Cross?

[gerjozen]

Was it a cross that Christ died on? Guess it doesn't matter what He died on as long as He died for our sins, or does it matter? Has Golgotha become God's Altar for the Burnt Offering [Christ the Lamb] and the Cross, pole or stake the wood for the Burnt Offering?
So it seemed necessary that He had to be put on wood to be the burnt offering?

 

[Richie_2uk]

Was it a cross that Christ died on? Guess it doesn't matter what He died on as long as He died for our sins, or does it matter? Has Golgotha become God's Altar for the Burnt Offering [Christ the Lamb] and the Cross, pole or stake the wood for the Burnt Offering?
So it seemed necessary that He had to be put on wood to be the burnt offering?

Mark 8:34
And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me,

Did he say take up his stake and follow me? no it was a cross. Burnt? he didnt burn.

Mark 15:30
Save yourself, and come down from the cross!”

It clearly says it was a cross he died on. I know we shouldnt emphesis on what he died on, but what he did for us. But try not to wonder with your mind. it wont serve you well.

 

[gzusfrk]

Your 74 and never read the book. The word "Cross" is in the New Testament about 28 times, yes Jesus died on the Cross for us sinners.

 

[Richie_2uk]

Your 74 and never read the book. The word "Cross" is in the New Testament about 28 times, yes Jesus died on the Cross for us sinners.

Amen, and not burnt either, were he got the idea of being burnt i never know.

 

[Willie-T]

I, personally, don't see it as a "T" configuration. Way too many reasons point to a simple, straight pole. But, I really don't car what others choose to envision.

 

[Richie_2uk]

I, personally, don't see it as a "T" configuration. Way too many reasons point to a simple, straight pole. But, I really don't car what others choose to envision.

If he died on a stake then yes I would agree it would be just a long pole, a skake if you will, but it says cross in the bible, so that means its not a standing long pole stake standing upright or anything other shape other than a crossed object.

It clearly says in Mark 8:34 And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me, and in Mark 15:30 Save yourself, and come down from the cross!”

It clearly says it was a cross he died on. not a pole, or a skake. and i want to know were the op gets the idea that Jesus was burnt? I know we shouldnt emphesis on what he died on, but what he did for us.

 

[Willie-T]

If he died on a stake then yes I would agree it would be just a long pole, a skake if you will, but it says cross in the bible, so that means its not a stading long pole stake or anything other shape other than a crossed object.

It clearly says in Mark 8:34 And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me, and in Mark 15:30 Save yourself, and come down from the cross!”

It clearly says it was a cross he died on. not a pole, or a skake. and i want to know were the op gets the idea that Jesus was burnt? I know we shouldnt emphesis on what he died on, but what he did for us.

All I can say is just what I already said... (but with an "E") I really don't care.

 

[Richie_2uk]

All I can say is just what I already said... (but with an "E") I really don't care.

Exactly, we should not emphesis on what he died on, but what he died for, however I beleive he did die on the cross, hence the saying he died with an outstretched arms. not died with an upstretched arms.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

nice warm and fuzzy

 

[Willie-T]

Exactly, we should not emphesis on what he died on, but what he died for, however I beleive he did die on the cross, hence the saying he died with an outstretched arms. not died with an upstretched arms.

I guess I missed that verse.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

And we know it was made of wood (tree)

Galatians 3:13 "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:"

Deuteronomy 21:22-23 "And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:[SUP]23 [/SUP]His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God) that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance."

 

[DesiredHaven]

Was it a cross that Christ died on? Guess it doesn't matter what He died on as long as He died for our sins, or does it matter? Has Golgotha become God's Altar for the Burnt Offering [Christ the Lamb] and the Cross, pole or stake the wood for the Burnt Offering?
So it seemed necessary that He had to be put on wood to be the burnt offering?

Seems to show the wood laid upon Isaac (the only begotten of Abraham) and Him being offered up beforehand in what God would do in a figure (before) but what he would do (openly) afterwards.

For example

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

Heb 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise *him* up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in *a figure*

Acts 10:40 *Him* God raised up the third day, and shewed him *openly*

Jesus Christ in Isaac is shown in a figure but him (being Jesus Christ) God raised up and "shewed openly"

Gen 22:4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.

Gen 22:6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.

Gen 2:22 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering uponone of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Isaac had asked his father Abraham saying,

Gen 22:7 ...Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?

Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

John 1:36 And (John) looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Heb 10:1 The law having shadow of the good things to come not the very image of things

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Rom 8:2 He that spared not his own Son,but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

The cross of Christ

Gen 22:6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son;

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

[DesiredHaven]

Heres some more if your looking for them

Duet 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death , and thou hang him on a tree

1Peter 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Acts 10:3 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Duet 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Mat 27:57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:

Mat 27:58 He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.

Acts 13:9 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulcher.

Mat 27:59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,

Mat 27:60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Isaiah 55:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Numbers 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

And in whom we have the forgiveness of sins. And what was signified was Christ being lifted up

Gen 22:6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son

The wood laid upon the only begotten son

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[Richie_2uk]

Heres some more if your looking for them

Duet 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death , and thou hang him on a tree

1Peter 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Acts 10:3 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Duet 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Mat 27:57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:

Mat 27:58 He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.

Acts 13:9 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulcher.

Mat 27:59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,

Mat 27:60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Isaiah 55:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Numbers 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

And in whom we have the forgiveness of sins. And what was signified was Christ being lifted up

Gen 22:6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son

The wood laid upon the only begotten son

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

depends what translation you read from, I guess. it may say all those things but in the bible i read from it may say something slightly different but meani the same thing,

 

[Richie_2uk]

And we know it was made of wood (tree)

Galatians 3:13 "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:"

Deuteronomy 21:22-23 "And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:[SUP]23 [/SUP]His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God) that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance."

I guess it depends on what translation you read the quotes from.

 

[kennethcadwell]

There are four types of crosses that were used in crucifixion, and the standard two that were used by the Jews was the t or x shaped crosses. By going by the descriptions in the bible on how Jesus was crucified these two fit as well. I have seen reports and documentaries that support both, and give good supporting evidence for both.
The well accepted tradition is the t cross, but as it goes unless Jesus arms were wrapped around the cross post and nailed from behind or rope was used to secure His arms putting the nails through His hands would have just ripped away from the weight. Which is why the well thought up change was made to say the nails went through His wrists, and they use the excuse that the wrist is an extension of the hand to make it fit scripture.

Now with that being said focusing on what type of cross does not matter, as without the Lord being crucified on it for us, it would be just another piece of wood. The crucifixion is not about the cross, but what the Lord did for us on the cross. The cross in some teachings has almost if not become and idol which is very dangerous. Focus on Him and what He did for us and not just on the cross.

 

[DesiredHaven]

depends what translation you read from, I guess. it may say all those things but in the bible i read from it may say something slightly different but meani the same thing,

What is your question, I dont think Im getting where one is.

Which translation?

Says wood in Isaac, pole in Moses (which can be "a sign" or "ensign") which is something lifted up (as Christ said he would be lifted up after the same figure). As Isaac was showed in a figure, and Christ was showed very openly according to the former prophets by which God said he spoke in a similitude.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

... and the standard two that were used by the Jews was the t or x shaped crosses.

The Jews didn't use crosses. The Romans did. Rabbinic law limited capital punishment to just four methods of execution: Stoning, burning, strangulation, and decapitation. The passage in Deuteronomy was interpreted as an obligation to hang the corpse on a tree as a form of deterrence, but that was (obviously) after the condemned person's death.

By going by the descriptions in the bible on how Jesus was crucified these two fit as well. I have seen reports and documentaries that support both, and give good supporting evidence for both.

Remnants of these death tools that have been found throughout Palestine indicate only the third form was used in that area. The X type of cross was used in Italy and Spain. I haven't seen any evidence of the other two ever being used anywhere, but I'm sure somewhere in history they might have been.

The well accepted tradition is the t cross, but as it goes unless Jesus arms were wrapped around the cross post and nailed from behind or rope was used to secure His arms putting the nails through His hands would have just ripped away from the weight.

The Greek word is ceir (cheir) and does not include only the fingers and palms, but also the wrist roughtly halfway up the arm. Nailed through the forearm, the metatarsals would hold firm and not tear away in just a few hours, though they often did with men who had to hang on the cross for days.

Now with that being said focusing on what type of cross does not matter, as without the Lord being crucified on it for us, it would be just another piece of wood. The crucifixion is not about the cross, but what the Lord did for us on the cross. The cross in some teachings has almost if not become and idol which is very dangerous. Focus on Him and what He did for us and not just on the cross.

Because the Law stated that "cursed is the man who hangs on a tree," and the Rabbinic law forced the Sanhedrin to seek the cooperation of Rome to crucify Jesus, it is not lightly dismissed as that. The finished work of Christ was foreordained by the Father, and revealed to men when He dictated that Law to Moses on Sinai.

 

[Richie_2uk]

What is your question, I dont think Im getting where one is.

Which translation?

Says wood in Isaac, pole in Moses (which can be "a sign" or "ensign") which is something lifted up (as Christ said he would be lifted up after the same figure). As Isaac was showed in a figure, and Christ was showed very openly according to the former prophets by which God said he spoke in a similitude.

The word - Cross - is mentioned 28 times in the New Testament. Below are quotes from the (KJV)

1. Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
2. Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
3. Mat 27:32 And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.
4. Mat 27:40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
5. Mat 27:42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
6. Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
7. Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
8. Mar 15:21 And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross.
9. Mar 15:30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross.
10. Mar 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.
11. Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
12. Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
13. Luk 23:26 And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.
14. Joh 19:17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:
15. Joh 19:19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
16. Joh 19:25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
17. Joh 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
18. 1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
19. 1 Cor 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
20. Gal 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? Then is the offence of the cross ceased.
21. Gal 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
22. Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
23. Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
24. Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
25. Phi 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
26. Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
27. Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
28. Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Yes the Romans used the crosses, but it was the Jews who wanted the crucifixion to be carried out.
Remember Pontius Pilate did not want to crucify Jesus, and left the decision of to the Jewish crowd. They choose to let Barabbas go and not Jesus, and Pilate even had Jesus beaten to try and appease the crowd. The Jewish crowd lead by the Pharisees still invoked the crowd to scream for Jesus crucifixion. Pilate then even had a bowl of water brought and washed his hands showing that his hands were clean from doing this, as this was not what he wished to do.

The Jews didn't use crosses. The Romans did. Rabbinic law limited capital punishment to just four methods of execution: Stoning, burning, strangulation, and decapitation. The passage in Deuteronomy was interpreted as an obligation to hang the corpse on a tree as a form of deterrence, but that was (obviously) after the condemned person's death.

Remnants of these death tools that have been found throughout Palestine indicate only the third form was used in that area. The X type of cross was used in Italy and Spain. I haven't seen any evidence of the other two ever being used anywhere, but I'm sure somewhere in history they might have been.

The Greek word is ceir (cheir) and does not include only the fingers and palms, but also the wrist roughtly halfway up the arm. Nailed through the forearm, the metatarsals would hold firm and not tear away in just a few hours, though they often did with men who had to hang on the cross for days.

Because the Law stated that "cursed is the man who hangs on a tree," and the Rabbinic law forced the Sanhedrin to seek the cooperation of Rome to crucify Jesus, it is not lightly dismissed as that. The finished work of Christ was foreordained by the Father, and revealed to men when He dictated that Law to Moses on Sinai.