Christmas tree -- vestige from Babylonian worship

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ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
30,634
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#81
dont know where you got that story from.
I got it from two different preachers as well as another less helpful link that said the practice dates back to ancient Babylon.

I think it is easy enough for anyone to find that this is a pagan practice that goes back to Babylon, which is essentially all I care about.

My interest is the full celebration of Christmas, both the worship in the church and the pagan practices of the world at the present time.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#82
But in spite of its pagan origins, Christmas became a Christian festival and has been so for about 1600 years. So we should look at the positive aspects of Christmas as Christians (not as the world celebrates it and people get drunk):
For lots of people Christmas is a Christian festival, but not for all people. For some it is in the decorations, the supply of things to satisfy their loved ones lusts, and a chance to get together with family. The only thing Christian for them is the giving of love that is from Christ, and even that is often not giving love but a chance to say they like one person better than another.

I think people whose life belongs to the Lord can do much better by learning what scripture says about their holidays and keeping to that. If they learn what is of the occult and what is of God and keep to God's ways and avoid the occult they grow in Christian maturity.

For almost 4,000 years people sacrificed animal blood simply because God said to do that so they did on faith without a full understanding that the true blood was the blood of Christ that was to come. We decorate trees, follow occult ways without understanding it is of the occult. I pray and hope God sees our hearts, in our hearts we are not following the occult, but we are following the ways of the world. God says to follow His ways, not the ways of the world.
 
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kaylagrl

Guest
#83

This was Post #1 of her thread on Christmas tree burning. "P.S. If you don't celebrate Christs birth please move on, this is not a discussion on that subject. This is news story about a Christmas tree."

If you have something to say to me,say it to me or keep my name out of your mouth. If you are anti- Christmas, I made clear we were talking about NEWS not an anti- Christmas thread. MADE IT CLEAR, what I was talking about. You don't celebrate Christmas, don't derail the thread. And you don't celebrate Christmas. So butt out of the thread. No, you had to say your piece then threatened me. I asked you to stay on topic.


I associate it with the apostasy and I know that it is associated with Babylon, the worship of Baal and is a symbol of the Great Babylon.
You can't simply make up your own facts! History, facts. You can have your own opinion, but you can't make up history and your own facts. smh It doesn't work that way.


I set up this thread to not derail the other one. If you weren't talking about Christmas trees as a "symbol" of the Lord's birth then why did you come to this thread?
No, you didn't stay out of it, you got nasty and completely wigged out over a very simple discussion. So far I had known you to be a normal person to talk to. My land did today destroy that idea. You legalists are one scary, nasty lot. Unreal.



And yet you say you didn't say that the Christmas tree was associated with Christ's birth? You hammered on that repeatedly. All I did was say it isn't.
I assume you're not blind. I said the world associates the tree with Christianity and Christmas. And it is, Again, you make up facts and then throw a fit when people disagree. Get a grip man. Hundreds of churches have a Christmas tree inside the church, are they all tree worshippers on their way to hell?! You don't have a clue what you're talking about. You repeat what you see on the internet not even researching history for yourself. You're wrong, the facts of history don't back you up. And the rest of it, an idol, not a Christmas tree, you mangle and strangle to make it into anti- Christmas, the message you want. Well you are wrong on all counts. Be as arrogant as you want to be but you're easily debunked.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
23,585
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#84
1. The point i have made is to ask why would the Lord have us celebrate Jesus' birth on December 24th in the evening when we know for a fact He wasn't born then?
Well you could celebrate it on September 11 if you so choose. That is most likely the correct date. However given the reality of December 25, there would be no point in having a September Christmas. And in fact God did not direct Christians in this matter at all. There is nothing in the Acts or in the epistles to indicate a commemoration of the birth of Christ. The weekly Remembrance Feast of the Lord's Supper on the Lord's Day is the only thing that is stipulated. So if December 25 makes you uncomfortable, you can ignore it altogether.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#85

I said the world associates the tree with Christianity and Christmas. .
I agree, the world associates the Christmas tree with worldly Christmas, but I don't think the world associates the tree with Christ at Christmas.

For the world Christmas is spelled Xmas, exing out Christ.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
4,783
1,221
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#86
Are you afraid to celebrate Christmas because you've heard that its "pagan" and evil and you are now confused about it? Read on.



Calculating Christmas

William J. Tighe on the Story Behind December 25

Many Christians think that Christians celebrate Christ’s birth on December 25th
because the church fathers appropriated the date of a pagan festival. Almost no one minds, except for a few groups on the fringes of American Evangelicalism, who seem to think that this makes Christmas itself a pagan festival. But it is perhaps interesting to know that the choice of December 25th is the result of attempts among the earliest Christians to figure out the date of Jesus’ birth based on calendrical calculations that had nothing to do with pagan festivals.

Rather, the pagan festival of the “Birth of the Unconquered Son” instituted by the Roman Emperor Aurelian on 25 December 274, was almost certainly an attempt to create a pagan alternative to a date that was already of some significance to Roman Christians. Thus the “pagan origins of Christmas” is a myth without historical substance.

A Mistake
The idea that the date was taken from the pagans goes back to two scholars from the late seventeenth and early eighteenth centuries. Paul Ernst Jablonski, a German Protestant, wished to show that the celebration of Christ’s birth on December 25th was one of the many “pagan-izations” of Christianity that the Church of the fourth century embraced, as one of many “degenerations” that transformed pure apostolic Christianity into Catholicism. Dom Jean Hardouin, a Benedictine monk, tried to show that the Catholic Church adopted pagan festivals for Christian purposes without paganizing the gospel.

In the Julian calendar, created in 45 b.c. under Julius Caesar, the winter solstice fell on December 25th, and it therefore seemed obvious to Jablonski and Hardouin that the day must have had a pagan significance before it had a Christian one. But in fact, the date had no religious significance in the Roman pagan festal calendar before Aurelian’s time, nor did the cult of the sun play a prominent role in Rome before him.
There were two temples of the sun in Rome, one of which (maintained by the clan into which Aurelian was born or adopted) celebrated its dedication festival on August 9th, the other of which celebrated its dedication festival on August 28th. But both of these cults fell into neglect in the second century, when eastern cults of the sun, such as Mithraism, began to win a following in Rome. And in any case, none of these cults, old or new, had festivals associated with solstices or equinoxes.

As things actually happened, Aurelian, who ruled from 270 until his assassination in 275, was hostile to Christianity and appears to have promoted the establishment of the festival of the “Birth of the Unconquered Sun” as a device to unify the various pagan cults of the Roman Empire around a commemoration of the annual “rebirth” of the sun. He led an empire that appeared to be collapsing in the face of internal unrest, rebellions in the provinces, economic decay, and repeated attacks from German tribes to the north and the Persian Empire to the east.

In creating the new feast, he intended the beginning of the lengthening of the daylight, and the arresting of the lengthening of darkness, on December 25th to be a symbol of the hoped-for “rebirth,” or perpetual rejuvenation, of the Roman Empire, resulting from the maintenance of the worship of the gods whose tutelage (the Romans thought) had brought Rome to greatness and world-rule. If it co-opted the Christian celebration, so much the better.

A By-Product
It is true that the first evidence of Christians celebrating December 25th as the date of the Lord’s nativity comes from Rome some years after Aurelian, in a.d. 336, but there is evidence from both the Greek East and the Latin West that Christians attempted to figure out the date of Christ’s birth long before they began to celebrate it liturgically, even in the second and third centuries. The evidence indicates, in fact, that the attribution of the date of December 25th was a by-product of attempts to determine when to celebrate his death and resurrection.
How did this happen? There is a seeming contradiction between the date of the Lord’s death as given in the synoptic Gospels and in John’s Gospel. The synoptics would appear to place it on Passover Day (after the Lord had celebrated the Passover Meal on the preceding evening), and John on the Eve of Passover, just when the Passover lambs were being slaughtered in the Jerusalem Temple for the feast that was to ensue after sunset on that day.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
4,783
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#87
Solving this problem involves answering the question of whether the Lord’s Last Supper was a Passover Meal, or a meal celebrated a day earlier, which we cannot enter into here. Suffice it to say that the early Church followed John rather than the synoptics, and thus believed that Christ’s death would have taken place on 14 Nisan, according to the Jewish lunar calendar. (Modern scholars agree, by the way, that the death of Christ could have taken place only in a.d. 30 or 33, as those two are the only years of that time when the eve of Passover could have fallen on a Friday, the possibilities being either 7 April 30 or 3 April 33.)

However, as the early Church was forcibly separated from Judaism, it entered into a world with different calendars, and had to devise its own time to celebrate the Lord’s Passion, not least so as to be independent of the rabbinic calculations of the date of Passover. Also, since the Jewish calendar was a lunar calendar consisting of twelve months of thirty days each, every few years a thirteenth month had to be added by a decree of the Sanhedrin to keep the calendar in synchronization with the equinoxes and solstices, as well as to prevent the seasons from “straying” into inappropriate months.

Apart from the difficulty Christians would have had in following—or perhaps even being accurately informed about—the dating of Passover in any given year, to follow a lunar calendar of their own devising would have set them at odds with both Jews and pagans, and very likely embroiled them in endless disputes among themselves. (The second century saw severe disputes about whether Pascha had always to fall on a Sunday or on whatever weekday followed two days after 14 Artemision/Nisan, but to have followed a lunar calendar would have made such problems much worse.)

These difficulties played out in different ways among the Greek Christians in the eastern part of the empire and the Latin Christians in the western part of it. Greek Christians seem to have wanted to find a date equivalent to 14 Nisan in their own solar calendar, and since Nisan was the month in which the spring equinox occurred, they chose the 14th day of Artemision, the month in which the spring equinox invariably fell in their own calendar. Around a.d. 300, the Greek calendar was superseded by the Roman calendar, and since the dates of the beginnings and endings of the months in these two systems did not coincide, 14 Artemision became April 6th.

In contrast, second-century Latin Christians in Rome and North Africa appear to have desired to establish the historical date on which the Lord Jesus died. By the time of Tertullian they had concluded that he died on Friday, 25 March 29. (As an aside, I will note that this is impossible: 25 March 29 was not a Friday, and Passover Eve in a.d. 29 did not fall on a Friday and was not on March 25th, or in March at all.)

Integral Age
So in the East we have April 6th, in the West, March 25th. At this point, we have to introduce a belief that seems to have been widespread in Judaism at the time of Christ, but which, as it is nowhere taught in the Bible, has completely fallen from the awareness of Christians. The idea is that of the “integral age” of the great Jewish prophets: the idea that the prophets of Israel died on the same dates as their birth or conception.

This notion is a key factor in understanding how some early Christians came to believe that December 25th is the date of Christ’s birth. The early Christians applied this idea to Jesus, so that March 25th and April 6th were not only the supposed dates of Christ’s death, but of his conception or birth as well. There is some fleeting evidence that at least some first- and second-century Christians thought of March 25th or April 6th as the date of Christ’s birth, but rather quickly the assignment of March 25th as the date of Christ’s conception prevailed.

It is to this day, commemorated almost universally among Christians as the Feast of the Annunciation, when the Archangel Gabriel brought the good tidings of a savior to the Virgin Mary, upon whose acquiescence the Eternal Word of God (“Light of Light, True God of True God, begotten of the Father before all ages”) forthwith became incarnate in her womb. What is the length of pregnancy? Nine months. Add nine months to March 25th and you get December 25th; add it to April 6th and you get January 6th. December 25th is Christmas, and January 6th is Epiphany.
Christmas (December 25th) is a feast of Western Christian origin. In Constantinople it appears to have been introduced in 379 or 380. From a sermon of St. John Chrysostom, at the time a renowned ascetic and preacher in his native Antioch, it appears that the feast was first celebrated there on 25 December 386. From these centers it spread throughout the Christian East, being adopted in Alexandria around 432 and in Jerusalem a century or more later. The Armenians, alone among ancient Christian churches, have never adopted it, and to this day celebrate Christ’s birth, manifestation to the magi, and baptism on January 6th.

Western churches, in turn, gradually adopted the January 6th Epiphany feast from the East, Rome doing so sometime between 366 and 394. But in the West, the feast was generally presented as the commemoration of the visit of the magi to the infant Christ, and as such, it was an important feast, but not one of the most important ones—a striking contrast to its position in the East, where it remains the second most important festival of the church year, second only to Pascha (Easter).

In the East, Epiphany far outstrips Christmas. The reason is that the feast celebrates Christ’s baptism in the Jordan and the occasion on which the Voice of the Father and the Descent of the Spirit both manifested for the first time to mortal men the divinity of the Incarnate Christ and the Trinity of the Persons in the One Godhead.

A Christian Feast
Thus, December 25th as the date of the Christ’s birth appears to owe nothing whatsoever to pagan influences upon the practice of the Church during or after Constantine’s time. It is wholly unlikely to have been the actual date of Christ’s birth, but it arose entirely from the efforts of early Latin Christians to determine the historical date of Christ’s death.

And the pagan feast which the Emperor Aurelian instituted on that date in the year 274 was not only an effort to use the winter solstice to make a political statement, but also almost certainly an attempt to give a pagan significance to a date already of importance to Roman Christians. The Christians, in turn, could at a later date re-appropriate the pagan “Birth of the Unconquered Sun” to refer, on the occasion of the birth of Christ, to the rising of the “Sun of Salvation” or the “Sun of Justice.”

William J. Tighe, a Touchstone correspondent, is Associate Professor of History at Muhlenberg College. He refers interested readers to Thomas J. Talley’s The Origins of the Liturgical Year (The Liturgical Press). A draft of this article appeared on the listserve Virtuosity.

http://www.touchstonemag.com/docs/issues/16.10docs/16-10pg12.html
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
12,015
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#88
I will accept that neither you nor Kaylagrl has anything from the Bible that contradicts anything shared in this thread.

Just so you know your comments below also are not found in the bible.


"The winter solstice is December 22nd and they would bring the Christmas tree in and decorate it in order to celebrate the birthday of a Babylonian deity that signifies the AntiChrist. "

And I have provided many verses and church history about Christ-mass every year when those pull out of their stocking the devil to attack the birth of Jesus. in all my years of Christmas celebration Winter solstice, Babylonian deities was never a part of my understanding of Christmas, maybe yours but not mine. having to reach deep into the occult to suggest those who have known that Christmas is about the birth of Jesus and nothing more.

What I find sad is most of you don't even know we do not even know when Jesus was born there is NOTHING ON HIS BIRTH to say it was on the 25th of December. The 25th has been a good day to honor and celebrate the birth of our Lord.

You want to bring attention to the devil, and Babylonian gods? be my guest.

Jesus is the reason for the season. Bash away.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#89
Are you afraid to celebrate Christmas because you've heard that its "pagan" and evil and you are now confused about it? Read on. .
To do or not do something out of fear simply has no part in the life of a Christian. When we accept Christ within we accept strength and purpose within, and living for Christ is our pleasure and joy. As fear was the theme of your post it is not worth reading.

God loves z celebration---God even planned seven parties for us.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,852
8,676
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#90
Oh, no, the Christmas Pharisees are back.
I thought this myself at first, but then I watched the full video and was blessed. It is a wise investment of your time.

"Three men stranded on desert island...

Genee in bottle washes ashore and gives each man one wish...

First man wishes to go back home to Italy and is granted wish...

Second man wishes to go back home to France and is granted his wish also...

Third man says;

'I am so lonely. I wish those other two men were back here to keep me company.' ."
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
30,634
5,479
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#91
Ridiculous Responses

This is Post #91 and this thread isn't even 24 hours old and what is all the fuss over? Half of these posts are pushing the assertion that someone on this thread is saying don't celebrate Christmas. Yet no one has said that. Simply mentioning that some of the practices associated with this holiday are pagan has ignited a firestorm.

For example:

No one on this thread has any issue with the date that we celebrate Christmas on December 25th. You would not know that from many of the posts. It is like looking at someone flail around in the air. I have said repeatedly that God is sovereign, if He wants the church to Celebrate this Holiday when we do you can be sure that is under His sovereignty. Instead I have asked why we would be celebrating this on this day since the Lord was not born this day? My point is not that we need another day, my point is to ask if we don't really understand the celebration.

Second, why is any Christian defending a Christmas tree? I have never said that if you have a Christmas tree that means you are in idol worship. What I have said is that it can range from vanity (meaning it is nothing, simply a decoration) to idol worship. There are people to whom it is idol worship, that doesn't mean it is you. This is historical fact. How is it that anyone would have an issue with this? Surely everyone knows that Christianity adopted the the various pagan rituals during the winter solstice for Christmas. This shouldn't have been news to anyone anymore that saying "Easter" is the name of a pagan God.

I don't get it? I assume no Christian would bring that thing into their house without praying to the Lord and if they have the life and peace from Him why are you responding so vehemently? I brought this to the Lord and I do not have the life or the peace to bring that thing into my house, why would that bother you? Surely you can understand that a Christian would not want to bring an idol from the worship of Baal into their house?

I have seen some use the verse by Paul that says an idol is nothing. This is true, if I go to a Christmas party at work and they have a Christmas tree up it means nothing to me, unless some believer I have been fellowshipping with is bothered by it.

However, the idea that someone would say that Paul might have had something similar in his house is absurd. It would be total hypocrisy. He says clearly that if the idol stumbles his brother he won't eat. You can do that to a party you are invited to but if they then find you have that same idol at home you would be a total hypocrite.
 
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kaylagrl

Guest
#92
Ridiculous Responses

This is Post #91 and this thread isn't even 24 hours old and what is all the fuss over? Half of these posts are pushing the assertion that someone on this thread is saying don't celebrate Christmas. Yet no one has said that. Simply mentioning that some of the practices associated with this holiday are pagan has ignited a firestorm.

For example:

No one on this thread has any issue with the date that we celebrate Christmas on December 25th. You would not know that from many of the posts. It is like looking at someone flail around in the air. I have said repeatedly that God is sovereign, if He wants the church to Celebrate this Holiday when we do you can be sure that is under His sovereignty. Instead I have asked why we would be celebrating this on this day since the Lord was not born this day? My point is not that we need another day, my point is to ask if we don't really understand the celebration.
As was said above, we do understand the reason for the celebration "Jesus is the Reason for the Season" Pick any other day of the year, call the celebration The Big Birthday, and the world will have cards, gifts, ornaments, candy, and a million other things. It will also be made commercial, that is the country we live in. It's called capitalism. You don't have to partake in all the bells and whistles. You don't have to have a yule log, I don't, you don't have to have a tree, many don't, you don't have to have presents, go give to a family in need. Heaven knows the state of Kentucky is in devastation and could use help. Celebrate however you wish to, or not to. No one cares.



Second, why is any Christian defending a Christmas tree?
Because you are wrong about Jer. 10 and your two pastor friends are too.

I have never said that if you have a Christmas tree that means you are in idol worship. What I have said is that it can range from vanity (meaning it is nothing, simply a decoration) to idol worship.
There are people to whom it is idol worship, that doesn't mean it is you.
Maybe the issue is you don't understand what idol worship is. In the OT they would bow down, as you would to God, you would prostrate yourself in front of the idol. You believed that item had power to give you good luck, to keep bad spirits away, to protect your crops. In Jer. it says the idol cannot speak, it's like a scarecrow, it holds no power. Unless you're a nut case no one prays, bows down or expects the tree to remove evil spirits. It's a decoration, same as any flower or plant you bring in the house.

I have a friend that is a carpenter. My father called him one day and asked what he was doing. He said he was building an alter for a god he didn't believe in. The people that were having the home built had an alter put in their home to pray and idolize items to a false God. That is the difference between idol worship and a Christmas tree. There is no comparison. The tree is not an idol.



This is historical fact. How is it that anyone would have an issue with this? Surely everyone knows that Christianity adopted the the various pagan rituals during the winter solstice for Christmas. This shouldn't have been news to anyone anymore that saying "Easter" is the name of a pagan God.
And there's the issue, it's not historical fact. The Christmas tree is a fairly new idea, as far as Christmas goes. These things have been repeated from one article, as the internet does, with no question. You are allowed to question, that's why I have an issue with Fauci. When someone says you can't question this, I question that. I want to know what the real facts are. I'm assuming you would too.



I don't get it? I assume no Christian would bring that thing into their house
I brought this to the Lord and I do not have the life or the peace to bring that thing into my house, why would that bother you?Surely you can understand that a Christian would not want to bring an idol from the worship of Baal into their house?
And now we're back to judging. If you don't see it as part of the Christmas celebration, that's your choice. It's not an idol, we know what an idol is. There is nothing wrong with having a Christmas tree in your house, your church, or anywhere else. If you feel convicted, fine, but there is no reason to be, it is not an idol, which is what Jer. 10 is talking about.


However, the idea that someone would say that Paul might have had something similar in his house is absurd. It would be total hypocrisy. He says clearly that if the idol stumbles his brother he won't eat. You can do that to a party you are invited to but if they then find you have that same idol at home you would be a total hypocrite.
But it's not an idol, and you dogmatically insist that it is. Then you say not one should be bothered by your opinion. It's like you're saying " Well you can go sin but I won't take part in that cause I'm not a sinner like you. I wouldn't have that thing in my house." Then we are back to it being an idol again. Then you say it's only an idol to certain people. This whole argument is nuttier than a fruitcake. We keep coming back around the circle again. It's not an idol, end of story. You don't want one, don't get it, but don't try to throw shade on people calling it an idol, it's simply not true.
 
S

SophieT

Guest
#93
View attachment 233901
Really, try googling Buddha Christmas ornament
why don't you go to Times Square and tell people there to google whatever

Christians who worship Christ are not hanging those things on their trees

you are being petty to make a point that does not apply
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#94
why don't you go to Times Square and tell people there to google whatever

Christians who worship Christ are not hanging those things on their trees

you are being petty to make a point that does not apply

Exactly. But that's legalism. And he'll bring it full circle again.
 
S

SophieT

Guest
#97
lol I know, I'm gettin' awful dizzy on this ride. I think someone needs to pull me off cause I can't find the exit!! Help!!
click your shoes together 3 times and imagine you are back on solid ground ;)
 

JTB

Well-known member
Aug 31, 2021
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#98
Oh, no, the Christmas Pharisees are back.
I would put it a little kinder - the milk drinkers are pushing their untrained errors upon us again.
 
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SophieT

Guest
#99
I would put it a little kinder - the milk drinkers are pushing their untrained errors upon us again.
sometimes you wonder what else is in the milk though :unsure::whistle:;)
 

JTB

Well-known member
Aug 31, 2021
1,928
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Ummm, I don’t know anyone consciously or unconsciously celebrating the Son of Perdition on Dec, 25th.
Well, I know of one who lives in fear of that.