Chosen by God - A study in Election

[iamsoandso]

Who are these who are appointed to stumble ? https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_peter/2-8.htm

 

[cv5]

Let’s take a look at the first mention principle. Here election is tied to service. Jesus Christ was God’s chosen servant.

Isaiah 42:
1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

Again in Romans 9 it is tied to service.

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

The biblical purpose of election is service. God has elect angels for service.

First example was reference to Christ the elect. No salvation required there.
Your second example shows that the one who is elected is NOT the one who serves.

Anyway, I'm looking for examples of the specific term and concept of election as it pertains to Christian salvation. I am constraining myself to that limited extent, because that is the matter at hand as it relates to the OP.

 

[EleventhHour]

No disagree.....elect is descriptive!

So obviously descriptive, yet this one word "elect" is twisted to build an entire false doctrine of I am special, I was elected... I have news for them... it ain't so.

 

[cv5]

So obviously descriptive, yet this one word "elect" is twisted to build an entire false doctrine of I am special, I was elected... I have news for them... it ain't so.

There is human pride creeping in again to your particular point of view. Election by God destroys pride and destroys someone feeling as if they are special. Why pray tell? Because you had nothing whatsoever to do with it.

 

[John146]

First example was reference to Christ the elect. No salvation required there.
Your second example shows that the one who is elected is NOT the one who serves.

Anyway, I'm looking for examples of the specific term and concept of election as it pertains to Christian salvation. I am constraining myself to that limited extent, because that is the matter at hand as it relates to the OP.

Election is always found in a temporal setting. Notice salvation is not the topic of discussion in Romans 9 and also note that the "decrees of God" in (verses 12 and 13), happen in time. Verse 12 was said when she conceived...(verse 10, and 13) is a quote from (Mal. 1:2,3) again in time. No eternal election is found in the passage.

 

[EleventhHour]

There is human pride creeping in again to your particular point of view. Election by God destroys pride and destroys someone feeling as if they are special. Why pray tell? Because you had nothing whatsoever to do with it.

The entry point is the same for every person as noted below....... so your point of not having anything to do with is not even scriptural and is not required ... the Calvinist system is unjust and makes God morally ambigous.

dia the GOSPEL MUST BE PRESENTED and then a CONSCIENCE decision to accept and believe it must come to pass for one to be saved!

 

[EleventhHour]

Let me ask you this: What do YOU do with the term and concept of election? It is after all unquestionably biblical and extremely important.

I have to tell you that by examining the "anti-Calvinist" posts, all I see is a complete dismissal and avoidance of the entire concept and term "election" (as it relates to salvation!) altogether. Just like so much theological junk in the trunk.

No one is dismissing, the term is being understood for what it really means in light of the correct Gospel message..... not what Augustine and John Calvin wanted it to mean.

 

[EleventhHour]

It is actually hilariously tragic...GOD WILLED me to be saved and POOF I WAS.....so false....if that ia the case then no one is lost....God would have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and come to the knowledge of the truth....they are too false and obstinate against the truth to see their own error....it is sickening and straight from the pit!

Since it is so ubiquitous and appeals to human pride... as someone once said to me .... it is Satan's finest hour.

They argue ... it is all of God.. we cannot boast...REALLY!!!

Consider that coming to God in all humility, reckoning there is no amount of good works or righteous living that can be done to merit salvation and having to lay down one's pride completely............... surely there is nothing to boast about there ... when contrasted to God chose me POOF! and left others to burn?

 

[Crustyone]

Some of us were selected/elected to be Sons of God before the creation of the earth. Ephesians 1:4-6 (4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and without defect before him in love, 5 having predestined us for adoption as children through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his desire,) [From the New International Version (NIV) bible]

 

[EleventhHour]

Some of us were selected/elected to be Sons of God before the creation of the earth. Ephesians 1:4-6 (4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and without defect before him in love, 5 having predestined us for adoption as children through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his desire,)

Some of us were selected

There is amble evidence in this thread to demonstrate otherwise.

 

[cv5]

Election is always found in a temporal setting. Notice salvation is not the topic of discussion in Romans 9 and also note that the "decrees of God" in (verses 12 and 13), happen in time. Verse 12 was said when she conceived...(verse 10, and 13) is a quote from (Mal. 1:2,3) again in time. No eternal election is found in the passage.

It is perfectly clear from the scriptures that Christ Himself was elect before the foundation of the world. It is perfectly clear from many many other scriptures that Christians are likewise elect from before the foundation of the world. I am not going to repost these scriptures over and over again.

 

[cv5]

No one is dismissing, the term is being understood for what it really means in light of the correct Gospel message..... not what Augustine and John Calvin wanted it to mean.

What they really mean is what they say. In the plain reading of the text, no interpretation required.

 

[cv5]

Some of us were selected/elected to be Sons of God before the creation of the earth. Ephesians 1:4-6 (4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and without defect before him in love, 5 having predestined us for adoption as children through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his desire,) [From the New International Version (NIV) bible]

My friend that IS INDEED the plain meaning of the text. Honestly I just don't not understand the confusion here. Furthermore in my opinion Eph 1:4-6 is seminal doctrine! In fact it is part of the mystery of the Church, which Paul was commissioned to reveal! That which was not known in times past!

 

[Nehemiah6]

It is perfectly clear from the scriptures of Christ Himself was elect before the foundation of the world.

You continue to confuse election for ministry and service (Christ, Moses, Paul, the apostles, etc) and election for salvation.

ELECTION FOR SALVATION IS IMPOSSIBLE BECAUSE IT CONTROVERTS AND SUBVERTS THE GOSPEL.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Those who teach that election is for salvation make Christ a liar. Think about that and how He will hold those people in account for controverting and subverting the Gospel. There are many more passages to support this passage.

 

[cv5]

There is amble evidence in this thread to demonstrate otherwise.

What you call ample evidence I call paucity and poverty.

Please tell us what this text means in its plain reading:

Rom 8:28-30
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew [[[predetermined relationship in eternity past]]], He also predestined [[[Gods eternal plan from eternity past]]] to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined [[[first in order of sequence]]], these He also called [[[second in order of sequence]]]; whom He called, these He also justified [[[third in order of sequence]]]; and whom He justified, these He also glorified [[[fourth in order of sequence]]].

Let me say this: by my reckoning, there is no place in the New Testament where being called PRECEDES being elect/predestinated. Only those elect, only those foreknown, only those predestinated, only those appointed go on to complete the sequence of called, justified, glorified.

And one other point......Who's doing the calling to begin with? We certainly are not meeting God halfway when He is doing the calling are we? No call no salvation IMO.

Here are some bonus scriptures for you to ponder.

Matt 13:11
He replied, "The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

John 6:44
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:37
Everyone the Father gives Me [[[first of all, then they]]] will come [[[many of them yet future, and ALL CHRISTIANS not yet saved]]] to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away.

Yes, the Father giving to the Son occurs long before people are saved, before most are even born. Certainly includes all Christians born in this day and age.

 

[cv5]

You continue to confuse election for ministry and service (Christ, Moses, Paul, the apostles, etc) and election for salvation.

ELECTION FOR SALVATION IS IMPOSSIBLE BECAUSE IT CONTROVERTS AND SUBVERTS THE GOSPEL.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Those who teach that election is for salvation make Christ a liar. Think about that and how He will hold those people in account for controverting and subverting the Gospel. There are many more passages to support this passage.

Nope. Sorry this business that election is ONLY related to service is false.

 

[Bbrdrd]

What you call ample evidence I call paucity and poverty.

Please tell us what this text means in its plain reading:

Rom 8:28-30
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew [[[predetermined relationship in eternity past]]], He also predestined [[[Gods eternal plan from eternity past]]] to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined [[[first in order of sequence]]], these He also called [[[second in order of sequence]]]; whom He called, these He also justified [[[third in order of sequence]]]; and whom He justified, these He also glorified [[[fourth in order of sequence]]].

Let me say this: by my reckoning, there is no place in the New Testament where being called PRECEDES being elect/predestinated. Only those elect, only those foreknown, only those predestinated, only those appointed go on to complete the sequence of called, justified, glorified.

And one other point......Who's doing the calling to begin with? We certainly are not meeting God halfway when He is doing the calling are we? No call no salvation IMO.

Here are some bonus scriptures for you to ponder.

Matt 13:11
He replied, "The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

John 6:44
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:37
Everyone the Father gives Me [[[first of all, then they]]] will come [[[many of them yet future, and ALL CHRISTIANS not yet saved]]] to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away.

Yes, the Father giving to the Son occurs long before people are saved, before most are even born. Certainly includes all Christians born in this day and age.

As Iconoclast pointed out in his contradictory point, foreknew does not mean predetermined. So right there you're not going with the plain text but inserting your Calvinist flavor to words to read the doctrine into the text. If it really were so obviously plain-text you wouldn't need to editorialize and highlight the words you think are saying what you want it to read. Instead you interpret and call it the plain text reading.

And John 6:44 is a great example of where context changes it from the Calvinist twist. Just read John 6:45 and you will see Jesus linking the thought in 6:44 with God teaching all. So the contextual read is not a claim that God is selecting individuals for salvation but a rebuke of the audience for failing to submit to God's teaching which is presented to all.

Your citations aren't evidence just proof texts without a contextual understanding.

 

[cv5]

You continue to confuse election for ministry and service (Christ, Moses, Paul, the apostles, etc) and election for salvation.

ELECTION FOR SALVATION IS IMPOSSIBLE BECAUSE IT CONTROVERTS AND SUBVERTS THE GOSPEL.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Those who teach that election is for salvation make Christ a liar. Think about that and how He will hold those people in account for controverting and subverting the Gospel. There are many more passages to support this passage.

We are already aware of the fact that the term whosoever is not actually in the Greek.

As Iconoclast pointed out in his contradictory point, foreknew does not mean predetermined. So right there you're not going with the plain text but inserting your Calvinist flavor to words to read the doctrine into the text. If it really were so obviously plain-text you wouldn't need to editorialize and highlight the words you think are saying what you want it to read. Instead you interpret and call it the plain text reading.

And John 6:44 is a great example of where context changes it from the Calvinist twist. Just read John 6:45 and you will see Jesus linking the thought in 6:44 with God teaching all. So the contextual read is not a claim that God is selecting individuals for salvation but a rebuke of the audience for failing to submit to God's teaching which is presented to all.

Your citations aren't evidence just proof texts without a contextual understanding.

I disagree. There is every reason to believe that foreknew constitutes a predetermined relationship.

 

[Bbrdrd]

We are already aware of the fact that the term whosoever is not actually in the Greek.

I disagree. There is every reason to believe that foreknew constitutes a predetermined relationship.

You may disagree, but the disagreement demonstrates an interpretation. It's going beyond the plain words of Scripture into your personal reading of it and requires an interpretation.

 

[cv5]

As Iconoclast pointed out in his contradictory point, foreknew does not mean predetermined. So right there you're not going with the plain text but inserting your Calvinist flavor to words to read the doctrine into the text. If it really were so obviously plain-text you wouldn't need to editorialize and highlight the words you think are saying what you want it to read. Instead you interpret and call it the plain text reading.

And John 6:44 is a great example of where context changes it from the Calvinist twist. Just read John 6:45 and you will see Jesus linking the thought in 6:44 with God teaching all. So the contextual read is not a claim that God is selecting individuals for salvation but a rebuke of the audience for failing to submit to God's teaching which is presented to all.

Your citations aren't evidence just proof texts without a contextual understanding.

John 6:44 is a statement by Jesus where he reveals to us that He understands why it is that certain people do not hearken to his teaching. Same with John 6:37. It isn't Jesus that is confused about predestination or election, that's for sure.