Could the tribulation start this year?

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Omegatime

Guest
I wanted to add why I see the fall as the beginning of the tribulation. As you know I see the resurrection at Pentecost and if I subtract 1335 days of Daniel from any dating of Pentecost it usually comes up to the month of October.
 

ZNP

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You definitely don't want to miss your flight.

 

Blain

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I don't believe in Pretrib but I do believe the chruch will be taken out before the wrath is outpoured starting in Rev 6 (end of chapter and starting in Rev 7) They call this in books the PreWrath position somewhat different then PreTrib. I believe in my own study God showed me this around 1979 actually before books started to be written about it and I do get it....many make such claims God told them this or that and no I don't expect someone just to believe God did but just that's what I feel. Tribulation happens IMO between Rev6 but the wrath starts in Rev 7. Many have thought Rev 6 all of it....the seals are the wrath of God...can't be. The fifth seal is persecutions against God's people....why would God bring wrath upon his people. So tribulation is persecution upon the saints....that's not God or his wrath. It's even defined when the wrath of God begins at the start of Rev 7.



Quite frankly I believe there's some of that in scripture as in the number 40 change. ..but biblical numerology I think is a great stretch for me to take too seriously. One needs I think to be careful.



But you are aware correct that a lot of people before 1988 said the generation would be 40 years? The teaching then was Israel became a nation 1948 add 40....1988 Thus the book came out in Christian bookstores, "88 Reasons Why Jesus Will Come Back Before 1988" Then some changed that to say maybe it was from 1967 when Israel took position of Jerusalem ....so add 40....2007. Then well maybe the generation is the 70-80 years.....and some are also saying now 120 years......meaning the ultimate long life God would give to some. Gen 6:3 . I don't know Blain....we'll see. Just don't get too dogmatic about your charts of whatever just know that Jesus is coming back sometime. I would agree with you though....I believe it's in our lifetime.
Yes prewrath is one that I find very likely as well I would not be surprised if that was in fact the case And I do understand that my info is still shaky it is only a starting point and is not concrete as fact but above all else even if I have to throw out my original info I just want to find the truth I want to dive deep into it to know exactly where we are in the timeline regarless of my beliefs.
In all honesty I know what the scriptures say and depending on how you look at it we can align current events with prophecy but to much is left to interpretation if I am to find the truth it has to be without biaas and just facts it would help if I knew a person on youtube who was like that that way I could watch and listen while doing my own studies in the scriptures
 

ZNP

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Psalm 27 The Lord is my light and my salvation;
Whom shall I fear?
The Lord is the strength of my life;
Of whom shall I be afraid?
2 When the wicked came against me
To eat[a] up my flesh,
My enemies and foes,
They stumbled and fell.
3 Though an army may encamp against me,
My heart shall not fear;
Though war may rise against me,
In this I will be confident.

4 One thing I have desired of the Lord,
That will I seek:
That I may dwell in the house of the Lord
All the days of my life,
To behold the [b]beauty of the Lord,
And to inquire in His temple.
5 For in the time of trouble
He shall hide me in His pavilion;
In the secret place of His tabernacle
He shall hide me;
He shall set me high upon a rock.

6 And now my head shall be [c]lifted up above my enemies all around me;
Therefore I will offer sacrifices of [d]joy in His tabernacle;
I will sing, yes, I will sing praises to the Lord.

7 Hear, O Lord, when I cry with my voice!
Have mercy also upon me, and answer me.
8 When You said, “Seek My face,”
My heart said to You, “Your face, Lord, I will seek.”
9 Do not hide Your face from me;
Do not turn Your servant away in anger;
You have been my help;
Do not leave me nor forsake me,
O God of my salvation.
10 When my father and my mother forsake me,
Then the Lord will take care of me.

11 Teach me Your way, O Lord,
And lead me in a smooth path, because of my enemies.
12 Do not deliver me to the will of my adversaries;
For false witnesses have risen against me,
And such as breathe out violence.
13 I would have lost heart, unless I had believed
That I would see the goodness of the Lord
In the land of the living.

14 Wait[e] on the Lord;
Be of good courage,
And He shall strengthen your heart;
Wait, I say, on the Lord!
 

ResidentAlien

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Apr 21, 2021
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I'm sorry but please explain where in this he does any of those things? He spoke of God's creations so what? Does not the rocks sing praises to him? The only thing this speaks of is how great the wisdom God gave him was if this was attempt to prove me wrong it was a very poor one
Okay, you win, have a blessed day. :)
 

Rockson

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Jul 24, 2021
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Yes prewrath is one that I find very likely as well I would not be surprised if that was in fact the case And I do understand that my info is still shaky it is only a starting point and is not concrete as fact but above all else even if I have to throw out my original info I just want to find the truth I want to dive deep into it to know exactly where we are in the timeline regarless of my beliefs.
I do think it has it's place of importance but you know something Blain. I think what's even more important is making sure one's spiritual relationship with God in prayer, praise and fellowship with him is strong. Inward spiritual strength and having it built up within one will get one through whatever the times are ahead. Yes even if there's persecutions one can face it not in dread or in stress but with YES even joy. The joy would be because we look at the bigger picture that this world is not our home and that we're just passing through and that we belong to a different kingdom.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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Yes prewrath is one that I find very likely as well I would not be surprised if that was in fact the case And I do understand that my info is still shaky it is only a starting point and is not concrete as fact but above all else even if I have to throw out my original info I just want to find the truth I want to dive deep into it to know exactly where we are in the timeline regarless of my beliefs.
In all honesty I know what the scriptures say and depending on how you look at it we can align current events with prophecy but to much is left to interpretation if I am to find the truth it has to be without biaas and just facts it would help if I knew a person on youtube who was like that that way I could watch and listen while doing my own studies in the scriptures
There are too many problems with prewrath theory, but a very glaring one is it requires an almost total rearranging of Revelation, proving it is a theory of error.

Case in point? The 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church age, and the days of Great Tribulation in Revelation won't start until late in chapter 14.
 

randyk

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Jan 14, 2021
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Pacific NW USA
I was speaking in the sense of God's plan for human history. There was a time that God dealt with mankind through Israel, His chosen people, who were tasked to preserve and present the gospel to the other nations. They failed. Now that task has been given to Gentiles. That doesn't mean that Israel is "off the map", but God's plan is no longer through them.
The task has not been taken away from the Jews, but away from the Jewish *nation.* Jews are still part of the Church today when they accept their Messiah Jesus. There has always been a remnant of Jews in the Church. So you can't say the Gospel has been given exclusively to the Gentiles, and not to the Jews!

The fact that many countries of the world aren't Christian doesn't mean that they live in a separate "dispensation" from the Church Age! China isn't Christian and it is in the same dispensation as the Church Age!

It is no different with Israel. Israel is no longer a nation of God, and is certainly not a Christian nation. But it is still in the dispensation of the Church Age! That's the problem with Dispensationalism--it is extremely confusing, and really isn't even true. It is, at best, half true, and that isn't close enough.

Jesus will return at the 2nd Advent in Israel. Obviously He will set up His Millennial kingdom in Israel. Can't imagine anywhere else.
The Scriptures say that Jesus will come back in the same way he left. He will come back to Israel, as promised, to restore that nation to godliness. But I believe he is also coming back for the world, to restore Christian nations. In the OT the focus was on Israel exclusively, and those promises have not gone away. But in the NT God's promises are extended to Christian nations. Not just Israel will be restored in the Millennial, even though the OT prophets focused on Israel at a time when only Israel was living for God.

I do believe Paul was removing racial distinctions in his writings. The Jews were extremely biased (racists) towards Gentiles. Paul intended to remove that bias.
We have to be clear what we're talking about, whether "removing bias" or "removing racial distinctions?" As I said, the qualification for Salvation was said not to be race-based, by Paul. Paul thus removed "racial bias." But he did *not* remove racial distincitons. He continued to state the difference between racial groups, though not with respect to Salvation. He identified the Jews and the Greeks, just as we would differentiate Germans, Latinos, and Chinese today.

As I noted before about the fact that all the building materials for another temple are already in place! They surely expect to build another temple. I think they are waiting for some special "sign" or something. I've heard about a "red heifer" and when they have one, they'll start building. The other issue is where to build. Dome of the Rock is where they want to, but of course, they will need permission from the Arabs.
We've covered this already. Yes, some Jews have been laying plans for a restoration of the Law for decades. It doesn't seem possible to me. There are a lot of secret religious organizations who think they are controlling world events. It's not real. Again, a rebuilt Jewish temple would disallow any ruler to take up residence there!

Since the beast, aka a/c, will be indwelt by Satan himself, who has the biggest God-complex of any creature in the universe, of course it makes sense that this beast would claim to be God himself and enter the temple to make that announcement. I don't care that Antiochus IV did that in 70 AD. I makes total sense to me that the beast will do the same.
Antiochus 4 did *not* take up residence in the temple, nor make it his throne room. And yet Paul is saying just that, that Antichrist will take up residence *in the temple,* proclaiming himself Deity. That just can't happen with a reconstructed OT temple! The second the Antichrist removes the ark of the covenant it ceases to be a Jewish temple. But I think Paul is talking about a metaphorical declaration, that Antichrist is assuming a place in God's heavenly temple.

:) Been fun discussing this with you.
Yes, we agree on some important things, and these are just conversation pieces. I'm not signing off on any of it in blood! ;)
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Big Question---How do you account for the resurrection at Passover?
I believe the Scriptures I quoted prove that there is only ONE resurrection for saved people.

Could you quote the verse or passage that shows a resurrection at Passover?
 
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No problem, if he is right you will know in the next 2 weeks. In fact he is saying that the day that begins tomorrow at sunset and ends on Wed. at sunset is the 9th of AV, a day of crying.
If the film guy is right, he has proven the Bible is contradicted.

Didn't you read any of the verses I posted?
 
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This guy can claim to have studied "for years" and hold up a very thick notebook (I think) to show all his study, but it seems he missed several very important verses.

Here are the problems with his view of the world being "left behind".

1. no verses show Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.
2. the Bible says there are TWO resurrections; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. {this proves there are only TWO resurrections; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.}

Rev 20:4,5
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

{Bolded words prove these are tribulation martyrs. Red words refer to believer resurrection, and blue words clearly state this resurrection is the FIRST one.}

3. 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

{this verse discusses the FIRST resurrection and shows TWO "phases" or parts. The first one is Christ Himself, the FIRST human being to be resurrected. The blue words refer to every believer from Adam on, since ALL believers from Adam on "belong to Him". To try to narrow this down to just the "Bride of Christ" or NT believers is futile. The green words tell us WHEN the FIRST resurrection of the saved will occur: "then, when He comes". There are NO verses in the Bible that prophesy that Jesus will come before the trib.

4. There is a verse that clearly states WHEN the rapture occurs. It is at the "coming of our Lord".

2 Thess 2:1-3
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Red words indicate the Second Advent, at the end of the Trib. Blue words indicate the FIRST resurrection and rapture. The green words refer to the FIRST DAY of the time period called "the Day of the Lord". It begins at the end of the Trib when Christ comes back to earth as King of kings and ends the battle of Armageddon and sets up His 1,000 year reign. The purple words refer to the Trib and the beast, aka antichrist. The words are clear. The Trib and a/c will occur BEFORE the Second Advent and rapture.

"""1. no verses show Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven."""

Unbelievably false and you have ALREADY benn debunked in that baloney.

You NEED those raptured to do the imaginary false uturn in the sky back to earth. Nowhere is that dynamic in scripture.
Your doctrine created that falsehood
 
Jan 31, 2021
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According to typology the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Antichrist are released tomorrow evening. :)

SW
Verses, please?

Claims without any biblical evidence is only that; a claim.

Thanks.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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You definitely don't want to miss your flight.

No flights to heaven have been scheduled.

Unless you can find a verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

But, of course, there aren't any. So, no flights.

Just some "flights of fancy". ;)
 
O

Omegatime

Guest
I believe the Scriptures I quoted prove that there is only ONE resurrection for saved people.

Could you quote the verse or passage that shows a resurrection at Passover?
Matthew 27:51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; 52 the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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I do think it has it's place of importance but you know something Blain. I think what's even more important is making sure one's spiritual relationship with God in prayer, praise and fellowship with him is strong. Inward spiritual strength and having it built up within one will get one through whatever the times are ahead. Yes even if there's persecutions one can face it not in dread or in stress but with YES even joy. The joy would be because we look at the bigger picture that this world is not our home and that we're just passing through and that we belong to a different kingdom.
Yes first and foremost the love and intimacy with God has to be first. Personally even if I had to go through the tribulation I asked God to serve him in that time I sought to be strong in him not for myself but for him and for others and in this time his love and his light is going to be needed the most perhaps I will be held to my request or perhaps I won't either way he lead me to search about the tribulation for a reason I am just following his leading.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
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Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
{this proves there are only TWO resurrections; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.}


The resurrection is likened to the harvest, whether it is of wheat, tares, grapes, barley, figs, or whatever. For each of them there is one harvest, but when you look at the harvest season there are multiple harvests. This verse does not in any way prove that there are only two raptures, but rather that for both righteous and wicked there will be a gathering.

Rev 20:4,5
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.
They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.


{Bolded words prove these are tribulation martyrs. Red words refer to believer resurrection, and blue words clearly state this resurrection is the FIRST one.}


Again, this does not in any way prove there isn't a pretribulation rapture, only that there are some saints who are not raptured at that time. The context of this being "the first resurrection" is with the thousand year millenial reign, in other words we will have a resurrection prior to that millenial reign.

3. 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

{this verse discusses the FIRST resurrection and shows TWO "phases" or parts. The first one is Christ Himself, the FIRST human being to be resurrected. The blue words refer to every believer from Adam on, since ALL believers from Adam on "belong to Him". To try to narrow this down to just the "Bride of Christ" or NT believers is futile. The green words tell us WHEN the FIRST resurrection of the saved will occur: "then, when He comes". There are NO verses in the Bible that prophesy that Jesus will come before the trib.


The word "firstfruits" is a direct reference to these harvest seasons, you generally have 3 seasons, you have the spring wheat, summer wheat, and then the fall harvest.


4. There is a verse that clearly states WHEN the rapture occurs. It is at the "coming of our Lord".
2 Thess 2:1-3
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Red words indicate the Second Advent, at the end of the Trib. Blue words indicate the FIRST resurrection and rapture. The green words refer to the FIRST DAY of the time period called "the Day of the Lord". It begins at the end of the Trib when Christ comes back to earth as King of kings and ends the battle of Armageddon and sets up His 1,000 year reign. The purple words refer to the Trib and the beast, aka antichrist. The words are clear. The Trib and a/c will occur BEFORE the Second Advent and rapture.
I get it, this is the elementary school teaching of "the coming of our Lord". It is like getting the view from 40,000 feet. As you dive into it there is a whole lot more nuance. I already told you I have posted all the references I could find here: https://christianchat.com/blogs/sum...es-on-the-rapture.197802/page-73#post-4625218

At this point I almost have 1,500 posts. The vast majority are expositions on the word of God, most by me, but I have provided links to many excellent videos that bring something more to the discussion from the word of God.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,215
2,551
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There are too many problems with prewrath theory, but a very glaring one is it requires an almost total rearranging of Revelation, proving it is a theory of error.

Case in point? The 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church age, and the days of Great Tribulation in Revelation won't start until late in chapter 14.
Well I am not disagreeing with you but perhaps revelation needs to be read in a rearraged way to really understand it. No one really fully understands revelation and each person believes they have it right people debate about it until they are blue but there is only one truth yet no one can agree on which it is.

This is why I want to understand without bias without my own personal beliefs preset when understanding all this, it's all to easy to read it and think to ourselves this is the truth but if we do this without looking at it from a non personaal view even if the truth is in front of us we will be blind to it and see only our truth