Contradiction or Harmony?

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TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
5,755
958
113
#22
Is this a contradiction? Or in context do we have harmony?

Matthew 5:17-18 ESV
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.


Ephesians 2:15-16 ESV
15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
Matthew is speaking of the prophecies related to the Messiah.
Paul speaks of 613 Laws in the Torah including the big Ten.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
18,278
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#25
Yes there was hostility, verse 15 explains this, Ephesians 2:15-16 ESV
15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
You seem to have misunderstood what is actually being said. So let's go back to the KJV, and then see what this is all about, :

EPHESIANS 2: CHRIST RECONCILED GOD TO SINNERS AND

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
18,278
9,301
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#26
So what we see here is this:
1. There was no hostility to the Law on any side. The Law is the standard by which we are judged.
2. There was enmity between Jew and Gentile as well as between God and sinners before the crucifixion of Christ.
3. Sin separates men from God and from each other. Hence the enmity.
4. The Law establishes all men as sinners, therefore all are enemies of God.
5. When Christ died on the cross and shed His blood, He paid the full penalty for all our sins.
6. Therefore there is peace with God for those who believe on Him.
7. Therefore there is no enmity between saved Jews and Gentiles, who are all within the one Body of Christ, and reconciled to God through Christ.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,022
3,958
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#27
So what we see here is this:
1. There was no hostility to the Law on any side. The Law is the standard by which we are judged.
2. There was enmity between Jew and Gentile as well as between God and sinners before the crucifixion of Christ.
3. Sin separates men from God and from each other. Hence the enmity.
4. The Law establishes all men as sinners, therefore all are enemies of God.
5. When Christ died on the cross and shed His blood, He paid the full penalty for all our sins.
6. Therefore there is peace with God for those who believe on Him.
7. Therefore there is no enmity between saved Jews and Gentiles, who are all within the one Body of Christ, and reconciled to God through Christ.
Do you consider the burden of keeping the law a hostility between human nature and what the laws require in perfection?
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,022
3,958
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#28
Matthew is speaking of the prophecies related to the Messiah.
Paul speaks of 613 Laws in the Torah including the big Ten.
Are prophecies also laws?

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets.

He came not to abolish the law or the Prophets, but to fulfill.

So Paul's abolish had to be speaking to the hostility between Jew, Gentile, and the inner human nature that could never keep the whole law.
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
2,785
1,285
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#29
Please John DB, it is a discussion amongst us believers in Christ so all of us may progress towards the truth. Please be gentle, these discussions are necessary.

Peace!

JF
This is the same subject debated at least once a week since I joined a year ago.

I was hoping for something that actually was studious and not rehashed hash.
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
2,785
1,285
113
#30
Now if we had a real discussion about true contradictions of scriptures and the paradoxes. Like:

was Jesus entering or leaving the town when he healed a blind man?

When the 12 got sent out were they supposed to carry a stick or not?

These sorts of paradoxes are much more fun to discuss and actually create knowledge instead of strife.
 

SomeDisciple

Well-known member
Jul 4, 2021
793
382
63
#31
Two different words for "abolish".

katargeó: to render inoperative, abolish
Original Word: καταργέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katargeó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-arg-eh'-o)
Definition: to render inoperative, abolish
Usage: (a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from.

kataluó: to destroy, overthrow
Original Word: καταλύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: kataluó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-al-oo'-o)
Definition: to destroy, overthrow
Usage: (lit: I loosen thoroughly), (a) trans: I break up, overthrow, destroy, both lit. and met., (b) I unyoke, unharness a carriage horse or pack animal; hence: I put up, lodge, find a lodging.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
7,400
5,831
113
#32
Is this a contradiction? Or in context do we have harmony?

Matthew 5:17-18 ESV
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.


Ephesians 2:15-16 ESV
15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
He abolished the penalty for those who would accept His Atonement, but the precepts still show us our need for a Savior who fulfilled the law...

Hebrews
9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
9:23 [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

If one rejects Jesus, then the law still condemns.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
2,882
1,778
113
#34
Is this a contradiction? Or in context do we have harmony?

Matthew 5:17-18 ESV
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.


Ephesians 2:15-16 ESV
15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
God required a substitute man to replace Adam. He could not find a suitable man, (Isaiah 59:16) so He resolved the situation Himself. Jesus is God in human form. However, He lived as a man, becoming the one in whom God was well pleased. Jesus did what Adam failed to do. Jesus is called the last Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45). Why the last? Because Jesus obeyed God so perfectly that there is no need for another.

The Law was intended for Israel. If they had obeyed God, they would now rule the whole world in righteousness. And all mankind would have come under the umbrella of the Law. They did not, of course, and they could not because they, like us, were sinners by nature. Lord Jesus did what both Adam and Israel failed to do.

Even if we outwardly obey the Law, it only goes so far. It does not change the heart. That's the difference between the old and the new covenants. The Law still has a place, but it is for unbelievers, not believers (1 Timothy 1:8). The Law proves that we cannot keep the Law.

Hebrews 8:13

By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
 

Jesusfollower

Active member
Oct 21, 2021
200
98
28
near Montreal, quebec
#35
This is the same subject debated at least once a week since I joined a year ago.

I was hoping for something that actually was studious and not rehashed hash.
John, perhaps for you, tings are clear on a subject, for others, less so. No one if forcing you to reply in this thread, if you have absolute knowlwdge of things, please do comment with references to prove your point.

Peace!!!
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
10,337
3,310
113
#36
Is this a contradiction? Or in context do we have harmony?

Matthew 5:17-18 ESV
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.


Ephesians 2:15-16 ESV
15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
they are in harmony.

Jesus speaking says nothing will be done away with until all is completed. Paul is saying Jesus did what the LAW COULD NOT DO.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
4,620
1,656
113
#37
God's inspired Word doesn't contradict.
Exactly, and so when it appears that it does, it becomes our responsibility to understand why. And when we ponder these things, the Mysterious Plan of God will begin to unfold itself. More clearly, the Gospel will become more clear. That said, the vast majority, here, refuse to attempt to harmonize Scripture that seems to oppose itself. Very, very few are willing to acknowledge much of what the Bible has to say and it is nothing short of incredible (to me).
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
10,965
7,150
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#38
Do you consider the burden of keeping the law a hostility between human nature and what the laws require in perfection?
A new heart in a dead body.
This is why so many Christians are confused, frustrated, and constantly asking themselves “why am I still sinning after conversion!?”

We need to pick up our cross DAILY, to remind our flesh that it has been crucified with Christ. The desires of our dead body don’t just go away after we are born again.

Many of us struggle with this truth. Studying “walking in the Spirit” is the best thing we can do, DAILY, to become effective disciples of Jesus.

Galatians 5:16–18

ESV
Keep in Step with the Spirit
16 But I say, vwalk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify wthe desires of the flesh. 17 For xthe desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, yto keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are zled by the Spirit, ayou are not under the law.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,025
2,252
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#39
This is the same subject debated at least once a week since I joined a year ago.

I was hoping for something that actually was studious and not rehashed hash.
It seems to me this question, with all the discussion has never found the answer at all.

I think the answer is very simple, straight forward. Christ did not change anything his of his Father, not even the law although Christ made the law new.

Scripture is truth, we can rely on all law of the old testament as truth. As an example. under the law as given to Moses we are not to murder, lie, or steal. It was written in stone, it was a command to be obeyed by the letter of the law. Stone is long lasting and true, but it has no heart and no love. You could obey the law without love and disobey the spiritual law Christ brought to us.

Christ had these laws written in our hearts, the law didn't change but the way it was presented did, to change our response to the law.

The 5th chapter of Matthew explains this. After the beatitudes, it explains that Christ did not change the law, Christ fulfilled it. The rest of the chapter explains the difference in the law as Christ fulfilled it and gave us the spirit of the law. it tells of murder, adultery, divorce, giving oaths, and an eye for an eye as was told in the old testament, then as they are as Christ tells of these laws.
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
2,785
1,285
113
#40
It seems to me this question, with all the discussion has never found the answer at all.

I think the answer is very simple, straight forward. Christ did not change anything his of his Father, not even the law although Christ made the law new.

Scripture is truth, we can rely on all law of the old testament as truth. As an example. under the law as given to Moses we are not to murder, lie, or steal. It was written in stone, it was a command to be obeyed by the letter of the law. Stone is long lasting and true, but it has no heart and no love. You could obey the law without love and disobey the spiritual law Christ brought to us.

Christ had these laws written in our hearts, the law didn't change but the way it was presented did, to change our response to the law.

The 5th chapter of Matthew explains this. After the beatitudes, it explains that Christ did not change the law, Christ fulfilled it. The rest of the chapter explains the difference in the law as Christ fulfilled it and gave us the spirit of the law. it tells of murder, adultery, divorce, giving oaths, and an eye for an eye as was told in the old testament, then as they are as Christ tells of these laws.
For someone who says that an answer hasn't been discovered, you certainly explain the answer very well....very well indeed.

The most basic truth is that we cannot keep the Law. If you Break one you have broken them all...and you need someone to save you from those consequences. A Savior perhaps.
I recommend Jesus.