Church planting?
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J
When the Spirit of God moves, there are always problems. It stirs up the enemy and ambitious men and women will quickly learn to manipulate the situation to their advantage. Then there's the content establishment. But if it's God that's moving, and I'm sure of it, then I'm all for it.
I've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly, of a genuine move of God. There was nothing wrong with what the Lord did. It was on us. I was an immature believer, and not a disciple, at the time and didn't understand about things such as excesses and jockeying for position. I'm wiser now.
I've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly, of a genuine move of God. There was nothing wrong with what the Lord did. It was on us. I was an immature believer, and not a disciple, at the time and didn't understand about things such as excesses and jockeying for position. I'm wiser now.
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"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."—Matthew 16:18
Jesus owns the church. He bought it with His own blood. He's the church's builder and sustainer. It's not our job to plant or build churches; our job is to plant Jesus. Once the seed is planted we tend and water, but it's Christ who gives the increase and He who establishes the churches.
Jesus owns the church. He bought it with His own blood. He's the church's builder and sustainer. It's not our job to plant or build churches; our job is to plant Jesus. Once the seed is planted we tend and water, but it's Christ who gives the increase and He who establishes the churches.
J
As far as I know, Paul planted churches. Planting churches is a good thing. If it's the Lord doing the leading. Otherwise, I wouldn't be interested.
I recall Wagner's church planting teaching. The first time I heard it, I knew it replaced the Lord's leading, even if it was based on the Lord's past leading. I was not surprised when I learned that he'd abandoned it.
I recall Wagner's church planting teaching. The first time I heard it, I knew it replaced the Lord's leading, even if it was based on the Lord's past leading. I was not surprised when I learned that he'd abandoned it.
But it is our job to sow the seed of the Gospel -- the Word of God. And the end result of that sowing is local churches. So if you have a problem with that you will have to take it up with the Lord, who sent letters specifically to seven churches. Not one on those letters said that those churches should never have been established (planted).
Why would I have a problem with it? That's what I've been saying all along, if you'd bothered to read.
Even so, I see that no one here really gets it (with maybe one or two exceptions) so I'll say it again: Paul did not plant churches. He didn't say, "I think I'll go to Philippi and start a church so Jesus and the Holy Spirit can show up." He planted Christ! He planted seeds. The Spirit gave the increase and established the churches.
We've got it backwards. We think we're doing the Spirit some big favor by planting Him a few churches where He can go and reside. But we're actually hindering the Spirit. Some may think I'm splitting hairs but if you ponder this you'll see how we're hindering the Spirit by trying to do his work for Him.
Even so, I see that no one here really gets it (with maybe one or two exceptions) so I'll say it again: Paul did not plant churches. He didn't say, "I think I'll go to Philippi and start a church so Jesus and the Holy Spirit can show up." He planted Christ! He planted seeds. The Spirit gave the increase and established the churches.
We've got it backwards. We think we're doing the Spirit some big favor by planting Him a few churches where He can go and reside. But we're actually hindering the Spirit. Some may think I'm splitting hairs but if you ponder this you'll see how we're hindering the Spirit by trying to do his work for Him.
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Then we come to the defination: what means planting a church?
What means planting a church today? And what means planting a church in the days of Paul?
Through his travel and teaching in certain places like corinth (1 and a half years) and Ephesus where he stayed 3 years, when I am not wrong we can conclude that he plantet churches. He gave order how the structure of leadership should be and he order eldest in different churches. He had burden about churches and took care in prayer and encourage them.
What else then chuchplanting is this?
It was far more then only church planting. He had the burden of a shepherd for his sheep.
What means planting a church today? And what means planting a church in the days of Paul?
Through his travel and teaching in certain places like corinth (1 and a half years) and Ephesus where he stayed 3 years, when I am not wrong we can conclude that he plantet churches. He gave order how the structure of leadership should be and he order eldest in different churches. He had burden about churches and took care in prayer and encourage them.
What else then chuchplanting is this?
It was far more then only church planting. He had the burden of a shepherd for his sheep.
He ordained Presbyters for the Church in Crete, and commanded Titus to do the same in every city.
Tit 1:5: "For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you"
Pulpit Commentary from Bible Hub:
"
Pulpit Commentary
Verse 5. - Were for are, A.V.; appoint for ordain, A.V.; gave thee charge for had appointed thee, A.V. Left I thee in Crete. We have no account of St. Paul's visit to Crete, nor do we know how the gospel was first brought to Crete. It may have been by some of those "Cretes" who were at Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost, and heard the apostles speak in their tongue "the wonderful works of God" (Acts 2:11), or by other Christian Jews visiting the Jewish community in Crete (note to ver. 1). If St. Paul was returning from Spain, and travelling by ship eastward, Crete would be on his way. The importance of the island, with which he made some acquaintance on his voyage from Caesarea to Rome (Acts 27:7, 8), and the large Jewish colony there, may naturally have inclined him to visit it. How long he remained there we do not know, but he did not stay long enough to organize the Church there completely. There were still things "wanting" (τὰ λείποντα), as it follows. This mention of Crete is an important chronological mark. The order of St. Paul's progress, as gathered from the three pastoral Epistles, is very distinct - Crete, Miletus, Troas, Macedonia, Corinth, Nicopolis, Rome. He dropped Titus at Crete, and left Timothy behind at Ephesus. The Epistle to Titus, therefore, is the first of the three pastoral Epistles, and this is borne out by another circumstance. When he wrote to Titus he had not made up his mind whether he should send Artemas or Tychicus to take his place in Crete when he rejoined the apostle (Titus 3:12). But when he wrote 2 Timothy he had sent Tychicus to Ephesus to replace Timothy (2 Timothy 4:12), and Titus had already joined him, and been sent on by him to Dalmatia, presumably from Nicopolis. Set in order (ἐπιδιορθώσῃ); only here in the New Testament, and not found in the LXX. nor in classical Greek, except as a technical word in the art of rhetoric. But διορθόω is very common in classical Greek (see ἐπανόρθωσις, 2 Timothy 3:16). The force of ἐπί in the compound here is "further," or "in addition." St. Paul had set the Church in order up to a certain point. But there were still certain things wanting, τὰ λείποντα (see Titus 3:13; Luke 18:22); and these Titus was to supply and give the finishing touch to. Appoint (καταστήσῃς). This is a better rendering than the A.V. "ordain," because it is a general word for "to appoint, make." Probably the A.V. "ordain" was not intended to be taken in a strictly technical sense, but is used as in Hebrews 5:1; Hebrews 8:3. The technical word was usually "to order." "The Ordering of Deacons," or "of Priests," is the title of the service in the Book of Common Prayer. "Meet to be ordered," "shall surcease from ordering," occur repeatedly in the rubrics, Elders (πρεσβυτέρους); i.e. presbyters, or priests (comp. Acts 14:23; and see Acts 11:30, note). In every city (κατὰ πόλιν); city by city. The phrase has a peculiar significance in Crete, which used to be famous for its hundred cities. It shows, too, that Christianity was widely spread among the cities of the island. The germ of the episcopal office, one bishop and many presbyters, is here very conspicuous." From: https://biblehub.com/titus/1-5.htm
Tit 1:5: "For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you"
Pulpit Commentary from Bible Hub:
"
Pulpit Commentary
Verse 5. - Were for are, A.V.; appoint for ordain, A.V.; gave thee charge for had appointed thee, A.V. Left I thee in Crete. We have no account of St. Paul's visit to Crete, nor do we know how the gospel was first brought to Crete. It may have been by some of those "Cretes" who were at Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost, and heard the apostles speak in their tongue "the wonderful works of God" (Acts 2:11), or by other Christian Jews visiting the Jewish community in Crete (note to ver. 1). If St. Paul was returning from Spain, and travelling by ship eastward, Crete would be on his way. The importance of the island, with which he made some acquaintance on his voyage from Caesarea to Rome (Acts 27:7, 8), and the large Jewish colony there, may naturally have inclined him to visit it. How long he remained there we do not know, but he did not stay long enough to organize the Church there completely. There were still things "wanting" (τὰ λείποντα), as it follows. This mention of Crete is an important chronological mark. The order of St. Paul's progress, as gathered from the three pastoral Epistles, is very distinct - Crete, Miletus, Troas, Macedonia, Corinth, Nicopolis, Rome. He dropped Titus at Crete, and left Timothy behind at Ephesus. The Epistle to Titus, therefore, is the first of the three pastoral Epistles, and this is borne out by another circumstance. When he wrote to Titus he had not made up his mind whether he should send Artemas or Tychicus to take his place in Crete when he rejoined the apostle (Titus 3:12). But when he wrote 2 Timothy he had sent Tychicus to Ephesus to replace Timothy (2 Timothy 4:12), and Titus had already joined him, and been sent on by him to Dalmatia, presumably from Nicopolis. Set in order (ἐπιδιορθώσῃ); only here in the New Testament, and not found in the LXX. nor in classical Greek, except as a technical word in the art of rhetoric. But διορθόω is very common in classical Greek (see ἐπανόρθωσις, 2 Timothy 3:16). The force of ἐπί in the compound here is "further," or "in addition." St. Paul had set the Church in order up to a certain point. But there were still certain things wanting, τὰ λείποντα (see Titus 3:13; Luke 18:22); and these Titus was to supply and give the finishing touch to. Appoint (καταστήσῃς). This is a better rendering than the A.V. "ordain," because it is a general word for "to appoint, make." Probably the A.V. "ordain" was not intended to be taken in a strictly technical sense, but is used as in Hebrews 5:1; Hebrews 8:3. The technical word was usually "to order." "The Ordering of Deacons," or "of Priests," is the title of the service in the Book of Common Prayer. "Meet to be ordered," "shall surcease from ordering," occur repeatedly in the rubrics, Elders (πρεσβυτέρους); i.e. presbyters, or priests (comp. Acts 14:23; and see Acts 11:30, note). In every city (κατὰ πόλιν); city by city. The phrase has a peculiar significance in Crete, which used to be famous for its hundred cities. It shows, too, that Christianity was widely spread among the cities of the island. The germ of the episcopal office, one bishop and many presbyters, is here very conspicuous." From: https://biblehub.com/titus/1-5.htm
You forgot one thing—he planted seeds of the gospel before any of these other things.
He didn't plant churches, he planted Christ and Christ, as head, built the churches. He worked through Paul and others but it was He who established the churches. That's where we've gone off course, we think it's up to us to establish the churches when that's not our responsibility. We think we can do it better than He can.
He didn't plant churches, he planted Christ and Christ, as head, built the churches. He worked through Paul and others but it was He who established the churches. That's where we've gone off course, we think it's up to us to establish the churches when that's not our responsibility. We think we can do it better than He can.