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D
I find it most disturbing that the big sins being brought up are smoking and watching porn.
There is purpose in judging the bros. But it is NOT to make them aesthetically pleasing for people watching God's people. It's not show! To act Christianese. To put on a mask where everyone is cookie-cutter shaped.
Does the sin cause harm to the church? Not those sins, that's for sure. The only difference between having it out with the porn-watched compared to anyone else, is because either the porn-watcher got caught, or was stupid enough to reveal that sin in front of the bros. Stupid, because about half the people "correcting" him/her also do it, but haven't been caught.
What does harm the church? For one thing, thinking the worst sins in the world are smoking or watching porn. If that's as shallow as the correction goes, it's time to leave that church. Because while that is happening what is causing it is all the members who think it's more important to call people on that then call them on the haughtiness that brought them to think that is the worst that can happen!
Haughtiness can destroy a church, Gossip can destroy a church. Backbiting. All things that can cause big problems in a church.
And then there is the other big stuff -- bad teachings. (Like smoking and porn-watching are the biggest demons the church faces.) WoF, the gay agenda, orgies, keeping a blind eye to cheating and abuse within the church -- any reason people will go to church other than to spend time with the Lord is the serious stuff. The stuff that needs an arm-in-arm approach with the real bros.
Look at the list of what was going on in Corinth. THAT's the bad stuff.
And then look at the list in Romans of which sins cause that. I can guarantee it wasn't smoking or porn-watching that caused those problems. But, I'm sure if they had easy access to porn or tobacco had been a middle-eastern crop, that same church would have been worrying about that stuff for appearance sake.
I think this needs to go much deeper than it has.
There is purpose in judging the bros. But it is NOT to make them aesthetically pleasing for people watching God's people. It's not show! To act Christianese. To put on a mask where everyone is cookie-cutter shaped.
Does the sin cause harm to the church? Not those sins, that's for sure. The only difference between having it out with the porn-watched compared to anyone else, is because either the porn-watcher got caught, or was stupid enough to reveal that sin in front of the bros. Stupid, because about half the people "correcting" him/her also do it, but haven't been caught.
What does harm the church? For one thing, thinking the worst sins in the world are smoking or watching porn. If that's as shallow as the correction goes, it's time to leave that church. Because while that is happening what is causing it is all the members who think it's more important to call people on that then call them on the haughtiness that brought them to think that is the worst that can happen!
Haughtiness can destroy a church, Gossip can destroy a church. Backbiting. All things that can cause big problems in a church.
And then there is the other big stuff -- bad teachings. (Like smoking and porn-watching are the biggest demons the church faces.) WoF, the gay agenda, orgies, keeping a blind eye to cheating and abuse within the church -- any reason people will go to church other than to spend time with the Lord is the serious stuff. The stuff that needs an arm-in-arm approach with the real bros.
Look at the list of what was going on in Corinth. THAT's the bad stuff.
And then look at the list in Romans of which sins cause that. I can guarantee it wasn't smoking or porn-watching that caused those problems. But, I'm sure if they had easy access to porn or tobacco had been a middle-eastern crop, that same church would have been worrying about that stuff for appearance sake.
I think this needs to go much deeper than it has.
You say -so what? It has everything to do with "not" being a sinner. How do you look at yourself? Saint or sinner? I didn't say we are sinless., we are saints who sin because we are learning how to walk in newness of life while still in these flesh suits.
Before that we could not be anything but lost sinners with no power to not sin. Now because we are IN Christ., we are saved saints with the power of His resurrection working in us and through us through the Holy Spirit. Gal.2:20
[SUP]20 [/SUP]I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ liveth in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.
Your not calling me a liar based on the authority of the Bible because that is not what the Bible says about me.
Did you read the verse in 2 Cor. 5:21 and consider it's meaning apart from your own understanding?
[SUP]
21 [/SUP]Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.
That is what we need to do if we seriously want to learn. We NEED to learn how to re think what we think we know and open our hearts and minds to what the Bible says. When we go before God., we don't do it in our own righteousness., we do it in Christ's righteousness given to us. That is our standing. Seeing ourselves in newness of life is essential to right living and thinking. Otherwise you're just the same old sinner who just happens to get saved. Salvation comes in 2nd or 3rd to our lives as we already know it. No major change takes place since we don't expect anything to come into fruition until we die and go to heaven.
No., everything changes all things become new and it begins here and now. We don't wait till we die to walk in newness of life.
And PS., we are not enemies here looking to zap each other with our opinions. We are sisters in Christ and learning how to see Christ as we open the Bible up and share what it says here. Right? That is how I look at it anyway. And hope to proceed in that way.
This statement should not be taken out of context. The context was the Law of Moses and the issue of adultery. Since the accusers could not meet the requirements, the charges were dismissed.
Apart from the fact that we should judge ourselves first, the Bible does give Christians the right to judge their fellow-believers within the context of their own church. Therefore they may even refuse fellowship with other Christians who persist in their sins. Furthermore, the local church -- through its elders -- has the right to disfellowship Christians who refuse to repent. That is in fact a judgment.
Judgment against another Christian is on the basis of whether or not that person is sinning, and the sins of the flesh and spirit are listed several times in the epistles. This judgment is basically to withdraw fellowship so that the sinning brother or sister repents and can be brought back into fellowship.
No. When two or three Christians can testify that another Christian is persisting in sinful behavior, it is not slander but judgment.
You can't separate the two. The person brings judgment upon himself by sinning.
Apart from the fact that we should judge ourselves first, the Bible does give Christians the right to judge their fellow-believers within the context of their own church. Therefore they may even refuse fellowship with other Christians who persist in their sins. Furthermore, the local church -- through its elders -- has the right to disfellowship Christians who refuse to repent. That is in fact a judgment.
Judgment against another Christian is on the basis of whether or not that person is sinning, and the sins of the flesh and spirit are listed several times in the epistles. This judgment is basically to withdraw fellowship so that the sinning brother or sister repents and can be brought back into fellowship.
No. When two or three Christians can testify that another Christian is persisting in sinful behavior, it is not slander but judgment.
You can't separate the two. The person brings judgment upon himself by sinning.
P
Bringing back your post again sis I couldn't help but ask. What is a little sin? What is a minor sin? If a little leaven spoils the whole then what is acceptable. What sin really doesn't matter?
Is it the conduct of the person, the image of the person, or the heart of a person, or all three. This is what I believe the Lord meant
when he said judge not least ye be judged.
If I practice sin openly yet fellowship with the saints and call myself a saint John says I'm a liar and the truth is not in me. Would you agree? Why?
Is it the conduct of the person, the image of the person, or the heart of a person, or all three. This is what I believe the Lord meant
when he said judge not least ye be judged.
If I practice sin openly yet fellowship with the saints and call myself a saint John says I'm a liar and the truth is not in me. Would you agree? Why?
D
In my denomination, we are free to admit to our sins. We are free to assume everyone around us sins daily, hourly, often minutely. The warring between our two sides. We do not have to put on the happy-faced-Christian mask. Matter of fact, putting that mask on is more likely to get you noticed in a way you don't want, than openly admitting to our weaknesses.
Strange things happened when allowed to be real. You run into other real people. People fighting the same fight. Better yet, people who got somewhere in that fight. Winning that war. And they are happy to help you -- arm in arm -- as compared to the ones who look down on you for not wearing the mask, and blast you because they never struggled with your kind of sin.
Ministries are born out of that.
-- There is a disabled ministry, because... well, you probably know this already having been there, but the frustrations of not having the normal-life we all think we deserve makes for some big frustrations. The disability itself causes all of our defenses to crash in on us, and we're left with some very raw emotions -- not always the godly kind. So spending time with others going through the same kinds of things equips us to handle it better.
-- My denomination is very big on studying the word and learning to converse in bigger thoughts than the average person thinks in. What does that cause? Haughtiness. Now, add that to the people who have graduate level courses and higher and what's that going to naturally lead to? Even more haughtiness. But, not enough yet. Add to their choices they also have to face people every day who can't think like they can, and worse yet, are in serious trouble. Frustration levels start raising. And then add one more thing to that plate -- the people they need to communicate with and help have a good likely outcome of death if they don't get it and even if they ever get it. Knowing people's lives are in your hands will be very tough to deal with, especially when you couldn't save them.
Who are those people? Doctors, nurses, hospital staff of all levels. Truly smart people -- Christians even -- who need to fellowship together to not need to hide behind their professional mask. another ministry in our church.
(Even our pastors gather together quietly, because darn if we don't all think they should be above it all, and darn if they don't go getting cocky because they understand the word better than most. lol)
-- Our church just happens to have landed (150+ years ago) into the section of Philadelphia where the homosexuals congregated. (We know that didn't "just happen.") Decades ago, some brave men admitted to their secret sin -- sexual sin. Because they could do that, they found others struggling with the same sins. (It's not just homosexuality. Matter of fact, back then, it had nothing to do with homosexuality.) They started a ministry once they all purposely looked to the Bible for help with their sin areas. And some went on to get the degrees in psychology to help. Today that same ministry helps anyone with sexual sin, including homosexuals. And, because AIDs hit, they ended up dealing with the aftermath of that. Once you come down with it, you're going to get worse and worse. You're going to die. And, in the end, someone has to feed you and take care of you, so they did it. And because of that, they are forever a conundrum on the homosexual community. Needless to say, the Lord getting in the way of that sin is not a plus for that community, however they certainly don't want to face their mortality, so it's good for someone to do it. Since someone is helping their own, they can't strike against them either. (Well, they can, but full-wrath hasn't been hit, because it's not beneficial to them.)
I can keep going. But those are a sampling of how sin can be met in the church. Real sin! Not happy-faced-Christian mask sin.
That's the deeper stuff.
Strange things happened when allowed to be real. You run into other real people. People fighting the same fight. Better yet, people who got somewhere in that fight. Winning that war. And they are happy to help you -- arm in arm -- as compared to the ones who look down on you for not wearing the mask, and blast you because they never struggled with your kind of sin.
Ministries are born out of that.
-- There is a disabled ministry, because... well, you probably know this already having been there, but the frustrations of not having the normal-life we all think we deserve makes for some big frustrations. The disability itself causes all of our defenses to crash in on us, and we're left with some very raw emotions -- not always the godly kind. So spending time with others going through the same kinds of things equips us to handle it better.
-- My denomination is very big on studying the word and learning to converse in bigger thoughts than the average person thinks in. What does that cause? Haughtiness. Now, add that to the people who have graduate level courses and higher and what's that going to naturally lead to? Even more haughtiness. But, not enough yet. Add to their choices they also have to face people every day who can't think like they can, and worse yet, are in serious trouble. Frustration levels start raising. And then add one more thing to that plate -- the people they need to communicate with and help have a good likely outcome of death if they don't get it and even if they ever get it. Knowing people's lives are in your hands will be very tough to deal with, especially when you couldn't save them.
Who are those people? Doctors, nurses, hospital staff of all levels. Truly smart people -- Christians even -- who need to fellowship together to not need to hide behind their professional mask. another ministry in our church.
(Even our pastors gather together quietly, because darn if we don't all think they should be above it all, and darn if they don't go getting cocky because they understand the word better than most. lol)
-- Our church just happens to have landed (150+ years ago) into the section of Philadelphia where the homosexuals congregated. (We know that didn't "just happen.") Decades ago, some brave men admitted to their secret sin -- sexual sin. Because they could do that, they found others struggling with the same sins. (It's not just homosexuality. Matter of fact, back then, it had nothing to do with homosexuality.) They started a ministry once they all purposely looked to the Bible for help with their sin areas. And some went on to get the degrees in psychology to help. Today that same ministry helps anyone with sexual sin, including homosexuals. And, because AIDs hit, they ended up dealing with the aftermath of that. Once you come down with it, you're going to get worse and worse. You're going to die. And, in the end, someone has to feed you and take care of you, so they did it. And because of that, they are forever a conundrum on the homosexual community. Needless to say, the Lord getting in the way of that sin is not a plus for that community, however they certainly don't want to face their mortality, so it's good for someone to do it. Since someone is helping their own, they can't strike against them either. (Well, they can, but full-wrath hasn't been hit, because it's not beneficial to them.)
I can keep going. But those are a sampling of how sin can be met in the church. Real sin! Not happy-faced-Christian mask sin.
That's the deeper stuff.