Conditional Salvation

[Cassian]

Actually the correct wording is Eph 2:8,9 "For BY grace you have BEEN saved THROUGH faith, and that not of yourselves; IT IS the gift of God, NOT of works, lest anyone should boast".

But you overlook the first part of that chapter when it is actually referring to the salvation that Christ granted to all men. All men were saved by grace (from death and sin) or to put it another way, from the fall, or even from the condemnation of death through Adam. That section ends in vs 5.

Since Paul is speaking to believers, who are obviously a subgroup of all men, they also have been saved by grace, but also through faith. Everyone who believes will take possession of eternal life. But that possession can be lost when one loses faith or rejects Christ at any time during his life. There is no guarantee that simply because one believed that he will inherit eternal life. I Pet 1:3-5 makes that very clear as well.

There is also nothing in scripture that supports being saved by faith or through faith alone. Faith needs content. Without content it is dead and meaningless.

 

[mailmandan]

1 Jn 1:7 has the conditional word "IF".... one choose to walk in the light and one can choose not to walk in the light.

The implication of John's words for the Christian is the Christian must conditionally continue to walk in the light for all his sins to be conditionally cleansed away.

Go back and read post #371 again. IF confirms these two positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other. There is no third camp here of believers walking in darkness or unbelievers walking in the light.

 

[elf3]

But you overlook the first part of that chapter when it is actually referring to the salvation that Christ granted to all men. All men were saved by grace (from death and sin) or to put it another way, from the fall, or even from the condemnation of death through Adam. That section ends in vs 5.

Since Paul is speaking to believers, who are obviously a subgroup of all men, they also have been saved by grace, but also through faith. Everyone who believes will take possession of eternal life. But that possession can be lost when one loses faith or rejects Christ at any time during his life. There is no guarantee that simply because one believed that he will inherit eternal life. I Pet 1:3-5 makes that very clear as well.

There is also nothing in scripture that supports being saved by faith or through faith alone. Faith needs content. Without content it is dead and meaningless.

Start with Romans 4 and Romans 10 on the faith thing.

 

[posthuman]

There is also nothing in scripture that supports being saved by faith or through faith alone. Faith needs content. Without content it is dead and meaningless.

you're only saying that it takes actual living faith, not dead meaningless faith.

the scripture is very clear; salvation is not by works.

 

[Cassian]

you're only saying that it takes actual living faith, not dead meaningless faith.

the scripture is very clear; salvation is not by works.

Never made the claim. Salvation is through faith of which its content is works. No works is a dead meaningless faith. It is impossible to separate the two elements. You will stand in judgment to give account of your works, not your faith. The reason is very simple to understand.

 

[Cassian]

Start with Romans 4 and Romans 10 on the faith thing.

Where in Rom 4 or 10 or anywhere else does it say that we are saved ONLY by faith or faith only.

 

[ChristIsGod]

Never made the claim. Salvation is through faith of which its content is works. No works is a dead meaningless faith. It is impossible to separate the two elements.You will stand in judgment to give account of your works, not your faith. The reason is very simple to understand.

Brother, could it be possible that we'll be judged equally according to faith & works?
I understand that as being the purpose of us having or needing "the faith OF Jesus". To walk as He walked in obedience to the Father and by His Faith in His God's leading while on earth. Why else would He go off alone to pray so often?
The verse that we are to walk, even as He walked in the world, seems to be saying it all. It seems to take a lot of faith on our part, to give up our autonomy and depend on His leading us, as the man Jesus was led - or Paul - which I see as "the cost" that we are to count first. Taking up our cross and following Him does take the faith Of Jesus. All of the "works of obedience" are from us 'hearing His Voice' through His Word and by His Spirit and obeying as Jesus did while in the flesh. Letting this mind be in us which was also in Christ Jesus.
The sheep in Jn 10 have great faith in their Shepherd to follow Him 'wherever' He leads.
He knows His sheep by whether they know His voice and follow. It does seem to take the faith of Jesus to follow like a dumb, mindless sheep, which I suppose is the 'substance' of our faith -- the Heb 11 faith.

 

[elf3]

Where in Rom 4 or 10 or anywhere else does it say that we are saved ONLY by faith or faith only.

How about the word "not"? Would you accept the word "not"? Or do you only want the word "only"? Because I believe Eph 2:9 uses the words "not of works". But I am almost positive you won't accept that either.

 

[ChristIsGod]

How about the word "not"? Would you accept the word "not"? Or do you only want the word "only"? Because I believe Eph 2:9 uses the words "not of works". But I am almost positive you won't accept that either.

Brother elf - what is hard to read on these threads is that some are reading past each other and banging the same drum over and over. Not reading each other's posts and sticking to just one or two verses and not the Whole of the New Testament. Phew!

Brother Caspian has stated several times now that our initial salvation is not by works but by grace through faith - and yet this conversation is still going on, falsely accusing those that believe "works of obedience" are required through-out the N.T..

The problem is that when you only pull one verse out of an entire book and don't read or know the whole of the Book - you're going to argue forever, I'm afraid.

I was just off-line reading Hebrews 11-13 as I felt that I was supposed to for some reason.
So refreshing to read whole chapters at a time. You may enjoy reading those 3 chpts as well, Brother.

There are no divisions of verses & chpts by numbers in the original - so the whole of every book in the N.T. is just one running message --- not to be torn apart and away from the whole of it's content/context.
How about just a few verses at the most?

Works of obedience ...

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth His word, in Him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.

 

[Butch5]

How about the word "not"? Would you accept the word "not"? Or do you only want the word "only"? Because I believe Eph 2:9 uses the words "not of works". But I am almost positive you won't accept that either.

Here's the rest of it.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. {ordained: or, prepared}
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: {thereby: or, in himself}
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
(Eph 2:8-18 KJV)

 

[Bride]

My works are obedience to the Faith. Problem solved. Ta dAaAaA!!!

(Rom 16:26)
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

 

[Cassian]

How about the word "not"? Would you accept the word "not"? Or do you only want the word "only"? Because I believe Eph 2:9 uses the words "not of works". But I am almost positive you won't accept that either.

It is exactly what I have been stating all along. I repeated it in the last post. You are the one that wants to separate them into individual concepts.
Very clearly, I stated that a believer is saved through faith, not works. We cannot be saved by faith alone, nor works alone. It is through faith but the content of that faith is works. "Only" does not exist in the salvation lexicon.

 

[Cassian]

Brother, could it be possible that we'll be judged equally according to faith & works?
I understand that as being the purpose of us having or needing "the faith OF Jesus". To walk as He walked in obedience to the Father and by His Faith in His God's leading while on earth. Why else would He go off alone to pray so often?
The verse that we are to walk, even as He walked in the world, seems to be saying it all. It seems to take a lot of faith on our part, to give up our autonomy and depend on His leading us, as the man Jesus was led - or Paul - which I see as "the cost" that we are to count first. Taking up our cross and following Him does take the faith Of Jesus. All of the "works of obedience" are from us 'hearing His Voice' through His Word and by His Spirit and obeying as Jesus did while in the flesh. Letting this mind be in us which was also in Christ Jesus.
The sheep in Jn 10 have great faith in their Shepherd to follow Him 'wherever' He leads.
He knows His sheep by whether they know His voice and follow. It does seem to take the faith of Jesus to follow like a dumb, mindless sheep, which I suppose is the 'substance' of our faith -- the Heb 11 faith.

Fully agree.

 

[ChristIsGod]

To post #470 -

There's nothing in those verses that we disagree on.

We are not saved by keeping the O.T. law - we already know that it was meant as a school master to lead us to Christ and salvation by His grace through faith.

The word "commandments" is found several times in the N.T. but some people get upset when they see that word.

Do these verses below scare you? Why is it? He is not talking about "the O.T. law" ... Why does that word shake a N.T. believer"?

Mat_5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat_19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat_22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Mar_10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
Mar_12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Luk_1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Luk_18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
Joh_14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh_14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh_15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Act_1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
1Co_7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
1Th_4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
1Jn_2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn_2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn_3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn_3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1Jn_5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn_5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2Jn_1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
Rev_12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[ChristIsGod]

But you overlook the first part of that chapter when it is actually referring to the salvation that Christ granted to all men. All men were saved by grace (from death and sin) or to put it another way, from the fall, or even from the condemnation of death through Adam. That section ends in vs 5.

Since Paul is speaking to believers, who are obviously a subgroup of all men, they also have been saved by grace, but also through faith. Everyone who believes will take possession of eternal life. But that possession can be lost when one loses faith or rejects Christ at any time during his life. There is no guarantee that simply because one believed that he will inherit eternal life. I Pet 1:3-5 makes that very clear as well.

There is also nothing in scripture that supports being saved by faith or through faith alone. Faith needs content. Without content it is dead and meaningless.

Agree as well.

The 'whole' of the New Testament is that "content", Amen - not just a verse pulled from here & there.
That's sloppy-agape for The Word of God made flesh & written, both.

The N.T. is only a half inch sized book. Why is it so hard to know all of it? I've seen/heard Christians read stacks of novels, 5 times the size of the N.T. and then be able to tell their friends every last detail of what's in that fiction book.
It's one of the Books that are opened when all are judged and there's nothing wrong with the fear of God neither - according to what I read in those chpts in Hebrews tonight and elsewhere.
Pray one for another all.

 

[elf3]

Brother, could it be possible that we'll be judged equally according to faith & works?
I understand that as being the purpose of us having or needing "the faith OF Jesus". To walk as He walked in obedience to the Father and by His Faith in His God's leading while on earth. Why else would He go off alone to pray so often?
The verse that we are to walk, even as He walked in the world, seems to be saying it all. It seems to take a lot of faith on our part, to give up our autonomy and depend on His leading us, as the man Jesus was led - or Paul - which I see as "the cost" that we are to count first. Taking up our cross and following Him does take the faith Of Jesus. All of the "works of obedience" are from us 'hearing His Voice' through His Word and by His Spirit and obeying as Jesus did while in the flesh. Letting this mind be in us which was also in Christ Jesus.
The sheep in Jn 10 have great faith in their Shepherd to follow Him 'wherever' He leads.
He knows His sheep by whether they know His voice and follow. It does seem to take the faith of Jesus to follow like a dumb, mindless sheep, which I suppose is the 'substance' of our faith -- the Heb 11 faith.

Well apparently we will receive some type of reward according to a couple passages of scripture according to the works we have done. Don't ask me to quote them or even tell you where they are because my memory on reading isn't that great. Show me once how to get somewhere or how to do something I'll be dead on every time.

 

[ChristIsGod]

Well apparently we will receive some type of reward according to a couple passages of scripture according to the works we have done. Don't ask me to quote them or even tell you where they are because my memory on reading isn't that great. Show me once how to get somewhere or how to do something I'll be dead on every time.

I understand, Brother elf. What version have you basically stayed with? If you can just remember one word of the verses you're thinking of... you can do a Search on a program like e-Sword | Home and it'll come to you.
Yes, there are many verses that mention 'reward' - 35 verses in the KJV - here's two - Matt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

But we see in just Matthew 25 alone that it's conditional. That's just one chpt. We'll all be judged according to our works, if you look at all of the verses and parables and the whole of the N.T..

Ya know what's funny - I posted that last post and shut down the wifi, laptop and was calling it a day when I felt to come back on to just say one thing and please excuse the 'caps' but I have to do this ....

Scripture NEVER contradicts Scripture and I do believe that we all believe that the N.T. is Scripture - all of it.

Thanks! Good night, Saints!

 

[Atwood]

Conditional Deceit

Conditional Deceit requires nothing more than the truth being vital to obtaining a new birth & eternal life. For anything about that truth, is sure to get the ol "Yea, hath God said" routine & the "You shall not surely die" routine.

But here is God's truth:

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for
He shall save His people from their sins.

John 3
even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believes may in him have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. He who believes on him is not judged: he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed on the name of the only Son of God. . . .

He who believes on the Son has eternal life;

John 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say to you, He who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6
Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life: he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes on me shall never thirst. But I said to you, that you have seen me, and yet believe not. All that which the Father gives me shall come to me; and him who comes to me I will in no wise cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that of all that which he has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who who beholds the Son and believes on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Verily, verily, I say to you, He who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down out of heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever.

John 10
But you do not believe because you are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and
I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish, . . . .

 

[oyster67]

Well apparently we will receive some type of reward according to a couple passages of scripture according to the works we have done. Don't ask me to quote them or even tell you where they are because my memory on reading isn't that great. Show me once how to get somewhere or how to do something I'll be dead on every time.

Yes, the judgment of works is often referred to as the Bema Seat. It only determines our rewards, not our salvation. It is 2 Cor 5:10.

 

[oyster67]

Faith is usually considered a requirement for salvation. Works is generally considered a fruit (result that comes after salvation).