Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship?
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This is what happens when you lean to your own understanding. Pointless debates that profit little for the body of Christ. This seem such a waste of time to even discuss as souls are being lost to the enemy and here is a debate on musical instruments being sin? No old testament foundation no new testament Chuch
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Nowhere in scripture is there any evidence of the new testament church using mechanical instruments for worship, if that angers you, produce the book chapter and verse...
The command was for all, that means what ever "stringed instrument" (Psallo) that is used, all... every single one (nobody can worship for you) must play that instrument.
So if you want to call it a guitar, then every single one in your assembly needs to learn and play the guitar, or take the bible for what it says, Paul says the instrument is the heart :
Eph 5:19 (KJV)
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
The command was for all, that means what ever "stringed instrument" (Psallo) that is used, all... every single one (nobody can worship for you) must play that instrument.
So if you want to call it a guitar, then every single one in your assembly needs to learn and play the guitar, or take the bible for what it says, Paul says the instrument is the heart :
Eph 5:19 (KJV)
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
P
The New Testament shows that God is praised in heaven through the use of instrumental music (Rev. 5:8; 14:2-3). Revelation 15:2-3 shows that the resurrected saints will sing praise to God, and that their voices will be accompanied by the playing of harps.Now the harp is a instrument as far as I know but the whole matter is quite pointless. Old testament scripture was not in place even in Pauls time until after the Death of Jesus so all this foolishness about insturmenst is just that foolishness. In all your getting get understanding and lean not to your own understanding which seems to be the case here. This is not even worth any more discussion it is quite pointless. Some falsely claim that the Old Testament is not relevant to God’s Church todaythat is very carnal thinking to say the least. Christ Himself stated, in Matthew 4:4, that man ought to live “by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.” That then means to me every word.He showed that the Old Testament is indeed a valid part of God’s total Word (Luke 24:44). In II Timothy 3:16, the Apostle Paul wrote that Scripture is “profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousnessbut again he only had old testament teachings at that point. The debate then becomes when did the New testament start and all other foolishness. Look if you want to sing sing if you dont want to use instruments fine but don't act like you are correct for the whole body of Christ when your understanding is fundemantaly flawed. Just a few thoughts.
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I am guessing that more than half here don't Worship, AT ALL! Some in front of the TV, some out Hunting or Fishing. others shopping, Worship is something of the past for those who are old and about to die and really want to go to heaven.
I hope I am wrong, because there seems to be some really sincere people here talking about the Lord and his church.
There are many here believe you can be saved without The Church. Its sad.
I hope I am wrong, because there seems to be some really sincere people here talking about the Lord and his church.
There are many here believe you can be saved without The Church. Its sad.
Why would you say that is a sin?
What is your authorization for congregational singing? Why would you assume 'speaking to yourselves' refers to congregational singing and not turn-taking solos? Where is your authorization for meeting in a special purpose church building that is not a private home or the temple in Jerusalem?
I spoke with a Christian Church pastor who said that he'd read a book that explained that this wasn't always the case in your movement, and that during the Civil War, the Confederates confiscated or bought up the metal from church organs to use in the war which contributed to the noninstrumental trend.
What is your authorization for congregational singing? Why would you assume 'speaking to yourselves' refers to congregational singing and not turn-taking solos? Where is your authorization for meeting in a special purpose church building that is not a private home or the temple in Jerusalem?
I spoke with a Christian Church pastor who said that he'd read a book that explained that this wasn't always the case in your movement, and that during the Civil War, the Confederates confiscated or bought up the metal from church organs to use in the war which contributed to the noninstrumental trend.
We must be silent where the bible is silent. There is no evidence in the bible that God disapproves of instrumental music. Those that claim we can't use instruments because God did not give authority for it should remember that, if led by the Spirit, there is no law...and where there is no law there is no violation (and there was never a law against instruments anyway). Instrumental music is fine if it is done to edify the church and to praise God. However it should not a concert for your entertainment. Everything must be done in an orderly manner so that God will receive the Glory.
you are still faced with the problem that Eph. 5:19 is a command to "all" so if you say the making melody is with mechanical musical instruments (say like a guitar) then all in your assembly must learn to worship him with your own guitar as one cannot worship for another...
Or you can use the stringed instrument Paul said to use, the one God himself gave you and me and everyone he created, the "heart"
Ephesians 5:19 (NKJV)
speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,
Colossians 3:16 (NKJV)
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Or you can use the stringed instrument Paul said to use, the one God himself gave you and me and everyone he created, the "heart"
Ephesians 5:19 (NKJV)
speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,
Colossians 3:16 (NKJV)
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
So your assumption is that if one person is playing a instrument that all must be playing at the same time - Where is that at? And you further assume that one's heart is, what, locked up, indisposed, while you play or listen to an instrument. I was raised in the Church of Christ (and am currently a member) and actually did believe this unscriptural idea. For some reason, at some point, somebody started arguing about this and all it does is cause division. Then I started actually reading the bible, from beginning to end, and their is no reason for this viewpoint. However, if you feel it is wrong then it is wrong for you.
Can you sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs and make melody in your heart while playing a harp, guitar, etc. - Yes (if you can play an instrument at all).
Can you sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs and make melody in your heart while playing a harp, guitar, etc. - Yes (if you can play an instrument at all).
You say you read the whole bible, now read just these two verses, the command to "sing psalms and hymns and spritual songs" to "one another" meaning they would have to (if your stringed instrument is a guitar) they would have to "play the guitar to one another", you cannot worship for someone else, therefore you cannot play for someone else
Ephesians 5:19 (NKJV)
speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,
Colossians 3:16 (NKJV)
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
So if your CoC congregation thinks they are okay with IM, then they are not CoC (maybe the liberal United CoC which is not the CoC).
Ephesians 5:19 (NKJV)
speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,
Colossians 3:16 (NKJV)
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
So if your CoC congregation thinks they are okay with IM, then they are not CoC (maybe the liberal United CoC which is not the CoC).
Based on what authority do you say that?
The piano and electric guitar at church is symbolic, too.
But we are to pray that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
The Psalms teach that it is good to sing praise to the Lord to the sound of instruments. There was music in the temple. There may have been the sound of instrumental music in Solomon's Porch at times when the church gathered.
Jews got rid of instruments in the synagogue in the second century.
There are no literal harps: CLICKChrist in Isaiah 30 says that when you hear the SOUNDS of wind, string and percussion instruments it is the MARK of God driving His enemies into "hell."
Revelation 18-19 shows that these SOUNDS are God "casting them alive into the lake of fire."
Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, [Jerusalem]
......and with him an hundred forty and four thousand,
......having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.
But the SOUND in the AIR above Zion or the Church:
Revelation 14:2NIV And I heard a sound from heaven
......LIKE the roar of rushing waters and
......LIKE a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was
......LIKE that of harpists playing their harps.
Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne,
......and before the four beasts, and the elders:
......and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand,
......which were tredeemed from the earth.
Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Revelation 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
IF YOU ARE STILL LIVING AND NOT A DEAD VIRGIN. Instead of hiring musical performers always known as parasites in sacrificial systems the command is to GO into all the World because the world will never PAY for your "theater of holy entertainment."
Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven,
......having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth,
......and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Instead of worshiping the musicians and the works of THEIR OWN HAND
Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice,
......Fear God, and give glory to him;
......for the hour of his judgment is come:
......and worship him that MADE heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
The speakers, singers and instrument players in Revelation 17-18 are AGENTS of the Babylon mother of harlots.
John calls them SORCERERS and says they will be cast alive into the lake of fire.
Revelation 14:8 And there followed another angel,
......saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen,
......that great city, because she made all nations
drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice,
......If any man worship the beast and his image,
......and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The MARK is defined as music in a holy place
The BEAST is defined as "A new style of music or Satyric drama." A SHE goat is a Cappella
The IMAGE is REpresenting the Word of God in a song to silence the Word.
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
......which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;
......and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone
......in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints:
......here are they that keep the commandments of God, and THE FAITH of Jesus.
Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth:
......Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours;
and their works do follow them.
Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Revelation 18-19 shows that these SOUNDS are God "casting them alive into the lake of fire."
Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, [Jerusalem]
......and with him an hundred forty and four thousand,
......having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.
But the SOUND in the AIR above Zion or the Church:
Revelation 14:2NIV And I heard a sound from heaven
......LIKE the roar of rushing waters and
......LIKE a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was
......LIKE that of harpists playing their harps.
Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne,
......and before the four beasts, and the elders:
......and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand,
......which were tredeemed from the earth.
Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Revelation 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
IF YOU ARE STILL LIVING AND NOT A DEAD VIRGIN. Instead of hiring musical performers always known as parasites in sacrificial systems the command is to GO into all the World because the world will never PAY for your "theater of holy entertainment."
Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven,
......having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth,
......and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Instead of worshiping the musicians and the works of THEIR OWN HAND
Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice,
......Fear God, and give glory to him;
......for the hour of his judgment is come:
......and worship him that MADE heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
The speakers, singers and instrument players in Revelation 17-18 are AGENTS of the Babylon mother of harlots.
John calls them SORCERERS and says they will be cast alive into the lake of fire.
Revelation 14:8 And there followed another angel,
......saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen,
......that great city, because she made all nations
drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice,
......If any man worship the beast and his image,
......and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The MARK is defined as music in a holy place
The BEAST is defined as "A new style of music or Satyric drama." A SHE goat is a Cappella
The IMAGE is REpresenting the Word of God in a song to silence the Word.
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
......which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;
......and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone
......in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints:
......here are they that keep the commandments of God, and THE FAITH of Jesus.
Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth:
......Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours;
and their works do follow them.
Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
twanging harps and blowing trumpets with ONE NOTE is not music. The Jacob-Cursed and God-abandoned Levites executed 3,000 of their "brethren" because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. God did not command king, kingdom, temple, animal sacrifices or NOISE where prophesying with instruments is defined as soothsaying-sorcery.
The command was that the Levites under the KING and COMMANDERS OF THE ARMY (not priests) were to STAND IN RANKS and the NOISE warned any godly person who was INSIDE THE GATES during this HOLOCAUST was to be executed by the Levites who also carried their swords.
The NOISE would have been in the INNER COURT or slaughter pit not commanded by God. Their noise in worshiping the starry host is called EXORCISM.
No one would have been in any of the "holy precinct" during animal slaughter but the God-abandoned priesthood. By the time of Jesus the sacrificial system would have been effectively dead for 400 years. The priesthood got the job as high bidders and most godly Jews had fled Jerusalem.
The GODLY people such as Jesus attended SYNAGOGUE where vocal or instrumental rejoicing or self-speak rhetoric was OUTLAWED from the wilderness onward.
There was NEVER any singing or playing instruments in the synagogue: the first Rabi tried to steal a synagogue in Germany in 1815 so that he could IMPOSE an organ.
NO PRAISE SERVICE IN THE SYNAGOGUE or historic church before singing was added as LITURGY about the year 373
The command was that the Levites under the KING and COMMANDERS OF THE ARMY (not priests) were to STAND IN RANKS and the NOISE warned any godly person who was INSIDE THE GATES during this HOLOCAUST was to be executed by the Levites who also carried their swords.
The NOISE would have been in the INNER COURT or slaughter pit not commanded by God. Their noise in worshiping the starry host is called EXORCISM.
No one would have been in any of the "holy precinct" during animal slaughter but the God-abandoned priesthood. By the time of Jesus the sacrificial system would have been effectively dead for 400 years. The priesthood got the job as high bidders and most godly Jews had fled Jerusalem.
The GODLY people such as Jesus attended SYNAGOGUE where vocal or instrumental rejoicing or self-speak rhetoric was OUTLAWED from the wilderness onward.
There was NEVER any singing or playing instruments in the synagogue: the first Rabi tried to steal a synagogue in Germany in 1815 so that he could IMPOSE an organ.
NO PRAISE SERVICE IN THE SYNAGOGUE or historic church before singing was added as LITURGY about the year 373
Arguing that Isaiah 30 is condemning the use of instruments makes no sense in context. We have to look at the whole of scripture:
Psalm 147:7
Sing to the Lord with grateful praise;
make music to our God on the harp.
Also, look at Psalm 150.
KSublett,
Many of your comments and interpretations are bizzaar and obviously false. Worshipping the starry host and other false gods was a problem on and off in Israel. That doesn't mean there was anything wrong with prophesying on musical instruments. One of the prophets called for a minstrel when he was asked to prophesy. The minstrel played and then the Spirit of God came on him and he prophesied.
The website you linked to makes all kinds of liberal arguments. If you hold to a high view of scripture, you aren't going to believe the pagan interpretations of the Jewish religion as genuine. I don't believe that Dionysus is a real god. Back then, some of the adherents of Greek religion would interpret other nations gods in reference to their own. There was a temple to Zeus/Baal, for example. We shouldn't believe their blasphemous conclusions when they tried to interpret the Hebrew religion through their pagan filter.
It is also not right to ignore all the very clear positive statements about instruments in the Bible and believe that there is are all kinds of secret encoded messages in the Bible, that we need pagan literature to decode, to teach us some secret super-important message that instrumental music is evil. Sorry, but it doesn't make any sense to treat the Bible that way.
Psalm 147:7
Sing to the Lord with grateful praise;
make music to our God on the harp.
Also, look at Psalm 150.
KSublett,
Many of your comments and interpretations are bizzaar and obviously false. Worshipping the starry host and other false gods was a problem on and off in Israel. That doesn't mean there was anything wrong with prophesying on musical instruments. One of the prophets called for a minstrel when he was asked to prophesy. The minstrel played and then the Spirit of God came on him and he prophesied.
The website you linked to makes all kinds of liberal arguments. If you hold to a high view of scripture, you aren't going to believe the pagan interpretations of the Jewish religion as genuine. I don't believe that Dionysus is a real god. Back then, some of the adherents of Greek religion would interpret other nations gods in reference to their own. There was a temple to Zeus/Baal, for example. We shouldn't believe their blasphemous conclusions when they tried to interpret the Hebrew religion through their pagan filter.
It is also not right to ignore all the very clear positive statements about instruments in the Bible and believe that there is are all kinds of secret encoded messages in the Bible, that we need pagan literature to decode, to teach us some secret super-important message that instrumental music is evil. Sorry, but it doesn't make any sense to treat the Bible that way.
Psalm 150 is really a HALAL: David was a king and worshipped the starry host. That's why he wanted to MAKE SELF VILE in the firmament. The instruments in Halal 150 are all connected to bad women and were NEVER used inside of any presumed 'holy place.' Christ OUTLAWED all rhetoric and vocal or instrumental rejoicing for the Church of Christ (the Rock) in the Wilderness. Only the Jacob-cursed and God-abandoned Levites made instrumental NOISE but if they came NEAR any holy thing or INTO any "holy" place God commanded that their brethren execute them.
CLICK: Sorry, you missed 2 Kings where God SOUNDS DOOM by using musical instruments and makes people SELF-DESTRUCT.
Elisha was not a WORSHIP LEADER. If you read 2 Kings you will give up proof texts.
When MOAB refused to be fleeced by Ahab
And Mesha king of Moab was a sheepmaster,
and rendered unto the king of Israel an hundred thousand lambs, and an hundred thousand rams, with the wool. 2 Kings 3: 4
But it came to pass, when Ahab was dead, that the king of Moab rebelled against the king of Israel. 2 Kings 3: 5
And king Jehoram went out of Samaria the same time,and numbered all Israel. 2 Kings 3: 6
And he went and sent to Jehoshaphat the king of Judah, saying, The king of Moab hath rebelled against me: wilt thou go with me against Moab to battle?
They forced Elisha was FORCED to PROPHESY for the king of Israel and when forced the HARP was to sound the king's doom and create such panic that the armies would SELF DESTRUCT.
God worked a miracle to TRICK Israel by using a lake of WATER which was confused with BLOOD.
And they said, This is blood: the kings are surely slain, and they have smitten one another: now therefore, Moab, to the spoil. 2 Kings 3: 23
And when they came to the camp of Israel, the Israelites rose up and smote the Moabites, so that they fled before them: but they went forward smiting the Moabites, even in their country. 2 Kings 3: 24
And they beat down the cities, and on every good piece of land cast every man his stone, and filled it; and they stopped all the wells of water, and felled all the good trees: only in Kir-haraseth left they the stones thereof; howbeit the slingers went about it, and smote it. 2 Kings 3: 25
And when the king of Moab saw that the battle was too sore for him, he took with him seven hundred men that drew swords, to break through even unto the king of Edom: but they could not. 2 Kings 3: 26
Then he took his eldest sonthat should have reigned in his stead,and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall.And there was great indignation against Israel: and they departed from him, and returned to their own land. 2 Kings 3: 27
THE SOUNDS OF INSTRUMENTS ARE ALWAYS A PRELUDE TO BURNING. God used Elisha to TRICK the king of Israel into DESTROYING all of his sources of UNGODLY Tithes and Offerings. People who IMPOSE instruments boast about SACRIFICING anyone who does not conform: "Get over it or get out" as deliberate SOWING OF DISCORD: God hates them and they will burn according to S
cripture.
CLICK: Sorry, you missed 2 Kings where God SOUNDS DOOM by using musical instruments and makes people SELF-DESTRUCT.
Elisha was not a WORSHIP LEADER. If you read 2 Kings you will give up proof texts.
When MOAB refused to be fleeced by Ahab
And Mesha king of Moab was a sheepmaster,
and rendered unto the king of Israel an hundred thousand lambs, and an hundred thousand rams, with the wool. 2 Kings 3: 4
But it came to pass, when Ahab was dead, that the king of Moab rebelled against the king of Israel. 2 Kings 3: 5
And king Jehoram went out of Samaria the same time,and numbered all Israel. 2 Kings 3: 6
And he went and sent to Jehoshaphat the king of Judah, saying, The king of Moab hath rebelled against me: wilt thou go with me against Moab to battle?
They forced Elisha was FORCED to PROPHESY for the king of Israel and when forced the HARP was to sound the king's doom and create such panic that the armies would SELF DESTRUCT.
God worked a miracle to TRICK Israel by using a lake of WATER which was confused with BLOOD.
And they said, This is blood: the kings are surely slain, and they have smitten one another: now therefore, Moab, to the spoil. 2 Kings 3: 23
And when they came to the camp of Israel, the Israelites rose up and smote the Moabites, so that they fled before them: but they went forward smiting the Moabites, even in their country. 2 Kings 3: 24
And they beat down the cities, and on every good piece of land cast every man his stone, and filled it; and they stopped all the wells of water, and felled all the good trees: only in Kir-haraseth left they the stones thereof; howbeit the slingers went about it, and smote it. 2 Kings 3: 25
And when the king of Moab saw that the battle was too sore for him, he took with him seven hundred men that drew swords, to break through even unto the king of Edom: but they could not. 2 Kings 3: 26
Then he took his eldest sonthat should have reigned in his stead,and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall.And there was great indignation against Israel: and they departed from him, and returned to their own land. 2 Kings 3: 27
THE SOUNDS OF INSTRUMENTS ARE ALWAYS A PRELUDE TO BURNING. God used Elisha to TRICK the king of Israel into DESTROYING all of his sources of UNGODLY Tithes and Offerings. People who IMPOSE instruments boast about SACRIFICING anyone who does not conform: "Get over it or get out" as deliberate SOWING OF DISCORD: God hates them and they will burn according to S
cripture.
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