Conclusion From Beware the Pseudo-Rapture Doctrine 4

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cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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On the contrary, there is absolutely ZERO evidence of a "rapture" a "translation" of still living mortal bodies during the tribulation.
Or the Second Coming for that matter.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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The fact that pre-tribbers have to resort to the highly allegorical interpretation of John being told to 'come up hither' as some kind of allegory for the rapture shows how weak the theory is.
There is nothing allegorical about it and it is not anyone's personal interpretation. Tis' what the Bible clearly states. You cannot wish it away. John experienced the future pre-trib Rapture, as well as many other things. Please don't tell us that you believe the Second Coming happened 1900 years ago also.

and the transformation happens 'at the last trump'.
Yes it does. It signals the end of the Church age. It has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet Judgement (which happens to occur in the middle of the Tribulation).

Why not just let go of pre-trib?
:eek:
Darth Vader?!
 

MessengerofTruth

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Dec 21, 2022
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The one “taken out of the way” to prepare for the rising up of the Antichrist is not specifically identified in II Thessalonians 2:7.
I have understood it to be the Archangel Michael. Rev. 12:7-13; Dan. 10:21
 

TheDivineWatermark

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In fact the Church MUST BE raptured BEFORE the Tribulation can ever begin. And we will be.

The Scripture ALWAYS states that we, the Bride, the Body, receive and are in a state of rest, comfort, relief......during the time of the Tribulation.

All of this concatenates perfectly with the ultimate book of end-time things, Revelation. Where we, the Church, are ILLUSTRATED to be IN HEAVEN in Chapters 4 & 5. Before the man of sin is ever "revealed" in chapter 6.
Agreed. Paul makes very clear the SEQUENCE (Rapture before the start of "the DOTL" time-period of Judgments unfolding upon the earth), and he REPEATS this sequence THREE TIMES in 2Th2 (and which sequence AGREES with the SAME sequence shown in his first letter to them--chpt4 & 5... Not to mention all other related passages, such as Rev4&5 with the "24 elders" saying "hast redeemed US... out-of EVERY..." and corresponding w/ what chpt 1:5-6 had said)




BTW.....the "snatch" the "harpazo" by the Spirit (to heaven) is certainly biblical. Nothing unusual there.....

Act 8:39
And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away G726 Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
2Co 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up G726 to the third heaven.

2Co 12:4
How that he was caught up G726 into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up G726 together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Rev 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up G726 unto God, and to his throne.
Hey cv5, in view of your list of passages here ^ , I thought you might enjoy this quote by J.G. Bellett:


"Ezekiel had been caught away to Jerusalem and other places, as a prophet to Israel, that he might in the visions of God, understand and declare the Divine counsels. And so John was taken away to various scenes, as prophet to the Church, that he might testify in like manner of the Divine purposes. But these were only raptures in the Spirit. Philip had been actually, and not merely in Spirit, caught away to Azotus from the desert of Gaza, that as an evangelist, he might pursue his ministry among the habitation of men. So Paul is actually caught up into paradise, but this was not as a prophet, nor as an evangelist, nor as an Apostle, but “as a man in Christ,” that all “in Christ” might know their portion in that blessing and honor which awaits them after this life, and which was so great that our Apostle, returning to the flesh and to the earth, was in danger of being exalted by it above measure."

-- John G Bellett, Bible Truth Publishers

(bold mine)




["IN Christ" is a NT designation (re: all those having come to faith "in this present age [singular]"... Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]; note: Eph1:10 isn't referring to this present age where it states, "that in the dispensation of the fulness of times...," as many suppose it to mean)]
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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Dec 20, 2017
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I am a Second Coming Resurrection believer myself. The Tribulation Saints are resurrected after the Tribulation, but that is not the Rapture. That is not for the Church. The Church is returning form Heaven with Christ at that time.
"Tribulation saints" are part of the church.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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Dec 20, 2017
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The elders that John spoke with in heaven at least 1900 years BEFORE the rapture? Is that what you mean?

If you have specific verses in these passages that you think somehow support pre-trib quote them and explain how. A vague challenge to pretribbers to explain the identity or orogin of the 24 elders is not evidence that Jesus comes back an extra time that is not laid out in scripture.
Did you quote the wrong post by any chance?
I stated that I don't believe the 24 elders are evidence for a pretrib rapture.
I absolutely do not believe there are 2 returns of Christ.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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Dec 20, 2017
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There is nothing allegorical about it and it is not anyone's personal interpretation. Tis' what the Bible clearly states. You cannot wish it away. John experienced the future pre-trib Rapture, as well as many other things.
You take a liberty to change John's vision to an experience of bodily "rapture" when he clearly stated he was shown a vision
in the spirit.

John alone was shown a vision. He witnessed the throne room of heaven.
He didn't experience a bodily resurection or rapture. He wasn't given a prophecy concerning a rapture.
The focus was on Jesus.


Rev 4
And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”
2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.

Here's how your King James Version puts it.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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Let's not neglect to notice a few things in the text:

--John was being "SHOWN" things which must take place "after these things" (that is, after "the things WHICH ARE" in chpts 2-3) and which are said (per 1:1) are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (these are NOT things which would unfold over the course of some near 2000 years (like saints who die being "at home with the Lord" as they do); but what will immediately precede and LEAD UP TO His Second Coming to the earth, Rev19; This "future" aspect of the Book of Rev IS the "7 year period" [2520 days], aka Daniel's 70th "Week");

--a "searching judgment" has already taken place as indicated by the word "WAS FOUND" (in 5:4), which same word is used re: Paul when he's brought before their human / earthly "bema" in the latter chpts of Acts; This is why we see the "24 elders" having been awarded "stephanon/crowns" which Paul said he (and others) would be awarded "IN THAT DAY" (not the day of his and their deaths!), referring to the "BEMA" rewards time;

--when Jesus is shown "STANDING" and opens the FIRST SEAL, this is the equivalent of the START of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse (the SEALS = "the beginning of birth PANGS"); the FIRST ONE (per Jesus' words) found in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 "G5100 tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' [ 'a certain one' bringing deception]" aka the "whose COMING" of the "man of sin" in 2Th2:9a,8a... at the START of those "7 yrs" (not at the MID-POINT, when he does the "who SITTETH" thing, 2Th2:4--that's LATER); In 1Th5:2-3 Paul acknowledges the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" the manner of "the DOTL's" ARRIVAL... and he goes on to say that it is "EXACTLY LIKE [hosper[/I]]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR--same word Jesus used!!!!]" that COMES UPON a woman in labor (it's not "ONE and DONE" when it comes to "birth PANGS"... many more follow on from this INITIAL one... this is just its ARRIVAL--the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" earthly-located TIME PERIOD of Judgments unfolding upon the earth--which takes place WELL-BEFORE Jesus' Second Coming to the earth in Rev19)]
 

oyster67

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May 24, 2014
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You take a liberty to change John's vision to an experience of bodily "rapture" when he clearly stated he was shown a vision
in the spirit.

John alone was shown a vision. He witnessed the throne room of heaven.
He didn't experience a bodily resurection or rapture. He wasn't given a prophecy concerning a rapture.
The focus was on Jesus.


Rev 4
And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”
2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.

Here's how your King James Version puts it.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
These things John saw and experienced are real future events. That includes the pre-tribulation rapture of Revelation 4:1. As you know, the spiritual realm is just as real as the physical one. John was in the spirit.
 

oyster67

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May 24, 2014
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"Tribulation saints" are part of the church.
My current understanding is that they are not. They will not be the Bride of Christ. Their lamps were not trimmed and burning when the Groom arrived.
 

presidente

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May 29, 2013
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Amen. I am so glad that you see this. Our time of trials and testing and purification is now, not in the time of God's Wrath and Jacobs Trouble.
Whether we sleep first or live until the second coming we must stand firm in our faith.
 

presidente

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May 29, 2013
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These things John saw and experienced are real future events. That includes the pre-tribulation rapture of Revelation 4:1. As you know, the spiritual realm is just as real as the physical one. John was in the spirit.
Would you say John being told to 'Come up hither' is the strongest Biblical evidence for placing the timing of the rapture of the church before the tribulation?
 

presidente

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You advocate a works based salvation, yes?
My post is about _faith_. Your is about works.
Hebrews is doctrinally set for the….wait for it….Hebrews in the last days during the time of Jacob’s trouble.
The immediate audience for Hebrews is a,,,, wait for it.... first century audience.


The gospel is the same for Jew and Gentiles. Paul wrote if any man preaches any other gospel let him be acursed.


The Corinthians were not all Jews.
 

presidente

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May 29, 2013
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On the contrary, there is absolutely ZERO evidence of a "rapture" a "translation" of still living mortal bodies during the tribulation.
There is absolutely no evidence for the rapture of mortal bodies, but there is evidence for it around the time described in Revelation 20 because I Thessalonians tells us that the dead in Christ shall rise first and we which are alive and remain will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air, and Revelation 20 describes the first resurrection.
 

presidente

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May 29, 2013
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Sooo, the Lord catches us up in the clouds only to bring us immediately back down to earth? 🤦‍♂️
That makes sense Biblically. Where do you get two returns of Christ and the church waiting 7 years to return from. I cannot find scripture for that
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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My post is about _faith_. Your is about works.


The immediate audience for Hebrews is a,,,, wait for it.... first century audience.


The gospel is the same for Jew and Gentiles. Paul wrote if any man preaches any other gospel let him be acursed.


The Corinthians were not all Jews.
Nobody said anything about the gospel. I was merely stating the audience.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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That makes sense Biblically. Where do you get two returns of Christ and the church waiting 7 years to return from. I cannot find scripture for that
Christ doesn’t return to earth at the gathering of his body, but catches his body up in the clouds. After, the JSOC occurs in heaven before the marriage of the Lamb.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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That makes sense Biblically. Where do you get two returns of Christ and the church waiting 7 years to return from. I cannot find scripture for that
Try putting down that Sports Illustrated you must be using and pick up a Bible.