Christians Are Not Sinners

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PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,590
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#81
I’m a little confused by those talking about sinless perfectionism.

I don’t think that’s what the OP is talking about or espousing. It’s about identity.

Sinless perfectionists say they don’t sin. Usually by redefining what sin is, or changing God’s perfect standard.

I am vehemently against that. However here, I think the OP is saying although we still DO sin, and we should confess that sin, we are Children of God, in Christ, and that is our identity, not sinners.

I think this joyous news actually causes us to sin less!
 
Dec 21, 2020
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#82
I’m a little confused by those talking about sinless perfectionism.

I don’t think that’s what the OP is talking about or espousing. It’s about identity.

Sinless perfectionists say they don’t sin. Usually by redefining what sin is, or changing God’s perfect standard.

I am vehemently against that. However here, I think the OP is saying although we still DO sin, and we should confess that sin, we are Children of God, in Christ, and that is our identity, not sinners.

I think this joyous news actually causes us to sin less!
I agree that our identity is in Christ.
But I cannot agree with the OP's premise that "Christians are not sinners."
 
Jan 14, 2021
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#83
I agree that our identity is in Christ.
But I cannot agree with the OP's premise that "Christians are not sinners."
The "Christ" part of a Christian is not a sinner, but the carnal side is. We exist in duality. When someone is stating "Christians aren't sinners" I believe they mean this in reference to the part of them that is in Christ, not them as a whole.
 
Oct 20, 2022
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#84
Many on this forum practice discarding scriptures that they do not want to explain.
Please understand what they're referring to is in the article they skimmed. I am not that author. Therefore I did not state what they accuse. Just as an FYI
 
P

Polar

Guest
#85
In what way, shape or form could a reasonable person possibly interpret this thread to be about sinless perfection?

And if you or others do not see the thread as being about sinless perfectionism, then why bring it up?
 
P

Polar

Guest
#86
That’s exactly right, and your three posts itemizing some of the things God has done for us through Christ is great. We are washed in the blood of Christ.

We are sinners who are declared righteous through Christ.
We are saved sinners.
you can have it your way with your understanding

or

you can open your heart to the leading of the Spirit of God and allow some light into your belief we are still sinners

one of those scriptures says we are now RIGHTEOUS even if you do at times sin. there is no revolving door to Christianity

God sees the finished work of Christ when He looks at us. Do you not understand that absolutely no sin whatsoever can come before God? the term 'IN CHRIST' means our righteousness is ONLY in Christ and it is only that righteousness, the righteousness of Christ, that allows us to have the freedom to come before God.

The scripture references I posted are not just pretty verses. they are LIFE CHANGING if someone takes the time to look them up and study them and that is something no one is going to force you or anyone else to do



1Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Romans 5:1,2

jus·ti·fied
/ˈjəstəˌfīd/

Theology

Printing
adjective

  1. 1.
    having, done for, or marked by a good or legitimate reason.
    "the doctors were justified in treating her"

  2. 2.
    THEOLOGY
    declared or made righteous in the sight of God.



 
P

Polar

Guest
#87
I agree that our identity is in Christ.
But I cannot agree with the OP's premise that "Christians are not sinners."
then we cannot be righteous in Christ

you just do not see the conflict in what you say and what is in the Bible
 
P

Polar

Guest
#88
Please understand what they're referring to is in the article they skimmed. I am not that author. Therefore I did not state what they accuse. Just as an FYI
seems some folks also skim the Bible and have a faulty foundation :cautious:

this unwillingness for some (I am not singling anyone out here); in my general experience, I have seen that some refuse anything that contradicts what they have heard before or this assumption they already know all there is to know and also fear to just go a little further along in their Christianity, is wide spread

I thank God for a better understanding of our salvation and the fact we are accepted in His Son and don't have to hide....as if God does not know everything about us already

you know, I also think there is a sometimes more than a little bit of superstition in the mix. ie what will happen if I change how I 'do' things? what if I go to God right away and say 'I'm sorry for failing again' instead of kicking it around in our heads for a couple of days? and thinking about the failures we are and how could God love us?

And there is also pride at times. too proud to believe or think we have not, after all, arrived at some special place where we can look down at others

this is a never ending cycle and the devil is the accuser. God is NOT accusing us

what is the sin that leads to death? isn't it the rejection of God's grace through His Son?

it isn't about how we feel. accept what the Bible tells us and learn to live free of guilt and understand that we will never be perfect here but we do have continued forgiveness through the shed blood of Christ. that has nothing whatsoever to do with thinking we are sinless or perfect.

ONLY Jesus never sinned which is why He was able to take our place and God accepted His sacrifice. And no we probably cannot understand all of it until we see Him face to face.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#89
seems some folks also skim the Bible and have a faulty foundation :cautious:

this unwillingness for some (I am not singling anyone out here); in my general experience, I have seen that some refuse anything that contradicts what they have heard before or this assumption they already know all there is to know and also fear to just go a little further along in their Christianity, is wide spread

I thank God for a better understanding of our salvation and the fact we are accepted in His Son and don't have to hide....as if God does not know everything about us already

you know, I also think there is a sometimes more than a little bit of superstition in the mix. ie what will happen if I change how I 'do' things? what if I go to God right away and say 'I'm sorry for failing again' instead of kicking it around in our heads for a couple of days? and thinking about the failures we are and how could God love us?

And there is also pride at times. too proud to believe or think we have not, after all, arrived at some special place where we can look down at others

this is a never ending cycle and the devil is the accuser. God is NOT accusing us

what is the sin that leads to death? isn't it the rejection of God's grace through His Son?

it isn't about how we feel. accept what the Bible tells us and learn to live free of guilt and understand that we will never be perfect here but we do have continued forgiveness through the shed blood of Christ. that has nothing whatsoever to do with thinking we are sinless or perfect.

ONLY Jesus never sinned which is why He was able to take our place and God accepted His sacrifice. And no we probably cannot understand all of it until we see Him face to face.
Religion tends to trap people in a prison of thought and it gets more difficult to escape the older someone gets. Most are probably guilty of this to some degree, but it’s definitely more pronounced in others.

Just remember God is not confined to a box like we often are.

This may be a bit of a shocker, but many Christians don’t actually follow the Bible. They may follow bits and pieces, but they’ll openly reject other parts. This isn’t supposed to be normal, but I’ve witnessed it enough to know it’s true.
 
Dec 21, 2020
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#90
you can have it your way with your understanding

or

you can open your heart to the leading of the Spirit of God and allow some light into your belief we are still sinners
We are still sinners. If we weren't, we would no longer sin.

one of those scriptures says we are now RIGHTEOUS even if you do at times sin.
We are declared righteous.

there is no revolving door to Christianity
Agreed. Salvation for Christians is permanent.

God sees the finished work of Christ when He looks at us. Do you not understand that absolutely no sin whatsoever can come before God?
Yes. So what do you do about the sins you still commit?

the term 'IN CHRIST' means our righteousness is ONLY in Christ and it is only that righteousness, the righteousness of Christ, that allows us to have the freedom to come before God.
Agreed.

The scripture references I posted are not just pretty verses. they are LIFE CHANGING if someone takes the time to look them up and study them and that is something no one is going to force you or anyone else to do
Yes, those verses are wonderful truths.

1Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Romans 5:1,2

jus·ti·fied
/ˈjəstəˌfīd/

Theology

Printing
adjective

  1. 1.
    having, done for, or marked by a good or legitimate reason.
    "the doctors were justified in treating her"

  2. 2.
    THEOLOGY
    declared or made righteous in the sight of God.


Amen!

But there is a difference between "declared" and "made." If we were made righteous, we would no longer sin. Anyone honest with themselves knows they still sin. We are declared righteous.
 
Dec 21, 2020
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#91
then we cannot be righteous in Christ
The Bible says we are declared righteous in Christ.

you just do not see the conflict in what you say and what is in the Bible
You don't see the conflict in what you are saying. You say "Christians are not sinners," but you acknowledge that we still sin. That's a contradiction.
 
Oct 20, 2022
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#92
seems some folks also skim the Bible and have a faulty foundation :cautious:

this unwillingness for some (I am not singling anyone out here); in my general experience, I have seen that some refuse anything that contradicts what they have heard before or this assumption they already know all there is to know and also fear to just go a little further along in their Christianity, is wide spread

I thank God for a better understanding of our salvation and the fact we are accepted in His Son and don't have to hide....as if God does not know everything about us already

you know, I also think there is a sometimes more than a little bit of superstition in the mix. ie what will happen if I change how I 'do' things? what if I go to God right away and say 'I'm sorry for failing again' instead of kicking it around in our heads for a couple of days? and thinking about the failures we are and how could God love us?

And there is also pride at times. too proud to believe or think we have not, after all, arrived at some special place where we can look down at others

this is a never ending cycle and the devil is the accuser. God is NOT accusing us

what is the sin that leads to death? isn't it the rejection of God's grace through His Son?

it isn't about how we feel. accept what the Bible tells us and learn to live free of guilt and understand that we will never be perfect here but we do have continued forgiveness through the shed blood of Christ. that has nothing whatsoever to do with thinking we are sinless or perfect.

ONLY Jesus never sinned which is why He was able to take our place and God accepted His sacrifice. And no we probably cannot understand all of it until we see Him face to face.
Agreed.

I've known people who seem to feel more at peace feeling enslaved to the fear of slipping up.

They're not strong in Christ. They're afraid and rather enjoy to see the self as a slave to sin.

For some fear is everything. If they alter their errant understanding of the Bible they'll go to Hell.

One such person always closed every communication,letter,cards, with, Please Forgive Me.

For as long as he lived he never changed that. Not even when a few of us would call after receiving such a correspondence and ask, forgive you for what? What did you do?😆

Sometimes I think people envision God as their own worst fear.

I couldn't live afraid of God.
For me that would stop me living the peace I find in Christ.
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
#93
In what way, shape or form could a reasonable person possibly interpret this thread to be about sinless perfection?

And if you or others do not see the thread as being about sinless perfectionism, then why bring it up?
I read the article and some of the comments after the article and other articles on the source website.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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#95
Shared with permission. And Fair Use. 😊


I love this article because it uses scripture to make a long overdue point.
Rejoice! We are indeed free in Christ.😊🕊️

[Article]
There are far too many differences between sinners and children of God for them to be one and the same.
Of course there are differences between the saved and the unsaved. Goes without saying.

However, the greatest apostle and evangelist of all time spoke in the present tense about his own sin nature, and being the worst sinner.

1 Tim 1:15 - Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

And Romans 7 details his struggle.

And he wrote this:

Gal 5-
15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

If you are a born-again child of God, you are not a sinner.
The Bible refutes this fantasy.

You will slip, make mistakes, fall short and sin.
Well, there it is. Yes, Christians ARE sinners. Even the article admits it.

[QUOET]But that is neither your identity nor your nature. [/QUOTE]
Believers WILL SIN as long as they are in their earthly bodies.
 
Oct 20, 2022
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#96
I see the additional blessing of finding and sharing that article as one that provides a teaching moment for personal revelation and introspection.
 
Dec 21, 2020
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#97
Agreed.

I've known people who seem to feel more at peace feeling enslaved to the fear of slipping up.

They're not strong in Christ. They're afraid and rather enjoy to see the self as a slave to sin.

For some fear is everything. If they alter their errant understanding of the Bible they'll go to Hell.

One such person always closed every communication,letter,cards, with, Please Forgive Me.

For as long as he lived he never changed that. Not even when a few of us would call after receiving such a correspondence and ask, forgive you for what? What did you do?😆

Sometimes I think people envision God as their own worst fear.

I couldn't live afraid of God.
For me that would stop me living the peace I find in Christ.
I hope you aren't insinuating that Christians who understand they are sinners are "enslaved to the fear of slipping up." Or that they're "not strong in Christ." Or that "fear is everything." Or that "God is their own worst fear." Or that they are "afraid of God." Or that they don't have peace in Christ.

None of those things are true.
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
#98
So glad to hear you did read it.

😊What did you think?
I think.... About the article....i dont believe you really want to know....

However what I think about sin in the life of a christian is that, Jesus gave us a model of prayer and included in that prayer

"And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."

Therefore i agree with what Martin Luther wrote on the subject, which is as follows.

This relates to us in our life, which, although we have and believe the Word of God, and do and submit to His will, and are supported by His gifts and blessings is nevertheless not without sin. For we still stumble daily and transgress because we live in the world among men who do us much harm and give us cause for impatience, anger, revenge, etc. Besides, we have Satan at our back, who sets upon us on every side, and fights (as we have heard) against all the foregoing petitions, so that it is not possible always to stand firm in such a persistent conflict.
Therefore there is here again great need to call upon God and to pray: Dear Father, forgive us our trespasses. Not as though He did not forgive sin without and even before our prayer (for He has given us the Gospel, in which is pure forgiveness before we prayed or ever thought about it). But this is to the intent that we may recognize and accept such forgiveness. For since the flesh in which we daily live is of such a nature that it neither trusts nor believes God, and is ever active in evil lusts and devices, so that we sin daily in word and deed, by commission and omission by which the conscience is thrown into unrest, so that it is afraid of the wrath and displeasure of God, and thus loses the comfort and confidence derived from the Gospel; therefore it is ceaselessly necessary that we run hither and obtain consolation to comfort the conscience again.
But this should serve God's purpose of breaking our pride and keeping us humble. For in case any one should boast of his godliness and despise others, God has reserved this prerogative to Himself, that the person is to consider himself and place this prayer before his eyes, and he will find that he is no better than others, and that in the presence of God all must lower their plumes, and be glad that they can attain forgiveness. And let no one think that as long as we live here he can reach such a position that he will not need such forgiveness. In short, if God does not forgive without ceasing, we are lost.
It is therefore the intent of this petition that God would not regard our sins and hold up to us what we daily deserve, but would deal graciously with us, and forgive, as He has promised, and thus grant us a joyful and confident conscience to stand before Him in prayer. For where the heart is not in right relation towards God, nor can take such confidence, it will nevermore venture to pray. But such a confident and joyful heart can spring from nothing else than the [certain] knowledge of the forgiveness of sin.
 
Oct 20, 2022
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#99
I hope you aren't insinuating that Christians who understand they are sinners are "enslaved to the fear of slipping up." Or that they're "not strong in Christ." Or that "fear is everything." Or that "God is their own worst fear." Or that they are "afraid of God." Or that they don't have peace in Christ.

None of those things are true.
I agree. None of those thing you believe are true.

Because I was referring to people I know personally. As I stated from the start.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
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We are still sinners. If we weren't, we would no longer sin.
Your definition of sinner differs from the Biblical definition of sinner. If you insist upon creating you own dictionary, then it will be a challenge to continue communicating with you.

A sinner is one who lives in a state of rebellion against the lordship of Christ. A sinner is one who refuses to repent and admit he is wrong.