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TonyJay

Guest
#61
you said you wanted context.
me personally i think faith alone wont cut it without obeying the law.
I personally think that this is not supported by scripture.
There is nothing in James 2:14-25 that supports your position.
James is certainly not implying that works justify one before God.
That is not the thrust of his argument.
What he is affirming is that one's faith should be evidenced by appropriate deeds.
In other words those deeds are fruit or consequences of faith.
The same deeds in the absence of faith are worthless.

In addition, there is nothing in this passage that remotely links those deeds to observance of the Torah.
That is drawing a long bow indeed!

If I may be so bold may I suggest that you read Romans all the way through, chapter 1 to chapter 16.
Paul clearly articulates the role and purpose of the Law.
He also clearly states that one cannot be under the Law (Levitical law) and under grace simultaneously.
It really is one or the other!
One cannot be justified under grace yet also be relying on the observance of the Law.

If one wishes to be justified under the Law then that entails absolute and complete obedience to every article described in the Torah. No exceptions - ever.
A 21st century reinterpretation on what is required will not cut it.

Really, Jesus' whole purpose here on earth was to fulfil the requirements of the Law once and for all!
It is true that the Law has not "passed away" and one can still "take the challenge" of trying to justify oneself through the Law. Scripture, and Paul, in particular, emphasise the futility of attempting this.

If you go to the Gospels both Matthew and Mark record that at the moment of Jesus' death on the cross that the veil in the temple was torn in two. That "veil" was actually an exceptionally thick and heavy curtain and there was no coincidence to this occurrence.
The significance of the tearing of the veil cannot be underestimated.
Firstly, it signified that the path was open to God - no longer did any person need a priest to stand before God and represent them.
Secondly, it signifies the end of the Levitical system of sacrifice. the second is a logical consequence of the first.
Thirdly, it introduces a a new system whereby mankind, by accepting Christ as the all-sufficient sacrifice by grace through faith, are justified in the sight of God. The only works or deeds required for this have been accomplished by Jesus Christ - that is why it is an all-sufficient sacrifice. Do not try to add to it.

Works and deeds are absolutely important - just not for justification before God.
By accepting what Jesus Christ did on the cross we are also accepting the amazing (and incomprehensible) love that God has extended to us through Jesus Christ. Scripture teaches us that even the faith that we need to accept and start to understand this is a gift of God. In other words the whole transaction is by grace.
What is our response to this - to love God back!
Part of the expression of that love is to conduct ourselves as if we ambassadors for Jesus Christ (and we are!).
However, to equate that with observance to Levitical law would be a mistake. Our calling is far higher.

In summary - please read Romans, Paul does a very good job explaining this!

Tony Jay
 
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jaybird88

Guest
#62
I personally think that this is not supported by scripture.
There is nothing in James 2:14-25 that supports your position.
James is certainly not implying that works justify one before God. . . .
then what exactly is his message on deeds?
and what does James say on faith alone?


In summary - please read Romans, Paul does a very good job explaining this!

Tony Jay
i have and i think paul agrees with James. but so many want to twist pauls teachings into their own thing
 
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Trail-of-Truth

Guest
#63
Technically, Christianity didn't start until Christ died and established His church at Pentecost.
 
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TonyJay

Guest
#64
then what exactly is his message on deeds?
and what does James say on faith alone?
I thought I had already answered this: the relationship between works and faith goes like this - If one has faith then that faith should be evidenced by works. In other words the works are the result of faith. James is not suggesting that righteousness can be gained by works. In James 2:24 he is not saying that works can justify, the point that is being made is that faith should not be empty and without evidence.


i have and i think paul agrees with James. but so many want to twist pauls teachings into their own thing
I think you need to reread Roman's then because if you do cover it properly then it really should become evident to you that Paul is utterly rejecting the notion that Christians are under the Law.

Best wishes
 
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jaybird88

Guest
#65
I thought I had already answered this: the relationship between works and faith goes like this - If one has faith then that faith should be evidenced by works. In other words the works are the result of faith. James is not suggesting that righteousness can be gained by works. In James 2:24 he is not saying that works can justify, the point that is being made is that faith should not be empty and without evidence.



I think you need to reread Roman's then because if you do cover it properly then it really should become evident to you that Paul is utterly rejecting the notion that Christians are under the Law.

Best wishes
if telling yourself your not under the law makes you a better servant, then you should do it. you should remember that you are not everyone.

re reading something will not change the truth. does paul teach a different message than Jesus, if not then we should not turn away from the many teachings of Jesus that refer to the law. many of us want to obey those laws because thats what Jesus taught.
Jesus also warned those that lead people away from His teachings.