Crossing the Red Sea

[Jeff_56]

that's ridiculous val, they could have had a victory with only 50 gone out blowing trumpets if not for the sin in the camp.

read it again, and the other accounts in the OT also, and ask yahweh to open your mind to truth.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Adonai said to Y’hoshua, “Stand up! Why are you lying there face down? [SUP]11 [/SUP]Isra’el has sinned. Yes, they have violated my covenant, which I commanded them. They have taken some of what was to have been set aside for destruction. They have stolen it, lied about it and put it with their own things. [SUP]12 [/SUP]This is why the people of Isra’el cannot stand before their enemies. They turn their backs on their enemies, because they have come under a curse. I won’t be with you any more unless you destroy the things meant for destruction that you have with you. [SUP]13 [/SUP]So get up, consecrate the people, and say, ‘Consecrate yourselves in preparation for tomorrow; for here is what Adonai the God of Isra’el says: “Isra’el, you have things under the curse of destruction among you; and you will not be able to stand before your enemies until you remove the things that were to have been destroyed from among you.” [SUP]14 [/SUP]Therefore, tomorrow morning you are to come forward, one tribe at a time; the tribe Adonai takes is to come forward, one family at a time; the family Adonai takes is to come forward, one household at a time; and the household Adonai takes is to come forward, one person at a time. [SUP]15 [/SUP]The person who is caught with things in his possession that were reserved for destruction is to be burned to ashes, he and everything he has, because he has violated the covenant of Adonai and has committed a shameful deed in Isra’el.’”
[SUP]16 [/SUP]So Y’hoshua got up early in the morning and had Isra’el come forward, one tribe at a time; and the tribe of Y’hudah was taken. [SUP]17 [/SUP]He had the families of Y’hudah come forward and took the family of the Zarchi. He had the Zarchi family come forward by household leaders, and Zavdi was taken. [SUP]18 [/SUP]He had his household come forward, one person at a time; and ‘Akhan the son of Karmi, the son of Zavdi, the son of Zerach, of the tribe of Y’hudah, was taken.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Y’hoshua said to ‘Akhan, “My son, swear to Adonai, the God of Isra’el, that you will tell the truth and confess to him. Tell me, now, what did you do? Don’t hide anything from me.” [SUP]20 [/SUP]‘Akhan answered Y’hoshua, “It is true: I have sinned against Adonai, the God of Isra’el. Here is exactly what I did: [SUP]21 [/SUP]when I saw there with the spoil a beautiful robe from Shin‘ar, five pounds of silver shekels and a one-and-a-quarter-pound wedge of gold, I really wanted them. So I took them. You will find them hidden in the ground inside my tent, with the silver underneath.” [SUP]22 [/SUP]Y’hoshua sent messengers, who ran to the tent. It was all there, hidden in his tent, including the silver underneath. [SUP]23 [/SUP]They took the things from inside the tent, brought them to Y’hoshua and all the people of Isra’el, and put them down before Adonai.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Y’hoshua, together with all Isra’el, took ‘Akhan, the son of Zerach, with the silver, the robe, the gold wedge, his sons, his daughters, his cattle, his donkeys, his sheep, his tent, and everything he had, and brought them up to the Akhor Valley. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Y’hoshua said, “Why have you brought trouble on us? Today Adonai will bring trouble on you!” Then all Isra’el stoned him to death; they burned them to ashes and stoned them. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Over him they piled a great mound of stones, which is there to this day. Finally Adonai turned away from his fierce anger. And this is why that place is called the Valley of Akhor [trouble] to this day.
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) Copyright © 1998 by David H. Stern. All rights reserved.

 

[atwhatcost]

Okay, it looks like things have slowed down in this discussion so let' begin looking at the plagues shall we.
Let us begin with the water into blood.
The Plague of Blood, 14- 25 - Water into blood. Like the staff into the serpent, this miracle defies the laws of physics. Even the natural elements are going to respond to the will of God. In the natural process of physics, water molecules remain water molecules no matter what you do to them. You can turn it into a solid, you can convert it into steam/vapor/gas, and you can return it to its natural liquid state but, in each state, the water molecules still remain two atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen. They never simply transform into some other substance. Yet, they did! And they did it in a liquid state. When Aaron stretched his staff over the water, all the water of the land became blood.
A. Pharaoh's sorcerers duplicate the miracle. If they can duplicate the miracle, then Pharaoh can simply shrug it off to naturalistic explanations and disregard the power behind Moses demands. And God allow it to be so. What the magicians could not do was turn the blood into water.
B. Naturalistic explanation – Many explanations are offered by commentators attempting to explain the miracle of blood. They try to present each miracle as a chain reaction with each new event being the result of the one that preceded it. This theory was advanced by Greta Hort in the 1958 and this has since come to be known as 'Hort's Chain Reaction'. The “rivers into blood” has been attributed to:
1. A massive infusion of red clay into the Nile causing the river to take on a red color.
2. The presence of red algae in the water.
Neither of these would have killed all the fish nor would it have made the water undrinkable. Questions:
a. Were the people so ignorant that the did not know the difference between red colored muddy water and blood?
b. If the waters has simply become red due to some natural process, then why did the magicians duplicate the event?

C. The magnitude of the miracle
1. All the waters of Egypt
a. The rivers - All seven branches of the Nile that existed at the time.
b. The streams
c. The pools
d. The reservoirs
e. And whatever water was stored in all vessels of both wood and stone. These were for the household use. So, even the water that had been gotten earlier in the day for the daily use of the household was also turned into blood.
2. All the marine life dies, the river became foul and undrinkable. The putrid smell of blood that begins to sour in the sun would have made the land intolerable to live in. In addition to this would have been the smell of the decaying marine life in every river, stream, and pool.

D. The duration of the plague was seven days. The impact upon both the people and the livestock would have been devastating.

First, let me clarify, I am stepping to the side of scripture to look at it. No one knows exactly what happened there other than what the Bible says, so please remember this is my conjecture, not scripture.

Okay, here goes. When Moses came down off the mountain, (I know, weird place to start given this was later, but bear with me), he described what he saw of God. He didn't see God so much as he saw where God's feet were. (And, it gets more confusing since, how did he see God's feet, if he didn't see God?) God's feet were on something blue. At least blue in my eyes. Moses saw it as a color of a stone. (I'm not big on semi-precious or precious minerals, so I'm never sure what it was, other than I think what we call sapphire. Could be turquoise, but the Bible's word for it isn't one I know today, so I can't look it up.) When John was taken up to the third heaven, he saw the same thing under God's feet. He also saw a lot of stuff he could only explain as a man of his time. And so did Moses.

Back in those days, they didn't know what a red tide is or how it happened. It also didn't happen as often, because they weren't industrialized back then, nor did they use chemicals to fertilize their crops. I'd think they'd be hard-pressed to get what algae is like we get it today. So, yeah, put a bunch of poisonous red algae in a brackish water and it could kill all the river's critter population. Putting it there at just the right time and with that amount could only be explained as "God did it." But, red tide does kill out all water critters and really is red sometimes.

How did it get in their drinking water? Drinking water was in terra cotta containers -- what they called "jars." They got it from the source of all to them -- the Nile. Same water, same tiny critters we call algae, and still the same growth rate. Stagnant water would be a bonus for the algae. It's certainly a byproduct of my garden, since I don't have flowing water. lol

Add to that, the Bible even said people were digging up new holes along the river to get their drinking water. (I don't remember if they were successful, but I think some were.)

How did the magicians do it? I still don't get that. Not because of "magic," but because what water were they using? The water was contaminated. There's a void in what I understand and think I understand because of that question in my head. Pretty cool they could do it though.

And, yeah much cooler God knew they'd do that and let it happen anyway. I think that contributed to Pharaoh's heart hardening even before God led him down that path.

As I mentioned before, I read/heard somewhere that physics is how God set up the order of the universe. Miracle is when he changes it.

Miracle, either theory, is the timing and expansion of the physics.

I grew up on Hollywood. I know the stuff I see on TV or the big screen looks like blood, but it's not. I tend to think the Nile looked like blood, but it wasn't. Since it killed everything alive in it, it might as well have been blood. I don't know what that stuff is they use for blood in Hollywood, so my word for it is "blood." I tend to think Moses was accurate in calling it blood, even if, maybe, it wasn't.

I'm not saying God didn't do a biggie here. (It was HUGE! It affected all of Egypt, but not the Israelites. Not the Israelites is a miracle.) I'm suggesting he didn't need an out-and-out miracle to pull this off.

 

[atwhatcost]

I have been thumbing through the pages of this thread and my question would be.....What serious spiritual significance is gained from knowing the exact route taken by the Exodus travels.....the bigger picture is what does the wandering represent, what does the delivery from the wilderness represent and why it took a SAVIOR to deliver to the promise land (Joshua) over the LAW and prophets (MOSES and Aaron) which could only take the people so far while POINTING the direction and to the SAVIOR!

Back at you. Why are you only a big picture guy? Do you think we should only stick with the big picture, or are small-detail guys good too?

Personally, I think both are needed. Big picture guys give us the... wait for it... big picture. lol Small-detail guys give us a how-did-that-happen-exactly approach to the big picture ending.

God's bigger than our biggest picture of him, and yet he is much into the small details. He made a species of ants that cut leaves. He made a crystal that can only be found in the depths of two caves (that we know about. He probably made more.) He made a moon for just about every planet, but we've only visited one. He gave us all this, so why not check out the small details? It's not like it makes God smaller. To some of us, it makes us understand how big he is better, and we're never going to get that, quite possibly into the next life.

So, why not?

 

[atwhatcost]

For... Sanctify them with your Truth, for thy Word is Truth.

And God's Truth (His Word) is in harmony with Science and History.

​I agree with you about his truth. I keep thinking you think your thoughts are his truth. Not the same thing.

 

[oldhermit]

First, let me clarify, I am stepping to the side of scripture to look at it. No one knows exactly what happened there other than what the Bible says, so please remember this is my conjecture, not scripture.

Okay, here goes. When Moses came down off the mountain, (I know, weird place to start given this was later, but bear with me), he described what he saw of God. He didn't see God so much as he saw where God's feet were. (And, it gets more confusing since, how did he see God's feet, if he didn't see God?) God's feet were on something blue. At least blue in my eyes. Moses saw it as a color of a stone. (I'm not big on semi-precious or precious minerals, so I'm never sure what it was, other than I think what we call sapphire. Could be turquoise, but the Bible's word for it isn't one I know today, so I can't look it up.) When John was taken up to the third heaven, he saw the same thing under God's feet. He also saw a lot of stuff he could only explain as a man of his time. And so did Moses.

Back in those days, they didn't know what a red tide is or how it happened. It also didn't happen as often, because they weren't industrialized back then, nor did they use chemicals to fertilize their crops. I'd think they'd be hard-pressed to get what algae is like we get it today. So, yeah, put a bunch of poisonous red algae in a brackish water and it could kill all the river's critter population. Putting it there at just the right time and with that amount could only be explained as "God did it." But, red tide does kill out all water critters and really is red sometimes.

How did it get in their drinking water? Drinking water was in terra cotta containers -- what they called "jars." They got it from the source of all to them -- the Nile. Same water, same tiny critters we call algae, and still the same growth rate. Stagnant water would be a bonus for the algae. It's certainly a byproduct of my garden, since I don't have flowing water. lol

Add to that, the Bible even said people were digging up new holes along the river to get their drinking water. (I don't remember if they were successful, but I think some were.)

How did the magicians do it? I still don't get that. Not because of "magic," but because what water were they using? The water was contaminated. There's a void in what I understand and think I understand because of that question in my head. Pretty cool they could do it though.

And, yeah much cooler God knew they'd do that and let it happen anyway. I think that contributed to Pharaoh's heart hardening even before God led him down that path.

As I mentioned before, I read/heard somewhere that physics is how God set up the order of the universe. Miracle is when he changes it.

Miracle, either theory, is the timing and expansion of the physics.

I grew up on Hollywood. I know the stuff I see on TV or the big screen looks like blood, but it's not. I tend to think the Nile looked like blood, but it wasn't. Since it killed everything alive in it, it might as well have been blood. I don't know what that stuff is they use for blood in Hollywood, so my word for it is "blood." I tend to think Moses was accurate in calling it blood, even if, maybe, it wasn't.

I'm not saying God didn't do a biggie here. (It was HUGE! It affected all of Egypt, but not the Israelites. Not the Israelites is a miracle.) I'm suggesting he didn't need an out-and-out miracle to pull this off.

The red algae theory was favored theory of Greta Hort who popularized the now famous Hort's chain reaction theory regarding the 10 plagues of Egypt and many people have really been suckered into this dyadic perception of the plagues. Why don't we just begin with the first plague and I will present her theories without prejudice and then we will see if those theories will stand the test of the text. Will this be alright?

 

[atwhatcost]

by reasonable implication, I mean that's what I think a common reading of the text would lead an average person to think...

could God have caused each wheel on the chariots to miraculously freeze up? certainly!

suppose the ground is very moist... dry enough to be called 'dry ground', and dry enough for people and livestock to walk on easily...

I think we don't know if the Israelites had carts, let's assume they didn't...

have you ever ridden a bike over ground that you could easily have walked on, but the bike wheels, each time they go around, pick up a little more dirt? that could easily happen to chariots, especially since the ground had already been churned up by the israelites and the horses pulling the chariots...

to me, that's the picture that arises in my mind from the text...

I tend to think if someone tells me it's dry ground, I won't have to wash my shoes after walking over it. And, sorry, but if my bike oozed into mud, my feet would have too. I'm BIG. I'm the average weight of the back field of a professional football team. (Our version of football. lol) I used to be the average height, so I'm just getting used to being shorter. So, really, if my bike tire goes into mud, I have to clean my shoe if I walk over it too.

I didn't know it was possible for that not to happen until you said it is. But think about it. Surely, I'm not huge compared to 600,000 men, donkeys, an the occasional steer, maybe a horse or two, and probably a camel or 50 walking through that seabed. Why would the Israelites get through, but faster and stronger Egyptians could not? Did God change the consistency of that ground? It's certainly possible, but the more probable is he rusted/froze the chariots' wheels to stop them. The only thing we have, for sure, is God's word. We're just both conjecturing differently.

 

[mikeuk]

Consider the circumstances of this event. There are most probably in the neighborhood of 3,000,000 people and the sea is at this point about 1000' in depth. What application of physics could possibly explain the parting of the Red Sea as it is described in Exodus 14?

BTW, this is not about which site is the supposed correct place of the crossing so please do not go there.

I often wonder why Christians try to constrain our God to using only the primitive physics of our understanding, and seem to not want to allow him to bend the rules of his own creation,

But if you are looking for interesting ideas, then as a one time physicist I can say there is evidence that high strength magnetic fields can increase van der waals forces , so making the skin on water tougher, so perhaps the wielding of such forces created the walls by using waters own surface tension!

 

[Bowhunter2394]

If one doesn't understand that the Miracles of Exodus were Supernatural, or they lean to a more Natural understanding.. God can show you where they were Supernatural.. He is not sitting up there with a hammer everytime we don't understand something.. pounding you on the Head because you don't understand it all...... He is Meek, and Gentle, and will teach you.. even as a Christian, if you genuinely want to know and understand He stands there.. waiting.. and He will draw you in and show you... not condemning you because you dont know it all.. Some things the Disciples COULD NOT understand when Jesus was here the 1st time.. He said 'ye cannot bear them now ' nor understand them.. Until He opened their Minds and Understanding to the Scripture... Patience is one of the Fruits of the Spirit, when you patiently wait on Him, seek His fAce. He will reward you.. there is a reward for those who diligently seek His Face..

 

[atwhatcost]

I agree that every english translation I've seen uses the larger numbers... I think it's the majority opinion...

knowledge is sometimes lost, and the translators have to make a guess... for example, sometimes the masoretic text is corrupt, that is, the letters don't make sense, and the translators have to try to figure out how altering the most likely letters will render a workable solution... sometimes they use the lxx...

consider that Jewish people today don't know how to pronounce 'yhwh', which had vowels at one time...

We really have lost the meaning of a few words in the Bible. Very few. I started studying the Bible from the beginning last May. I'm only to Lev. 26. I've met two words that are unknown now so far. One was in Genesis. The other in Leviticus. None in Exodus.

The scholars do tell which words they are unsure of.

 

[atwhatcost]

IGNORE.........

​I have ignored. It would be easier to ignore, if you would ignore. The only time I see him is if you quote him. lol

 

[valiant]

They would not have won the first battle of Ai even if they had taken 6,000,000 or 600,000,000 troops because Achin had violated the prohibitions from God regarding the city. Suppose you show me where God told them to take all the fighting men with them in connection with the battle of Ai. In Chapter 8 when they again attacked Ai Joshua selected only 30,000 men out of the total number of soldiers and defeated Ai. I do not understand why you persist in arguing about things of which you clearly know nothing. Please stop wasting my time.

LOL the thirty 'thousand' were the ambush. Joshua took ALL THE FIGHTING MEN and from them chose thirty thousand for the ambush. then he said to them 'I and ALL the people will approach the city -- and will flee' (all 600,000 0f them? wow).

Then the thirty thousand were to come in from behind. You don't even know your Bible.

 

[oldhermit]

I often wonder why Christians try to constrain our God to using only the primitive physics of our understanding, and seem to not want to allow him to bend the rules of his own creation,

But if you are looking for interesting ideas, then as a one time physicist I can say there is evidence that high strength magnetic fields can increase van der waals forces , so making the skin on water tougher, so perhaps the wielding of such forces created the walls by using waters own surface tension!

I am certainly no physicist and my understanding of the scientific dynamics of physics are rather limited. That is an interesting idea. I wonder if this may not answer the description of this event given in Ex 15:8, "At the blast of your nostrils the waters piled up; the floods stood up in a heap; the deeps congealed in the heart of the sea."

 

[atwhatcost]

I think the resources in sinai are not as great as in some areas, like say, mesopotamia... I don't think there have been any great cities or empires there... not very many resources there...

dryish areas can often support a limited number of grazing livestock... I think...

the 'self-sustaining' folks tend to be sparcely populated, I think...

there's no question why they would dislike the israelites... the question for me is how they could mount any significant resistance...

maybe not so much ny moving into tx, I think, maybe china moving into tx...

There have been no great civilizations in South Carolina, North Dakota, Wyoming or Alaska. Each one of those states is sparsely populated for its size. There's still a lot of people in all of them. And I picked Texas because there's a lot more out-of-the-way land there spattered with people than New Yorkers would expect. lol

 

[oldhermit]

LOL the thirty 'thousand' were the ambush. Joshua took ALL THE FIGHTING MEN and from them chose thirty thousand for the ambush. then he said to them 'I and ALL the people will approach the city -- and will flee' (all 600,000 0f them? wow).

Then the thirty thousand were to come in from behind. You don't even know your Bible.

NOOOO Valient. He took about 5,000 men from the 30,000 and set them in ambush between Bethel and Ai, to the west of the city. Why don't you READ the text and stop making a fool of yourself and annoying people.

 

[atwhatcost]

if I may comment here (and I'm not saying this is for sure what's going on)

sometimes people are of a mind to want things 'nailed down'... often then they will want to read resources or commentaries only from the most conservative writers... those writers in turn usually want things 'nailed down', and present their data as such...

so, when presented with the suggestion that there is a translation question, the reaction is 'it cannot be'...

If it helps any, I am conservative. I think my bones are conservative, so I use conservative writers to study from. Of course we want things nailed down. We're also reasonable and know what we want isn't always what we get.

I just mentioned there are two words in the Bible (up to Lev. 26) that can't be translated. I learned that from conservative writers. I remember that because the conservative writers took a very long time explaining all the possible meanings after admitting no one knows for sure. They didn't get all that from not studying at length. We accept that some stuff can't be nailed down, but only after proving it cannot be. lol

 

[Jason0047]

​I agree with you about his truth. I keep thinking you think your thoughts are his truth. Not the same thing.

I can say the same for you. As a matter of fact, we are to be good Bereans and keep open minded about the Scriptures and see whether those things be so or not. Most people I talk with here are quick to judge and they do not confirm whether those things be so or not in the Scriptures. They attack the believer and they do not stick to the argument at hand. Others talk in a confusing way whereby you do not know what they are talking about so as to confirm any kind of truth that they say. But there is a point when one has confirmation in walking with the Spirit, though. God speaks to us with His Word. What am I talking about?

Well, there are many times God has talked to me with His Word.

This is one example here.

 

[oldhermit]

​I have ignored. It would be easier to ignore, if you would ignore. The only time I see him is if you quote him. lol

Yea. He is really getting to be an annoyance. I guess the only reason I sometimes respond is because I refuse to let him get away with his constant and blatant misrepresentations of scripture. This will never help him but it may help other readers. The only time I ignore him is when he says something so obviously outlandish that it does not require rebuttal.

 

[atwhatcost]

Wow! What do you base this on?

1. What about the flood in Genesis? Timing or Miraculous?

2. Birth of Isaac? Timing or Miraculous?

3. Here's one closer to the plagues: And the LORD said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow.

Was that timing or miraculous?

4. Was the parting of the Red Sea timing or miraculous?

5. The water from the rock, timing or miraculous?

6. Water to wine, timing or miraculous? (Timing! It was residual red water from the Nile in the days of Egypt. The Israelites saved jars and jars of it for chemical warfare. Eventually storing it in cool caverns. through years various mixings of air, dust, wind, and who knows what else . . . atom, molecules. There the red water became drinkable, and Jesus used some of it for the wine. He himself drank some and about 3 years later after He was crucified and buried in the tomb, that red water brought Him back to life.)

You are in deNIAL of the power of God and His plague upon the NILE.

Um, I was basing it on the discussion we were having -- about the Exodus. Not the big flood, not Isaac, not anything else. Nor was I denying God's power, (but thank you very much for cutting my words to make it look like that.) Keep up.

 

[atwhatcost]

To be clear, I will no longer respond to the attack on me. I will report. If the reports don't work, then I respond. In which case, watch out! I just hit my own version of wrath.

 

[atwhatcost]

​Time to go, or I wil say things I will regret. Sorry about this to those I was talking to. I'll be back when I can.