Conditional Salvation
- Thread starter SeaBass
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E
Oh I'm sorry you misunderstood what said...I didn't ask if you knew where I stood. I asked you to tell me by my posts where I stand. Tell me what you think my views are on grace, faith, works, justification and sanctification. Because if you say that I am far from what Scripture tells us then you obviously have no idea where my position is. It is all written out for everyone to read.
Cassian is remarkable, since he goes on & on saying things without quoting the Bible proving his theories. He has this absurd idea that everyone is saved, which sounds like the heresy of universalism. If everyone were saved, there would be no doctrine of the Lake of Fire. But what he says is opposed to scripture. Apparently he feels he can just say things because he is of the superior Eastern Orthodox denomination, and whatever they say goes. Even the Bible means nothing except what they say it means, as I understand him.
So let's just observe that over & over the only thing man needs to do is to belief/have faith/ trust the Savior, but this is required for salvation.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins (not everyone). Many are called, but few chosen.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
4 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; 15 that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER,
exluded by whosover]
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER,
exluded by whosover]
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
17 For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He that believeth on him is not judged:
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
he that believeth not hath been judged already,
[they are not & never have been saved from sin]
because he hath not believed on the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.
No one can be saved by works because the unsaved man has only evil works.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
So let's just observe that over & over the only thing man needs to do is to belief/have faith/ trust the Savior, but this is required for salvation.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins (not everyone). Many are called, but few chosen.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
4 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; 15 that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER,
exluded by whosover]
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER,
exluded by whosover]
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
17 For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He that believeth on him is not judged:
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
he that believeth not hath been judged already,
[they are not & never have been saved from sin]
because he hath not believed on the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.
No one can be saved by works because the unsaved man has only evil works.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Last edited:
And who is so famous for ignoring scripture & just posting as is Cassian? Look at your post, not one verse! Is it not a fact that you don't follow scripture anyway, but what your denomination pontificates? Don't you claim that your denomination is the pillar & ground of truth & superior to the Bible, which only means what you say it means? And thus you make human tradition the authority instead of God's word. Does that no explain why you pontificate instead of proving from the Bible?
Here is how to be saved; & over & over it is repeated without any works or water, & without any Eastern orthodox denomination:
Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Rom 3:21-30
But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith,
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Rom 4:1ff
:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
4 Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
6 Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.
9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them;
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace;
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Rom 10:4ff
For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down
or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Gal 3:
This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Gal 3:22ff
But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Gal 5:5-6
For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Here is how to be saved; & over & over it is repeated without any works or water, & without any Eastern orthodox denomination:
Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Rom 3:21-30
But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith,
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Rom 4:1ff
:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
4 Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
6 Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.
9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them;
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace;
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Rom 10:4ff
For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down
or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Gal 3:
This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Gal 3:22ff
But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Gal 5:5-6
For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Last edited:
I knew you had misreferenced, it was my way of bringing your off reference to your attention. So then you proceed with an insult, ''So little you know of Scripture ...''. Then you reveal you have no experiential knowledge of being born again (a new nature).
Ephesians 2:3-6 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
So I have nothing more to say to you except the Gospel which you seem to need.
Ephesians 2:3-6 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
So I have nothing more to say to you except the Gospel which you seem to need.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: (Eph 2:4-6)
Last edited:
E
Context of what? How do you conclude being born again affected the physical nature? I do disagree that Eph 2:4-6 applies to non believers...
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
(Eph 2:4-6)
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: (Eph 2:4-6)
Oh and I guess you didn't know being "born again" does affect our physical nature..I got a face lift what did you get? Lol
Let's separate the comments so you can follow better what you believe. Saved by grace and justification by Christ applies to all men. Christ reconciled the world, saved the world from death, sin and Satan. He did not save you as an individual from the Cross.
If you want to be justified as an individual, it is by faith in Christ, the one that saved the world from death and sin. That is His great gift of salvation of love, mercy and grace for the world, the created order.
I don't know of any that actually do this if they understand what scripture is saying about each. As explained above, what Christ did is all grace, man has no affect or affect on the Works of Christ.
No one that I know adds works to justification either. We are justified by faith. Works is always in the negative respective to justification.
the last one is taught in the Bible. There is nothing in our personal salvation through faith that is done unilaterally by God. God will not do anything unless man first cooperates. He may be doing the sanctifying, but you will not be sanctified unless you are being faithful to the commandments of the covenant.
Grace is always from God. Why is this even mentioned. One would think there is another source of grace.
If you are speaking of Christ's reconciliation (justification) of the world it is all Christ, nothing of man. However, if it is our personal salvation, the attaining of eternal life, it is only by the cooperation of our faith.
the Holy Spirit does not work alone. He works with and through you. Nothing gets done unless a person remains faithful. He may do the sanctifying, but only at your behest. If it was God's choice He would save everyone to eternal life and would sanctify everyone.
this summary is what really puts your view outside of scripture. it is the opposite lure of Satan that he used against Adam.
For Adam the lure was that Adam could attain eternal life, become like God, all on his own. Your view is that God will save you all on your own, man is not a participant in his salvation. Yet, God created man to be in a mutual, synergistic relationship for an eternity.
Man is indeed in control of his eternal destiny. The only group of people who believe otherwise are the Calvinists who hold to God predestinating some to salvation while damning all the rest.
It is impossible for man to add to Christ's work. That some people even assume or mention that it is a possibility don't understand what Christ accomplished.
Yet scripture even states that it is the work of God that one believe. It assumes you will need to contribute faith to the work of God. God does not make any man believe, surely not predestined to believe.
Hope that helps you in understanding what scripture means and how your view stacks up to scripture.
If you want to be justified as an individual, it is by faith in Christ, the one that saved the world from death and sin. That is His great gift of salvation of love, mercy and grace for the world, the created order.
I don't know of any that actually do this if they understand what scripture is saying about each. As explained above, what Christ did is all grace, man has no affect or affect on the Works of Christ.
No one that I know adds works to justification either. We are justified by faith. Works is always in the negative respective to justification.
the last one is taught in the Bible. There is nothing in our personal salvation through faith that is done unilaterally by God. God will not do anything unless man first cooperates. He may be doing the sanctifying, but you will not be sanctified unless you are being faithful to the commandments of the covenant.
Grace is always from God. Why is this even mentioned. One would think there is another source of grace.
If you are speaking of Christ's reconciliation (justification) of the world it is all Christ, nothing of man. However, if it is our personal salvation, the attaining of eternal life, it is only by the cooperation of our faith.
the Holy Spirit does not work alone. He works with and through you. Nothing gets done unless a person remains faithful. He may do the sanctifying, but only at your behest. If it was God's choice He would save everyone to eternal life and would sanctify everyone.
this summary is what really puts your view outside of scripture. it is the opposite lure of Satan that he used against Adam.
For Adam the lure was that Adam could attain eternal life, become like God, all on his own. Your view is that God will save you all on your own, man is not a participant in his salvation. Yet, God created man to be in a mutual, synergistic relationship for an eternity.
Man is indeed in control of his eternal destiny. The only group of people who believe otherwise are the Calvinists who hold to God predestinating some to salvation while damning all the rest.
It is impossible for man to add to Christ's work. That some people even assume or mention that it is a possibility don't understand what Christ accomplished.
Yet scripture even states that it is the work of God that one believe. It assumes you will need to contribute faith to the work of God. God does not make any man believe, surely not predestined to believe.
Hope that helps you in understanding what scripture means and how your view stacks up to scripture.
E
You see here is the problem. I don't believe a single word you said. Show me Biblical proof.
I mean you say Christ didn't die for me as an individual?
I have to cooperate with God first? God doesn't come after? But then you say it is "the work of God that someone believe". Does God work first or do I cooperate first? That's confusing.
Now you say "God created man to be in a mutual synergistic relationship for an eternity". But then you say "man is indeed of control of his eternal destiny". Ok again confusing...is it mutual or are we in control?
You say we need to contribute our faith but doesn't Eph 2:8 say our faith comes from God?
Can you see you own contradictions in what you just wrote.
I mean you say Christ didn't die for me as an individual?
I have to cooperate with God first? God doesn't come after? But then you say it is "the work of God that someone believe". Does God work first or do I cooperate first? That's confusing.
Now you say "God created man to be in a mutual synergistic relationship for an eternity". But then you say "man is indeed of control of his eternal destiny". Ok again confusing...is it mutual or are we in control?
You say we need to contribute our faith but doesn't Eph 2:8 say our faith comes from God?
Can you see you own contradictions in what you just wrote.
It seems to me as follows:
Don't expect Cassian to prove anything from the Bible. His denomination is infallible, the pillar & ground of truth. In fact, he may tell you how the Bible is only canonical because his denomination endorses it. And only his denomination can interpret it. So Cassian can pontificate ex cathedra without bothering to quote scripture, which we aren't qualified to understand anyway. We need it to be filtered through his flip-top box.
But you can quote Bible back at him for the benefit of the audience.
Don't expect Cassian to prove anything from the Bible. His denomination is infallible, the pillar & ground of truth. In fact, he may tell you how the Bible is only canonical because his denomination endorses it. And only his denomination can interpret it. So Cassian can pontificate ex cathedra without bothering to quote scripture, which we aren't qualified to understand anyway. We need it to be filtered through his flip-top box.
But you can quote Bible back at him for the benefit of the audience.
elf3,
The following all deal with Christ's work of reversing the fall of man. They are all Incarnational. Gen 3:19, Rom 11:32, Rom 5:6-10, 12, 18, I Cor 15:12-22, I Cor 15:52-54, Col 1:20, John 6:39, Rom 3:23-25, II Cor 5:18-19, Heb 2:9, Heb 2:14-17, I Tim 4:10 II Tim 1:10, I John 2:2, John 4:42, I John 4:14.
They all relate to Christ's work through His Incarnation and resurrection. They have nothing to do directly with the salvation of a believer, and what a believer does cannot effect or affect what Christ accomplished for the world/mankind.
Acts 13:39, Rom 3:20, Rom 3:28, Rom 5:1, Gal 2:16, I Cor 6:11, Gal 5:4, Phil 3:9
Rev 14:12, 17, Ii John 6, I John 5:2, I John 3:22, 24, I Cor 7:10,
Justification/reconciliation by Christ see the first quoted section above.
For our persona salvation through faith, see the immediate above texts as well as John 12:25, Mark 8:34, I Tim 6:111-12, I John 3:24-25, John 3:15,16.
The texts above apply here as well. Man is called to be a follower, a doer not an inanimate object.
Phil 2:13-16, Heb 13:21, James 1:22-23, James 2:22, James 4:8.
The following all deal with Christ's work of reversing the fall of man. They are all Incarnational. Gen 3:19, Rom 11:32, Rom 5:6-10, 12, 18, I Cor 15:12-22, I Cor 15:52-54, Col 1:20, John 6:39, Rom 3:23-25, II Cor 5:18-19, Heb 2:9, Heb 2:14-17, I Tim 4:10 II Tim 1:10, I John 2:2, John 4:42, I John 4:14.
They all relate to Christ's work through His Incarnation and resurrection. They have nothing to do directly with the salvation of a believer, and what a believer does cannot effect or affect what Christ accomplished for the world/mankind.
Acts 13:39, Rom 3:20, Rom 3:28, Rom 5:1, Gal 2:16, I Cor 6:11, Gal 5:4, Phil 3:9
Rev 14:12, 17, Ii John 6, I John 5:2, I John 3:22, 24, I Cor 7:10,
Justification/reconciliation by Christ see the first quoted section above.
For our persona salvation through faith, see the immediate above texts as well as John 12:25, Mark 8:34, I Tim 6:111-12, I John 3:24-25, John 3:15,16.
The texts above apply here as well. Man is called to be a follower, a doer not an inanimate object.
Phil 2:13-16, Heb 13:21, James 1:22-23, James 2:22, James 4:8.
James 5:19,20 "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."
"Brethren" James is referring to Christians
" if any of you do err from the truth" Logically one cannot err from the truth if he was never in the truth. John says "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God." So any brother that errs from the truth, the gospel of Christ and abides not in the doctrine of Christ HATH NOT GOD.
"and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death..."
This erring one is here referred to as a 'sinner' who needs to be converted from spiritual death and converted back to the truth, the gospel of Christ where he can then abide in the doctrine of Christ again... "He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son"
"Brethren" James is referring to Christians
" if any of you do err from the truth" Logically one cannot err from the truth if he was never in the truth. John says "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God." So any brother that errs from the truth, the gospel of Christ and abides not in the doctrine of Christ HATH NOT GOD.
"and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death..."
This erring one is here referred to as a 'sinner' who needs to be converted from spiritual death and converted back to the truth, the gospel of Christ where he can then abide in the doctrine of Christ again... "He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son"
There are two sides to salvation:
1) man's faithfulness to God
2) God's faithfulness to man
Eternal securists will quote the verses that speak of God's faithfulness to man (and "claim" that God's faithfulness is due to eternal security) while ignoring the verses that speak of man having to be faithful to God. Of course those that are faithful to God, God in turn will be faithful to them. God's faithfulness to you depends on your faithfulness to Him...eternal security had nothing to do with it. No one is saved UNconditionally to begin with so no one can continue to be saved UNconditionally either.
Hebrews 6:1-6
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.