Cut off her hand...

[Scrobulous]

God is greater than Bible in which we are not sure about so many places, anyway. We know His character as presented by Christ. We know his mercy and grace.

Therefore, I agree, that its better to just put some strange verses aside than to see God in a wrong perspective, as unjust or cruel.

its always better to say "I do not understand this verse" or to say "I think this verse is not inspired" than to say "God can be cruel because He is God and can do whatever He wants".

We love God, because He deservers our love. Not because He simply commanded us to love Him.

I agree with you 100% , trofimus.

 

[memyselfi]

I don’t think this is the word of God.
I think people defending this position are like Job’s comforters. Defending God’s honour out of a misplaced understanding. I don’t think God will be very impressed. Jesus himself didn’t reach for the stones or the knives.

So was Yeshua/Jesus lying, making something up that sounded good when He said " You believe in Moses, believe also in Me" John 5:46?

 

[rlm68]

I don’t think this is the word of God.
I think people defending this position are like Job’s comforters. Defending God’s honour out of a misplaced understanding. I don’t think God will be very impressed. Jesus himself didn’t reach for the stones or the knives.

It's a lot like reading the sin requirements from Moses' point of view under the LAW concerning sacrifice and burnt offering. But when we get to David in the Book of Psalms, we see that God never wanted sacrifice and burnt offerings. So, it leads to this question: Since Moses was in control of basically freed slaves who did not know how to actually conduct themselves, did he (Moses) pull a fast one? Animal sacrifice and burnt offerings was how the Egyptians worshiped their deities. Why would our God want His CHOSEN people to follow the same example as the Egyptians?

I think Moses played God, personally!!

 

[trofimus]

So was Yeshua/Jesus lying, making something up that sounded good when He said " You believe in Moses, believe also in Me" John 5:46?

In the first century, there were several Old Testament canons (or, better to say, there was no canon) and several Old Testament textual versions.

Therefore, Jesus is not referencing to some "perfect Bible idol", there, but to Scriptures about Christ Jews should know and believe in, being Jews.

 

[rlm68]

It's a lot like reading the sin requirements from Moses' point of view under the LAW concerning sacrifice and burnt offering. But when we get to David in the Book of Psalms, we see that God never wanted sacrifice and burnt offerings. So, it leads to this question: Since Moses was in control of basically freed slaves who did not know how to actually conduct themselves, did he (Moses) pull a fast one? Animal sacrifice and burnt offerings was how the Egyptians worshiped their deities. Why would our God want His CHOSEN people to follow the same example as the Egyptians?

I think Moses played God, personally!!

I also think this is why David and Joshua mention the Book of Jasher.

For those not familiar with Jasher, it's the first 5 Books of our Bible without the need for animal sacrifice and burnt offerings.

Gotta admit, for Joshua and David both to mention a Book that obviously the followers of God used back then, probably means they followed what was in the Book of Jasher like we follow the 4 Gospels today.

And, if Jasher does not include the need for animal sacrifice and burnt offerings...why would Moses write there was a need for it?


Lot's of unanswered questions that one day we will understand. Until then, we just keep the faith in God and trust Him!!

 

[Miri]

I asked why the law of God demands amputation and the stoning of bulls in the situations described in Deut 25:11-12. I have been told these laws were intended as a deterrent. In which case, society should suggest boiling people in oil for not returning their library books, after all this is a crime against the whole community and how about hanging and disembowelling people who park their cars in the wrong place? If the laws are savage enough, no one commit crime at all, right? Saudis amputate the hands of thieves and we think them pretty barbarous, but the effectiveness is undisputed. Not many steal in Saudi, but some do and they suffer amputation. They are given anaesthetic. Imagine if they were not. So why don’t we go down this route? Because we recognise that the law is an expression of our aspirations. We are defined by our laws.
How can I obey Psalm 1:2 ?
The implication of this is that I will reevaluate how I interpret the bible. The bible is written by men. Many parts of it are inspired by God and some parts are not. Working out which are and which are not is actually no big deal. One can smell the bits that come from men, the divorce laws and the stoning of animals easily enough.

So what you are saying is that all the gory bits must be made up by people.
What about the death of Jesus on the cross will you disregard that as well?

2 Timothy 3:16-17 NKJV
[16] All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine,
for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, [17] that the man
of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Either that or you think your standard of right, wrong and holyiness surpasses
God’s.

Luke 18:19 NKJV
[19] So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.

 

[memyselfi]

In the first century, there were several Old Testament canons (or, better to say, there was no canon) and several Old Testament textual versions.

Therefore, Jesus is not referencing to some "perfect Bible idol", there, but to Scriptures about Christ Jews should know and believe in, being Jews.

So you are saying G-d/ Jesus is an idiot and does not know what He is talking about or the New Testament is wrong?

 

[trofimus]

So you are saying G-d/ Jesus is an idiot and does not know what He is talking about or the New Testament is wrong?

I think you do not know what you are talking about.

Your use of "G-d" together with vulgarisms says much about you. Fanatism (G-d) combined with emotionalism.

 

[rlm68]

So what you are saying is that all the gory bits must be made up by people.
What about the death of Jesus on the cross will you disregard that as well?

2 Timothy 3:16-17 NKJV
[16] All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine,
for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, [17] that the man
of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Either that or you think your standard of right, wrong and holyiness surpasses
God’s.

Luke 18:19 NKJV
[19] So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.

NO, the group of Pharisees that begin with letter E around 1st century church, claims that Christ said He was here to end all of sacrifice. And that if the Jews would not stop sacrificing that God would have judgement upon them.

Basically, from that text, it would appear the Hebrew/Jews were not ordered to sacrifice and that Christ came to end all sacrifice. And in doing so, He became the sacrifice.

the ESSENES!!

 

[memyselfi]

I think you do not know what you are talking about.

Your use of "G-d" together with vulgarisms says much about you. Fanatism (G-d) combined with emotionalism.

I think I quoted Yeshua/Jesus in the New Testament and you told me why Jesus was wrong, because He did not know the Old Testament …. which is funny because He is the Author of it!!!...lol...

 

[trofimus]

2 Timothy 3:16-17 NKJV
[16] All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine,
for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, [17] that the man
of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Either that or you think your standard of right, wrong and holyiness surpasses
God’s.

Ever considered that the Bible you have today does not have to equal Scriptures Timothy had or Paul talked about?

 

[Miri]

Ever considered that the Bible you have today does not have to equal Scriptures Timothy had or Paul talked about?

Try a study on how many times, throughout the old and New Testament,
the Holy Spirit is referred to. Not just by Paul and Timothy.

Timothy was stating the obvious under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
If you don’t think Timothy was stating the truth, then does that mean you don’t
think the Holy Spirit was active, real and living throughout God’s history.

 

[memyselfi]

Ever considered that the Bible you have today does not have to equal Scriptures Timothy had or Paul talked about?

If you question the integrity of the Scripture how can you possibly think some crazy story of a man dyeing on a cross, raising from the dead after three days, acceding up to and sitting at the right hand of G-d, as G-d. I man that is ludacris unless all 66 Books of the Bible are TRUE!!!!

 

[Scrobulous]

This is a subject matter that requires a whole lot of homework. So just the outline here.

From God's pronouncement to to satan in Genesis 3 that it would be by the Seed of the woman that he would be destroyed, till the Birth, Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, satan sought to destroy the line that Jesus would come from. Satan didn't know how long God would wait to fulfill His judgement. So he started immediately by killing Abel through Cain, and therby also destroying Cain by God's Hand.

But of course from then the line would come through Seth. Satan changed his strategy with his fellow fallen cohorts corrupting virtually the whole human race, except Noah, who the Bible tells us was perfect in his generation, or read that HIS GENES!

But Genesis 6 tells us "and also after that" referring to emergence of the nephillim, or progeny of the fallen angels. I do not believe there was a second fall of different angels. And Jude tells us that the ones that committed the horrible sin of mating with human women are currently held in chains

So SOMEONE on that Ark aside from Noah had at least some portion of fallen angel DNA. Maybe one of the wives of Noah's sons.

But merely carrying a gene does not guarantee that it will be passed down to every offspring. Just like today, not every kid inherits a disease from there parents unless certain criteria is met.

So at this point you need to do a serious study of nephillim, rephaim, and giants. There ARE four gentile women in Jesus's lineage, some of whom come from these affected gentile nations.

But you are also certainly right that one of the reasons God forbade intermarriage was because He knew the people would be lured into demonic idol worship.

I do not accept that one can read Noah’s uprightness as having anything to do with his genes.

The genes are the chemical and biological means of constructing your body, they have nothing to do with your morality. In fact your argument is unbiblical. God always intended to save people from every race. There are no genetic pariahs. God would have been delighted if some Amalekites or Philistines converted and became citizens of Israel. They were not barred by their genes or race, but by their refusal to repent, by their sins.

As for this seed and bloodline theory of yours: It too is unbiblical. The bloodline of Christ WAS corrupt! That’s the point. Christ came to redeem fallen humanity. He would not be stopped by his bloodline. It is error to think some are worse than others. I have no doubt that even the son of a demon would be accepted if he repented. You have a case if you say that because he was the son of a demon, he could not repent. I have no idea. Such discussions are outside the scripture, so I will not comment. But I am not talking about the Nephilim I am talking about the men of the nations that surrounded Israel.

In my view, God wiped out some nations because he had to. It was done reluctantly. These nations would not turn and were simply filling up the pit of hell. God does not take pleasure in wrath. His wrath is simply his reaction to men who refuse to be saved.

 

[memyselfi]

I do not accept that one can read Noah’s uprightness as having anything to do with his genes.

The genes are the chemical and biological means of constructing your body, they have nothing to do with your morality. In fact your argument is unbiblical. God always intended to save people from every race. There are no genetic pariahs. God would have been delighted if some Amalekites or Philistines converted and became citizens of Israel. They were not barred by their genes or race, but by their refusal to repent, by their sins.

As for this seed and bloodline theory of yours: It too is unbiblical. The bloodline of Christ WAS corrupt! That’s the point. Christ came to redeem fallen humanity. He would not be stopped by his bloodline. It is error to think some are worse than others. I have no doubt that even the son of a demon would be accepted if he repented. You have a case if you say that because he was the son of a demon, he could not repent. I have no idea. Such discussions are outside the scripture, so I will not comment. But I am not talking about the Nephilim I am talking about the men of the nations that surrounded Israel.

In my view, God wiped out some nations because he had to. It was done reluctantly. These nations would not turn and were simply filling up the pit of hell. God does not take pleasure in wrath. His wrath is simply his reaction to men who refuse to be saved.

Your subject matter and your commit are both sides of a fart... Do you believe in Torah or not? Either way great post to get a debate! Always FUN!!!

 

[Miri]

Just wanted to say that at one point I had a big problem with the story about
Abraham being tested and told to sacrifice Isaac. I could not understand how
God could be so cruel, especially when Isaac was the promised son.

Then one day I came across the following verses.

Jeremiah 19:5 NKJV
[5] (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt
offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind),


Wow I was gob smacked that it never even occurred to God to ask for child sacrifice.
These verses are repeated several times in Jeremiah.

So then I asked God Well what about Abraham!

Then a few years later I had a dream in which a saw a massive gleaming sword.
God showed me Abraham was like that sword honed ready and used by God.

With big works comes big tests! That entire event was mostly about Abraham.
Isaac was just in the shadows. Through Abraham the entire world was to be
blessed, the only other person who could claim that and surpass that was
Jesus!

With big blessings come big tests and God never tests us beyond what we
can endure. In fact I believe God will never set a test that we will not
pass, it’s more to show us what we can do in Christ. God already knows what
we are capable of.

God never ever intended that Isaac would be sacrificed. It was all about
Abraham and God pouring out His blessing on Abraham, so that the world
would be blessed.

It taught me something, when I don’t understand God. Pray about it and leave
your question on the “why shelf”.

God will show you why in due course. Don’t assume God got it wrong or the bible
is wrong. Let God show and teach you. To just assume the bible is incorrect
because you don’t understand, is very dangerous.

What if everyone did that. By what scale would it be measured. Would we
go by a psychopaths scale of right and wrong, a mass murderers scale of
right or wrong. A little old ladies scale of right or wrong. A priests scale of
right or wrong. Do you see what I mean. Whose measure do we go by?

The only real accurate, undefiled, Holy measure we should use is Gods.

 

[Scrobulous]

Try a study on how many times, throughout the old and New Testament,
the Holy Spirit is referred to. Not just by Paul and Timothy.

Timothy was stating the obvious under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
If you don’t think Timothy was stating the truth, then does that mean you don’t
think the Holy Spirit was active, real and living throughout God’s history.

Certainly the holy spirit has been active from the beginning. But so have men and the christian God, unlike the Muslim one, works in cooperation with men. This creates complications. There are true scriptures, false scriptures and scriptures have been adulterated; that is, they are a mix. Some insertions are inspired, some are not.
The blanket assumption that the entire bible is inspired, may be comforting, but like most things, is unlikely to be the whole story.
Look at some of trofimus’s posts and you get an idea.
Fortunately it doesn’t really matter. You can virtually get saved on John 3:16. I love 2 Tim 2:6. Paul’s gospel in one verse. Christ’s message is so simple!
Certainly we are lucky to live in an age where we have the whole bible. That a few lines of it are the work of men doesn’t bother me overmuch.

 

[Scrobulous]

Just wanted to say that at one point I had a big problem with the story about
Abraham being tested and told to sacrifice Isaac. I could not understand how
God could be so cruel, especially when Isaac was the promised son.

Then one day I came across the following verses.

Jeremiah 19:5 NKJV
[5] (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt
offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind),


Wow I was gob smacked that it never even occurred to God to ask for child sacrifice.
These verses are repeated several times in Jeremiah.

So then I asked God Well what about Abraham!

Then a few years later I had a dream in which a saw a massive gleaming sword.
God showed me Abraham was like that sword honed ready and used by God.

With big works comes big tests! That entire event was mostly about Abraham.
Isaac was just in the shadows. Through Abraham the entire world was to be
blessed, the only other person who could claim that and surpass that was
Jesus!

With big blessings come big tests and God never tests us beyond what we
can endure. In fact I believe God will never set a test that we will not
pass, it’s more to show us what we can do in Christ. God already knows what
we are capable of.

God never ever intended that Isaac would be sacrificed. It was all about
Abraham and God pouring out His blessing on Abraham, so that the world
would be blessed.

It taught me something, when I don’t understand God. Pray about it and leave
your question on the “why shelf”.

God will show you why in due course. Don’t assume God got it wrong or the bible
is wrong. Let God show and teach you. To just assume the bible is incorrect
because you don’t understand, is very dangerous.

What if everyone did that. By what scale would it be measured. Would we
go by a psychopaths scale of right and wrong, a mass murderers scale of
right or wrong. A little old ladies scale of right or wrong. A priests scale of
right or wrong. Do you see what I mean. Whose measure do we go by?

The only real accurate, undefiled, Holy measure we should use is Gods.

Very good post!

 

[memyselfi]

Certainly the holy spirit has been active from the beginning. But so have men and the christian God, unlike the Muslim one, works in cooperation with men. This creates complications. There are true scriptures, false scriptures and scriptures have been adulterated; that is, they are a mix. Some insertions are inspired, some are not.
The blanket assumption that the entire bible is inspired, may be comforting, but like most things, is unlikely to be the whole story.
Look at some of trofimus’s posts and you get an idea.
Fortunately it doesn’t really matter. You can virtually get saved on John 3:16. I love 2 Tim 2:6. Paul’s gospel in one verse. Christ’s message is so simple!
Certainly we are lucky to live in an age where we have the whole bible. That a few lines of it are the work of men doesn’t bother me overmuch.

How do you decide which Scriptures are of man and of G-d? How do you know you are not believing in a fictitious story about Jesus?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Every bit? How can every bit be inspired when we do not know how whole chapters or books should be? LXX vs MT, majority vs critical text etc. Not to mention mess with the OT canon.

Every bit of which Bible? Of the first church? Peshitta? Of Old Slavonic? Of Vulgate? Or your own Bible only?

We believe in God.

I would think it would be a fool's errand to try to find which verses are inspired and which are not, which in turn, invalidates the word of God, my friend.