo-pagan society needs to witness the same.
As we see the decline and absence of the supernatural accompanying the preaching of the Gospel, we see a compensating rise in occult supernatural and those who reject Christ and His miracle working power, are embracing the occult in great numbers.

Even in churches where dependences is placed more of ceremony, ritual, and talking-based programmes, occult practices and sorcery are becoming more obvious. All we have to do is see videos of Hillsong and Bethel to see how paganism and occult has become an integral part of the worship, while the Gospel and Christ are put into the background. It is as if churches are worshiping another God, and putting their faith in another Christ, rather than the God and Christ of the Bible.
I have seen the video of a man in a large mega-church gathering, who was prophesied over that he was blessed of God, but when he told the people to put their trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross, the "prophet" told him he had a demon and had him thrown out of the meeting! That "prophet" and the mega-church leaders are promoting the worship of another god and another christ and bringing condemnation on themselves.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
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Yep. The New Testament certainly points very clearly to signs, wonders, and miracles accompanying the preaching of the Gospel right through to the present day and beyond to the Day of Judgment.

Of course, there will be the false signs and wonders done by the AntiChrist, but these won't be connected to the preaching of the Gospel. They will be there to point to him and not to Christ.

But it is a clear fact that when there are miraculous healing accompanying the preaching of the Gospel the result is that many turn to Christ, because they have seen that the Gospel was not just with words, but with the power of God.

"For the kingdom of God is not in words, but in power" (1 Corinthians 4:20).
Rom 1
16¶For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for IT is the POWER of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
 
Mar 17, 2021
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Rom 1
16¶For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for IT is the POWER of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Of course, one has to wonder why Paul said that the Gospel of Christ is the power of God. He was the one who said that the kingdom of God is not just in talk but in power. He told the Corinthians that he did not come with the enticing words of man's wisdom but with demonstration of the Spirit and with power. Also, continuing miracles accompanied his ministry wherever he went.
So it is obvious from the New Testament that the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit accompanied the preaching of the Gospel to show that it wasn't just a lot of religious talk, but to show that the miracle working power of the Spirit was a part of it.

So I base my view on the whole book of Acts describing Paul's ministry, rather than upon one single verse taken out of the context of what he said in other places, and of his ministry as a whole.