Chosen by God - A study in Election

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Status
Not open for further replies.

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,688
8,227
113
Once again taking verses out of context to twist them to suit your doctrine. The whole dialogue in John 8 betrays that 8:47 is an indictment not a statement of God choosing, the Jews were claiming they were Abraham's children and thereby God's children and Jesus was making it clear that if that were the case they would have recognized Him.

How about rather than doing drive-by theology where you take verses out of context and create meaning for them you actually take the time to sit and read the narratives in context and figure out what is being said? Your whole theology is built on pretext.
You are stuffing scriptures into your little mental filing folders again, yet refuse to compare scripture with scripture, whereby you could know the truth. What is common among John chapters 6 chapter 8 and chapter 10? Jesus is confronting UNBELIEF!

In Ch8, Jesus is confronting unbelief. Then makes an assessment of why belief does not occur.
"You are of your father the devil" (not of the spiritual chosen seed of Abraham)

In Ch6, Jesus is confronting unbelief. Then makes an assessment of why belief does not occur.
"Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away."
"No one is able to come to Me unless the Father, the onehaving sent Me, draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day."
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him"

In Ch10 v.25, Jesus is confronting unbelief. Then makes an assessment of why belief does not occur.
"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you."

Since all of these statements are infallibly true, we can compound them and make the following claim:
-Unbelievers are not the spiritual seed of Abraham and are of their father the devil,
whereas believers are the spiritual seed of Abraham
-Unbelievers are not drawn or called by God the Father, whereas believers are drawn and called
by the Father
-Unbelievers are not Jesus' sheep, where as believers are Jesus sheep hear His voice and follow
Him

I am waiting to hear any arguments to the contrary. Anybody? Are the above-mentioned statements true or false?

Furthermore these sweeping concepts are fleshed out to their ultimate and final form in the epistles of Paul to whom belong to the unveiling of the mystery of the Church.
 

NOV25

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2019
977
386
63

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,688
8,227
113
You mean besides my references to Joshua and Acts you ignored? You think Jesus was mistaken when He said "seek first the kingdom of God?" Choice is written all over the Bible, and only the willfully blind fail to see it.
And the Bible clearly declares that only choice that really matters is God's choice. He is after all the one doing the saving. According to His predetermined plan that existed from eternity past before the foundation of the world.

God chose Abraham God chose Isaac God chose Jacob God chose the nation Israel God chose David God chose the prophets God chose John the Baptist God chose the Apostles God chose the woman at the well God chose Paul.........
And God chose every single solitary believer that ever was and that ever will be.

If you have a problem with that you can argue with the apostle Paul.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,688
8,227
113
You are stuffing scriptures into your little mental filing folders again, yet refuse to compare scripture with scripture, whereby you could know the truth. What is common among John chapters 6 chapter 8 and chapter 10? Jesus is confronting UNBELIEF!

In Ch8, Jesus is confronting unbelief. Then makes an assessment of why belief does not occur.
"You are of your father the devil" (not of the spiritual chosen seed of Abraham)

In Ch6, Jesus is confronting unbelief. Then makes an assessment of why belief does not occur.
"Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away."
"No one is able to come to Me unless the Father, the onehaving sent Me, draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day."
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him"

In Ch10 v.25, Jesus is confronting unbelief. Then makes an assessment of why belief does not occur.
"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you."

Since all of these statements are infallibly true, we can compound them and make the following claim:
-Unbelievers are not the spiritual seed of Abraham and are of their father the devil,
whereas believers are the spiritual seed of Abraham
-Unbelievers are not drawn or called by God the Father, whereas believers are drawn and called
by the Father
-Unbelievers are not Jesus' sheep, where as believers are Jesus sheep hear His voice and follow
Him

I am waiting to hear any arguments to the contrary. Anybody? Are the above-mentioned statements true or false?

Furthermore these sweeping concepts are fleshed out to their ultimate and final form in the epistles of Paul to whom belong to the unveiling of the mystery of the Church.
One more addition........

John 6:65
Then Jesus said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him.”
 
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
425
83
And the Bible clearly declares that only choice that really matters is God's choice. He is after all the one doing the saving. According to His predetermined plan that existed from eternity past before the foundation of the world.

God chose Abraham God chose Isaac God chose Jacob God chose the nation Israel God chose David God chose the prophets God chose John the Baptist God chose the Apostles God chose the woman at the well God chose Paul.........
And God chose every single solitary believer that ever was and that ever will be.

If you have a problem with that you can argue with the apostle Paul.
The apostle Paul isn't the one who put forth particular election, such a notion wasn't present until men started overlaying Biblical revelation with humanist individualism which is why it wasn't an issue until Calvin and why the heresy bears Calvin's name.

You speak of wanting Scripture, but then when you are given Scripture rather than dealing with it you pontificate on your doctrine. It's quite clear all you have is pretext built on modern assumptions.
 
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
425
83
You are stuffing scriptures into your little mental filing folders again, yet refuse to compare scripture with scripture, whereby you could know the truth. What is common among John chapters 6 chapter 8 and chapter 10? Jesus is confronting UNBELIEF!

In Ch8, Jesus is confronting unbelief. Then makes an assessment of why belief does not occur.
"You are of your father the devil" (not of the spiritual chosen seed of Abraham)

In Ch6, Jesus is confronting unbelief. Then makes an assessment of why belief does not occur.
"Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away."
"No one is able to come to Me unless the Father, the onehaving sent Me, draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day."
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him"

In Ch10 v.25, Jesus is confronting unbelief. Then makes an assessment of why belief does not occur.
"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you."

Since all of these statements are infallibly true, we can compound them and make the following claim:
-Unbelievers are not the spiritual seed of Abraham and are of their father the devil,
whereas believers are the spiritual seed of Abraham
-Unbelievers are not drawn or called by God the Father, whereas believers are drawn and called
by the Father
-Unbelievers are not Jesus' sheep, where as believers are Jesus sheep hear His voice and follow
Him

I am waiting to hear any arguments to the contrary. Anybody? Are the above-mentioned statements true or false?

Furthermore these sweeping concepts are fleshed out to their ultimate and final form in the epistles of Paul to whom belong to the unveiling of the mystery of the Church.
You've got this all backwards because you're begining with the pretext. All of the passages you mention are clearly denouncing the notion of Jewish identity as God's people due to heredity. The idea is not that God picks losers and winners, but that simply because the audience are children of Abraham does not make them children of God because children of God reckon to the teaching of the Father.
Yet for your doctrine you put the horse before the cart.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,688
8,227
113
The apostle Paul isn't the one who put forth particular election, such a notion wasn't present until men started overlaying Biblical revelation with humanist individualism which is why it wasn't an issue until Calvin and why the heresy bears Calvin's name.

You speak of wanting Scripture, but then when you are given Scripture rather than dealing with it you pontificate on your doctrine. It's quite clear all you have is pretext built on modern assumptions.
Prove it. Quote Paul where he says that the converted chose to believe.

2 Thess 2:13
But we should always give thanks to God [[[Paul is not thanking THEM for their believing!]]] for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you [[[NOT THEY CHOSE GOD]]] from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
 
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
425
83
Prove it. Quote Paul where he says that the converted chose to believe.

2 Thess 2:13
But we should always give thanks to God [[[Paul is not thanking THEM for their believing!]]] for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you [[[NOT THEY CHOSE GOD]]] from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
Still with your pretexts. Do you simply not have a concept of context, or is your deception intentional?
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Still with your pretexts. Do you simply not have a concept of context, or is your deception intentional?
They have no concept of context .... and when they come against opposition they cannot refute they resort to deception.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,688
8,227
113
You've got this all backwards because you're begining with the pretext. All of the passages you mention are clearly denouncing the notion of Jewish identity as God's people due to heredity. The idea is not that God picks losers and winners, but that simply because the audience are children of Abraham does not make them children of God because children of God reckon to the teaching of the Father.
Yet for your doctrine you put the horse before the cart.
Absolute nonsense. The ONLY thing that matters is BELIEF IN JESUS, and consequently salvation....or damnation. THAT is what matters in John chapter 6 chapter 8 chapter 10 and every other chapter!

Jesus condemned Chorazin, Capernahum and Bethsaida. For what exactly? Esoteric notions of patrilineage? Or their UNBELIEF in the advent of their Messiah?

Matt 11:20-24
20Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: 21“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23And you, Capernaum,who[e] are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.”

Every one of the synoptic gospels has one central message: BELIEF IN JESUS! Every word every tangential statement every remark every confrontation every conflict is ultimately related to ONE SINGULAR THEME and COMMAND: BELIEVE IN JESUS as Lord Messiah and Savior.

Perhaps you have failed to comprehend or take notice of what evidently you believe to be a minor triviality?
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,688
8,227
113
Still with your pretexts. Do you simply not have a concept of context, or is your deception intentional?
Show me the scriptures wiseguy. Come on let's see them.
Get off your high horse hit the books and show me the scriptures!

If not then quit being a tragic pathetic whipping post and simply get out of the way.
 
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
425
83
Absolute nonsense. The ONLY thing that matters is BELIEF IN JESUS, and consequently salvation....or damnation. THAT is what matters in John chapter 6 chapter 8 chapter 10 and every other chapter!

Jesus condemned Chorazin, Capernahum and Bethsaida. For what exactly? Esoteric notions of patrilineage? Or their UNBELIEF in the advent of their Messiah?

Matt 11:20-24
20Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: 21“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23And you, Capernaum,who[e] are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.”

Every one of the synoptic gospels has one central message: BELIEF IN JESUS! Every word every tangential statement every remark every confrontation every conflict is ultimately related to ONE SINGULAR THEME and COMMAND: BELIEVE IN JESUS as Lord Messiah and Savior.

Perhaps you have failed to comprehend or take notice of what evidently you believe to be a minor triviality?
What does Matthew 11 have to do with John 6,8, and 10 other than the fact that they are both in the Bible? Do you really not understand the concept of context?
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,688
8,227
113
Still with your pretexts. Do you simply not have a concept of context, or is your deception intentional?
I see your bag of tricks is running empty. As are your scriptural responses.
 
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
425
83
Show me the scriptures wiseguy. Come on let's see them.
Get off your high horse hit the books and show me the scriptures!

If not then quit being a tragic pathetic whipping post and simply get out of the way.
Your pretext demonstrates you know there are Scripture, since you artificially limited it to Paul. So how about you stop the charade of pretending like you care about what the Bible says and admit you just don't want to give up the teachings of men.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,688
8,227
113
What does Matthew 11 have to do with John 6,8, and 10 other than the fact that they are both in the Bible? Do you really not understand the concept of context?
According to you they have absolutely nothing in common.

Let's ask the board.

Hello board. Does BOTH the book of John and the book of Matthew have as THE common, central and predominate theme the necessity to believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?

Let's take a vote! Thumbs up means yes thumbs down means no.
 
May 19, 2020
3,050
1,275
113
Show me the scriptures wiseguy. Come on let's see them.
Get off your high horse hit the books and show me the scriptures!

If not then quit being a tragic pathetic whipping post and simply get out of the way.


🤣🤣🤣
 
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
425
83
According to you they have absolutely nothing in common.

Let's ask the board.

Hello board. Does BOTH the book of John and the book of Matthew have as THE common, central and predominate theme the necessity to believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?

Let's take a vote! Thumbs up means yes thumbs down means no.
You don't forward the necessity to believe in Jesus, though. There is no such thing as belief in "unconditional election" just God's choice.

But your hostility and evasion of my question is a nice touch. I'm being serious when I ask if you don't understand what is meant by context in a narrative since you think a verse from another narrative somehow speaks to it. Do you really have trouble with what context means?
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,688
8,227
113
Your pretext demonstrates you know there are Scripture, since you artificially limited it to Paul. So how about you stop the charade of pretending like you care about what the Bible says and admit you just don't want to give up the teachings of men.
Men like Paul? Rots of Ruck happy landings.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,688
8,227
113
You don't forward the necessity to believe in Jesus, though. There is no such thing as belief in "unconditional election" just God's choice.

But your hostility and evasion of my question is a nice touch. I'm being serious when I ask if you don't understand what is meant by context in a narrative since you think a verse from another narrative somehow speaks to it. Do you really have trouble with what context means?
Your mindless bafflegab does nothing to support your's position with scripture that I have asked for for a dozen times.

Your shucking and jiving is becoming tiresome. Show us the scriptures that prove that men first choose God. You can look until your eyes bleed because they are not in there.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.