Christians vs Jews?

kaylagrl · Jul 2, 2015

What people dont understand is the history between the Christians and the Jews and where the suppression/replacement theology came from. Both Protestants and Catholics are guilty of the antisemitism that led right to the doors of the Holocaust.Did you know...

Pope Paul IV issued “Cum nimis absurbum” – meaning literally, “Because it is completely senseless …” After those opening words, the proclamation continues: “…and inappropriate to be in a situation where Christian piety allows the Jews (whose guilt -- all of their own doing -- has condemned them to eternal slavery) access to our society and even to live among us…” before laying a long and detailed list of restrictions on Jewish life.

The first in the list of rules was one requiring all Jews in any given town to live in a single district, which was to be enclosed with a wall, and locked at night. The Jews were not allowed to own any property in the ghetto, and were permitted to have but a single synagogue for prayer. Any others that existed at the time of the promulgation of the bull were to be destroyed.
Jews were obligated to identify themselves with a yellow head-covering. Professionally, they were limited to the rag trade, unless they were trained physicians, in which case they were forbidden from tending to Christians. Excerpt from Haaretz

While Napoleon allowed the Jews freedoms and to leave the ghettos when the Catholic church came to power again they reinstated the restrictions on the Jews. The Nazis were not the first to establish ghettos and force Jews to wear yellow.It was the church.Many early church fathers were antisemitic...

John Chrysostom---The synagogue is worse than a brothel…it is the den of scoundrels and the repair of wild beasts…the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults…the refuge of brigands and dabauchees, and the cavern of devils. It is a criminal assembly of Jews…a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ… a house worse than a drinking shop…a den of thieves, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, the refuge of devils, a gulf and a abyss of perdition."…"I would say the same things about their souls… As for me, I hate the synagogue…I hate the Jews for the same reason.

St. Augustine---How hateful to me are the enemies of your Scripture! How I wish that you would slay them (the Jews) with your two-edged sword, so that there should be none to oppose your word!

Peter the Venerable---Yes, you Jews. I say, do I address you; you, who till this very day, deny the Son of God. How long, poor wretches, will ye not believe the truth? Truly I doubt whether a Jew can be really human… I lead out from its den a monstrous animal, and show it as a laughing stock in the amphitheater of the world, in the sight of all the people. I bring thee forward, thou Jew, thou brute beast, in the sight of all men.

Martin Luther-- {On how to deal with the Jews}First, their synagogues should be set on fire, and whatever does not burn up should be covered or spread over with dirt so that no one may ever be able to see a cinder or stone of it. And this ought to be done for the honor of God and of Christianity in order that God may see that we are Christians...

Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed. For they perpetrate the same things there that they do in their synagogues. For this reason they ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like gypsies, in order that they may realize that they are not masters in our land, as they boast, but miserable captives, as they complain of incessantly before God with bitter wailing... their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more.

Passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to the Jews. For they have no business in the rural districts since they are not nobles, nor officials, nor merchants, nor the like. Let them stay at home...If you princes and nobles do not close the road legally to such exploiters, then some troop ought to ride against them, for they will learn from this pamphlet what the Jews are and how to handle them and that they ought not to be protected. You ought not, you cannot protect them, unless in the eyes of God you want to share all their abomination...

To sum up, dear princes and nobles who have Jews in your domains, if this advice of mine does not suit you, then find a better one so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish burden - the Jews...Such a desperate, thoroughly evil, poisonous, and devilish lot are these Jews, who for these fourteen hundred years have been and still are our plague, our pestilence, and our misfortune.

John Calvin---Their [the Jews] rotten and unbending stiffneckedness deserves that they be oppressed unendingly and without measure or end and that they die in their misery without the pity of anyone.

This is the church speaking!! Out of this grew the replacement theory,that the church has taken the place and blessings of the Jews and left the Jews curses.It is a dangerous doctrine that led to the murder of 6 million innocent Jews. The Jews never stopped being Gods chosen, even though the church taught an evil doctrine. Both Catholic and Protestant churches have repented of this doctrine in view of the Holocaust.The Jews were falsely accused of blood libels and all manner of things by the church.Then we wonder why the Jews have not come to Christ?! They have been expelled from Christian countries,put into ghettos,forbidden freedoms and rights,all they have owned stolen from them and murdered all in the name of Jesus. I cannot abide the suppression teaching,it is evil and straight from hell. And I dont throw around that phrase lightly.Sorry for the long post but I feel this is very important for people to understand.

valiant · Jul 2, 2015

I didn't realise that Paul had read Augustine, Martin Luther, and other before writing Romans 9-11, Ephesians 2 and other Scriptures.

The New Testament clearly teaches that the true church is the true Israel, and the inheritor of the promises made to Israel. It was not the Apostolic church which cursed the Jewish for its unbelief. It was God Himself. It was He Who pronounced curses on unbelieving Israel (Deut 28). And they incorporated them in their own Scriptures. It was He Who prophesied that the large part of them would be judged fo their unbelief. And it was He Who arranged for the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple and the widespread dispersion of the Jews.

That does not of course give US the right to ill treat Jews, and the behaviour of the church has been abominable in this regard. But Jesus Himself made clear that disaster would fall on them unless they returned to the Messiah.

Jesus made clear that the new Israel, 'the congregation', would be built on the statement concerning His Messiahship (Matt 16.18). And He depicted Himself as embodying Israel when He called Himself the True Vine in contrast with the false vine of unbelieving Israel (John 15.1-6).

But the idea that the church has somehow 'replaced Israel' is nonsense. The church IS Israel. It was founded on the Jewish Apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ being its chief cornerstone. In its first years it was made up almost solely of Jews. They were the Jewish remnant whom God had promised would arise.

But as Israel had ALWAYS done (Ex 12.48) it opened its heart to Gentiles who believed in the Messiah, who were incorporated into Israel, and became one with the true Israel. This was the olive tree (Jer 11.16) of believing Israel (Rom 11.12-24), made up of the election of grace and the fullness of the Gentiles.

Unbelieving Jews were cut off from Israel. They were no longer Israel. The true God-recognised as Israel His faithful growing remnant, which were expanded by believing Gentiles. All unbelieving Jews and unbelieving Gentiles are rejected from it.

Unbelieving, rejected Israel which is now in Palestine is not Israel in God's eyes, and can never become so unless they repent, seek Jesus as their Messiah, and become members of His true church.

This teaching that the church is the continuation of the true remnant of Israel is founded in the New Testament. It has nothing to do with later aberrations. See Rom 2.27-29; 9-11, especially 11.12-24; Eph 2.12-22; 1 Peter 2.9 etc etc It was the reason behind Paul's writing of Rom 9-11.

kaylagrl · Jul 2, 2015

valiant said:

I didn't realise that Paul had read Augustine, Martin Luther, and other before writing Romans 9-11, Ephesians 2 and other Scriptures.

The New Testament clearly teaches that the true church is the true Israel, and the inheritor of the promises made to Israel. It was not the Apostolic church which cursed the Jewish for its unbelief. It was God Himself. It was He Who pronounced curses on unbelieving Israel (Deut 28). And they incorporated them in their own Scriptures. It was He Who prophesied that the large part of them would be judged fo their unbelief. And it was He Who arranged for the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple and the widespread dispersion of the Jews.

That does not of course give US the right to ill treat Jews, and the behaviour of the church has been abominable in this regard. But Jesus Himself made clear that disaster would fall on them unless they returned to the Messiah.

Jesus made clear that the new Israel, 'the congregation', would be built on the statement concerning His Messiahship (Matt 16.18). And He depicted Himself as embodying Israel when He called Himself the True Vine in contrast with the false vine of unbelieving Israel (John 15.1-6).

But the idea that the church has somehow 'replaced Israel' is nonsense. The church IS Israel. It was founded on the Jewish Apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ being its chief cornerstone. In its first years it was made up almost solely of Jews. They were the Jewish remnant whom God had promised would arise.

But as Israel had ALWAYS done (Ex 12.48) it opened its heart to Gentiles who believed in the Messiah, who were incorporated into Israel, and became one with the true Israel. This was the olive tree (Jer 11.16) of believing Israel (Rom 11.12-24), made up of the election of grace and the fullness of the Gentiles.

Unbelieving Jews were cut off from Israel. They were no longer Israel. The true God-recognised as Israel His faithful growing remnant, which were expanded by believing Gentiles. All unbelieving Jews and unbelieving Gentiles are rejected from it.

Unbelieving, rejected Israel which is now in Palestine is not Israel in God's eyes, and can never become so unless they repent, seek Jesus as their Messiah, and become members of His true church.

This teaching that the church is the continuation of the true remnant of Israel is founded in the New Testament. It has nothing to do with later aberrations. See Rom 2.27-29; 9-11, especially 11.12-24; Eph 2.12-22; 1 Peter 2.9 etc etc It was the reason behind Paul's writing of Rom 9-11.

Sorry but you are wrong.You are twisting Scriptures.Catholics,Protestants,Lutherans all have denounced the replacement theology.I dont know what church you are attending that is still teaching this error but it is wrong and it is antisemitic. Im not going to change your mind but I hope God will.

bondservant · Jul 2, 2015

Thank you kalagirl for bringing that to the post. When I first posted my first thread on cc I said that christians were guilty of this, it was not received well.

SolidGround · Jul 2, 2015

Replacement theology is the only thing that can possibly reconcile my Faith with my upbringing.
If the Church is not the true Israel, then who am I?
Did I forget Jerusalem by following Christ?
No!
I found Jerusalem, long forgotten by my ancestors.
The Mountain of Zion is not on a hill in the Levant. It is the Mountain of the Word of God.
That is my home. And I am running towards Zion.

Replacement Theology is a horrible term for what actually occured. But if the term is the only term that it's opponents will accept, then I will accept it also.
You see, very few actually believe that the Church has "replaced" Israel. They believe that the Church is the continuation of True Israel, which is the Faith of Abraham, opposed to the rebellion of those who longed for Egypt.

Modern "Judaism" is merely a sect of Babylonian religion. It has no right to the name it takes.
I have no right to be called a Jew, even though my parents claimed such... except in Christ, I am made a true Jew.

I ha e kept out of these conversations because so few understand what it means to be a Jew, and think it a physical thing, and make doctrines and theologies out of this physical understanding.
But it is foolishness, and must be rebuked.
The ones you call "Jews" are as much Israel as the children of Hagar. They are both daughters of the Harlot, and both daughters of Babylon. There is no spiritual difference between the "Jews" and the Arabs. They are both equal in their false claim of birthright, and equal in claim of blessing.

If blessing the "Jews" grants a blessing, then blessing the Arabs grants a blessing. They have the same mother, and the same bloodline. Both are mixed blood, and fallen from the Faith by their rejection of the Father: by rejecting the Son.

Speaking to self: Dust off your sandals, and leave this town.

Elysian · Jul 3, 2015

pwrnJC said:

Oh, you have some sort of inside scoop that GOD killed JESUS? Wow..the neat thing about what you just said is that one day you will have the privilege of facing JESUS, Himself, along with everyone else who's knees are bowed and tongues confessing that HE is LORD. At that time, you can boldly proclaim to JESUS CHRIST that HIs Father killed Him, just like you do here on earth. At the end of the day, the entire universe will know His response to you.... "Depart from ME, for I never knew you!"

Did God not sacrifice his only begotten son?

Elysian · Jul 3, 2015

SolidGround said:

Replacement theology is the only thing that can possibly reconcile my Faith with my upbringing.
If the Church is not the true Israel, then who am I?
Did I forget Jerusalem by following Christ?
No!
I found Jerusalem, long forgotten by my ancestors.
The Mountain of Zion is not on a hill in the Levant. It is the Mountain of the Word of God.
That is my home. And I am running towards Zion.

Replacement Theology is a horrible term for what actually occured. But if the term is the only term that it's opponents will accept, then I will accept it also.
You see, very few actually believe that the Church has "replaced" Israel. They believe that the Church is the continuation of True Israel, which is the Faith of Abraham, opposed to the rebellion of those who longed for Egypt.

Modern "Judaism" is merely a sect of Babylonian religion. It has no right to the name it takes.
I have no right to be called a Jew, even though my parents claimed such... except in Christ, I am made a true Jew.

I ha e kept out of these conversations because so few understand what it means to be a Jew, and think it a physical thing, and make doctrines and theologies out of this physical understanding.
But it is foolishness, and must be rebuked.
The ones you call "Jews" are as much Israel as the children of Hagar. They are both daughters of the Harlot, and both daughters of Babylon. There is no spiritual difference between the "Jews" and the Arabs. They are both equal in their false claim of birthright, and equal in claim of blessing.

If blessing the "Jews" grants a blessing, then blessing the Arabs grants a blessing. They have the same mother, and the same bloodline. Both are mixed blood, and fallen from the Faith by their rejection of the Father: by rejecting the Son.

Speaking to self: Dust off your sandals, and leave this town.

Good post Sir, I have been trying to explain similar.

valiant · Jul 3, 2015

kaylagrl said:

Well as God has shown me it quite clearly I don't think He will

I don't believe in replacement theology. You have clearly not followed my argument.

God's purpose from the beginning was to raise up a people within a people through whom He would make a people for Himself. That He has accomplished in the church WHO ARE ISRAEL, and the continuation of Israel as it has been established from the beginning..

Israel was NEVER made up merely of direct descendants of Jacob. That is a myth. It was always a cosmopolitan people, and it always welcomed into its number those who sought to worship YHWH (Ex 12.48). When Jesus Christ came into the world the election of Israel believed on Him and followed Him. The unbelievers were cut off from Israel. That is clearly stated (Rom 11.12-24). So Israel continued in the elect, in believing Israel. And that Israel grew and expanded by conversions among both Jews and Gentiles who also then formed a part of Israel. Thus God's elect (the true church) ARE ISRAEL. God knows of no other Israel.

LOL tell me how claiming to be an Israelite can be anti-Semitic? That's good one. Or don't you think God cast of unbelieving Israel for crucifying His Son? Why then 70 AD?

kaylagrl · Jul 3, 2015

bondservant said:

I know,I got attacked by someone no longer here,they were very angry with me. Sometimes the church wants to bury their sins in the past.But as I said,all major churches,and also evangelical churches have denounced this doctrine in view of the Holocaust.You are totally correct.It is such a sin that Christians have had so much of a part in persecuting the Jews. Jesus,was a Jew,the Holy family,were Jews,the first Christians,were Jews,the Bible was written by Jews.We owe much to Gods chosen people. He still has his hand on Israel.

kaylagrl · Jul 3, 2015

SolidGround said:

Supersessionism is the belief that the Christian Church has replaced the Israelites as God's[SUP][2][/SUP] chosen people[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][3][/SUP] and that theMosaic covenant has been replaced or superseded by the New Covenant.[SUP][4][/SUP] From a supersessionist's "point of view, just by continuing to exist, the Jews dissent."[SUP][5][/SUP] This view directly contrasts with dual-covenant theology which holds the Mosaic Covenant as still valid for Jews. While supersessionism was a core tenet of the Church for the majority of its existence, and remains a common assumption among Christians, since the Holocaust it has been rejected by some mainstream Christian theologians and denominations.[SUP][6][/SUP][SUP]:1–5

I am sorry you see it the way you do.But the Bible says the Jews will come to Christ before all is said and done.We cannot
say who God will save.It amazes me that some can preach once saved always saved but cant believe God can have mercy
on the Jews.He has mercy on who he wills.I will always stand with Gods chosen,I will not accept false doctrine.The church
has not replaced the Jews.I hope one day you're eyes will be opened to the truth.

[/SUP]

kaylagrl · Jul 3, 2015

valiant said:

Dont have time to answer,on my way out the door.The OT clearly speaks of the creation of Israel as a nation again.God will use the Jews again.They have been blinded for a time but God is not done with them.This replacement theology was made popular first by the Catholic church.None of the first Christians believed this way.God did not show you this doctrine,it is false and you need to prayerfully consider it again.Please read my post on church fathers.Do you agree with them? If not,why not? Appreciate if you could answer that question. Got to run...

KennethC · Jul 3, 2015

kaylagrl said:

This is because false doctrines that run rapid now days blind people to the truth...

For example you could tell them the pen is blue and they will say its green, then you can go and actually show them the blue pen, and they will still argue and say it is green. There is a lot of holes in how the teachings of the eternal security and osas doctrines have that others refuse to look at.

For instance eternal security was started by Augustine in the 4th century, and the doctrine taught that falling away is completely impossible. But you have Matthew 24:10, 1 Timothy 4:1, and James 5:19-20 that completely refutes that...

valiant · Jul 3, 2015

KennethC said:

I must assume that you read the New Testament with blinkers on (as indeed most people do). Eternal security was plainly taught both by Jesus and Paul. Did they get it from Augustine?

But we teach it without insulting the other side. We are willing to let Scripture speak for us.

As Jesus said, 'This is the Father's will Who sent Me, that of ALL whom He has given me I should lose NOTHING, but should raise them up at the Last Day (John 6.39)..

The promise is clear and total. So now get your pencil out and start twisting it around.

My sheep -will never perish and none shall pluck them from My hand.' (John 10.27-28). He even backed it up by adding, 'My Father Who gave them to Me is greater than all, and none is able to pluck them from His hand.'

Now start telling me that Jesus is incapable of fulfilling His promise. I have no doubt you will come up with some silly explanation like 'O but they can wriggle free' as though Jesus and His Father were incompetent. If my son couldn't wriggle free from me when I wanted him to do my will, I am sure certain that no one can wriggle free from HIS hand.

Paul also says, 'Who will confirm us to the end that we might be guiltless in the Day of our LORD Jesus Christ.' Then he adds GOD IS FAITHFUL (1 Cor 1.8-9). - Note that there are NO 'mights, or but or ifs.' Absolute certainty. Now get to work turning the blue pencil orange LOL

Again Paul says, 'I am confident that He Who has begun a good work in you will confirm it until the Day of Jesus Christ' (Phil 1.6).

You see that's God's side which will never fail. THAT is WHY men will 'endure unto the end' (Matt 24.10).

Some of those who are nominal and have never truly been saved, and are NOT safe in His hands, will indeed depart from 'the faith' (the teaching of the Apostles). Just as some departed in the days of Jesus. But they were NOT OF HIS SHEEP.

James 5.19-20 merely point out that those who go astray WILL be brought back. For the brethren will be acting on behalf of the Good Shepherd Who 'seeks UNTIL He finds' (Luke 15.4).

I am so sorry that you lack such confidence in Jesus Christ your LORD that you cannot believe that He will do what He said.

valiant · Jul 3, 2015

kaylagrl said:

Yes and He did it first in the restoration after the Exile, and then finally through Jesus CHRIST. The formation of the church WAS the restoration of Israel as God's holy nation (1 Peter 2.9)..

Not the unbelieving Jews. That is contrary to Scripture.

Well God is certainly bringing SOME back to Himself and they are becoming members of the true Israel, the church of God.

Well Paul thought of it first (Romans 11.12-24; Eph 2.12-22). And Jesus also taught it (Matt 21.43; John 15.1-6). So maybe they had a point? But it is not replacement theology it is CONTINUATION theology. The true Israel continued. It was unbelieving Israel who were cut off.

I have just shown you that they did, INCLUDING JESUS.

Yes He did . I used to believe your errors. But God showed me otherwise.

I continually prayerfully consider what I believe as I study the Scriptures. But I know that in this matter God has made the truth clear to me

I always read posts and make sure I understand them before replying to them (unlike many on this site). But your post produced no Scripture. The LATER church fathers behaved disgracefully. The Roman Catholic church were murderers of everyone who disagreed with them, not just Jews. And so on. But that has nothing to do with Biblical teaching which is crystal clear on the matter..

If not,why not? Appreciate if you could answer that question. Got to run...[/QUOTE]

But I DID lol. They were totally wrong in their behaviour to the unbelieving Jews. They should have left it to God to bring His curses on them (Deut 28). Nevertheless the Jews have been going through great tribulation since 70 AD precisely BECAUSE God had rejected them.

Have a good day

Is · Jul 3, 2015

Blain said:

Jesus said no man could take his life, that he was the one that had the power to give it and take it up again. I think this is clear proof of his deity.

Pumicestone · Jul 3, 2015

Elysian said:

Nah ... it was just a helluva way to spend Easter.

KennethC · Jul 3, 2015

valiant said:

Those are good scriptures that I do not deny, but once again you ignore the fact that it is a process that has to continue by one keeping their faith in Christ.

Once again I do use scripture and in order for eternal security or osas to work that standard has to apply to all believers, but the bible clearly says more than once many will fall away from the faith;

1 Peter 1:9

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

James 1:12

Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

Matthew 24:10-13

And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 10:22

And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

2 Peter 2:20-22

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

Hebrews 12:1-3

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.

Hebrews 10:36

For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.

Hebrews 6:4-6

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Hebrews 3:12-14

Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

2 Timothy 4:2-8

Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.

1 Timothy 4:16

Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

1 Corinthians 9:24-25

Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.

Romans 11:19-22

Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Mark 13:9-13

“But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them. And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death. And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Colossians 1:22-23

In the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Sorry for the big words everybody but I felt by the Holy Spirit I had to put emphasis on those scriptures and the words in them, because eternal security and osas can only work if it applies to all believers. These scriptures of just a few show that it is not the case, plus Jesus Himself said not everybody who calls Him Lord will inherit the kingdom of heaven !!!

Pumicestone · Jul 3, 2015

If you fill a whole page, does that make the message more vital ?

valiant · Jul 3, 2015

Pumicestone said:

no it is the sign of someone with a weak argument.

valiant · Jul 3, 2015

KennethC said:

No I ignore nothing. The Scriptures cited are God's promise of what HE WILL DO. And they indicate quite clearly that it will be right to the end. The process is HIS and the certainty of it, and its completion, is not dependent on man's response. Either they are true or they are lies. His promise is that HE will maintain our faith.

Nowhere does it say that a true believer will finally fall from the faith. We have to distinguish the real thing from the professor, who believes for a while and then withers.

yes having believed, and having been saved by committing our salvation to Jesus, we look forward to our final salvation which will be the consequence of our faith.

And that is the test of the true believer. By his fruits he will be known.

Yes persecution separates the genuine from the fake. The fake will fall away because they are NOT kept by the Savior. The genuine will persevere because Christ is upholding them.

Yes the ones who have been saved once for all by Christ (Titus 3.5; Eph 2.8-9), and are being saved by Him (1 Cor 1.18), will endure to the end receiving their final salvation. Salvation is HIS work from start to finish.

So true. They had the knowledge but not the true faith. They had never truly believed. Their introduction into Christian circles had delivered them from the world and its defilements. But their natures had not changed. They were still dogs and sows. Thus when the trials came they failed to go on because Christ was not keeping them.

Very true, By considering Him Who is keeping them, the author of their eternal salvation, they will not grow weary or fainthearted. Hallelujah.

But it is Christ Who enables us to endure. Salvation RESULTS in endurance.

Yes they have been enlightened by the Scriptures, spoken to and convicted by the Spirit, and have seen wonders done among them, but because of trial they fall away from what they have heard. Why? Because they have not been saved. They have no Savior to keep them. They have turned Him down.

It is never true of a backslidden Christian that there is no way back. Indeed Jesus promised the opposite. So this cannot apply to backslidden Christians.

But as it says they fell away BECAUSE THEY HAD NOT COME TO SHARE CHRIST. For those who had would hold their confidence firm to the end

And rhe same principle apply to the rest of you quotes. I will not weary the reader with them

.

You have to use big words because your argument is weak. I understand that. But I don't think that it was the Holy Spirit who was guiding you

He would honour Christ the Savior. It DOES apply to all if they are truly in the arms of the Savior

No they don't. They just show that if we do not truly know Christ as Savior we will be unable to persevere. Head knowledge is not enough.

well of course. But note in context that He will say to them, I NEVER know you. YOU WERE NRVER MINE. That is my whole point

Eternally secure in Him. Valiant.

Christians vs Jews?

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