Daniel 9:27 blunder...

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Mar 15, 2013
1,245
14
0
#81
The true church of Christ has never been that which we see with our flesh eyes, anymore than the true Israel was ever that which was seen with flesh eyes: Romans 9:6 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#82


King Herod built the three heavily fortified towers of the citadel upon a location that was already a very fortified position since the days of Solomon. Jerusalem's citadel was the highest point of the city about 2500 feet above sea level. Herod built the citadel and towers to protect the western side of the city of Jerusalem and his marvelous palace. These were fantastic towers, the largest was the Phasael Tower but the most beautiful was his Mariamne Tower.

The Phasael Tower
1. Phasael Tower (the largest, named after his brother stood 145 feet high).

The Hippicus Tower
2. Hippicus Tower (named after a friend, and was 132 feet high)

The Mariamme Tower
3. Mariamme Tower (named after his beloved Hasmonean wife whom he had murdered. Josephus said "the king considering it appropriate that the tower named after a woman should surpass in decoration those called after men." It stood 74 feet high).

When Titus destroyed most of Jerusalem in 70 AD., he spared Herod's fortress.

Nothing remains of Herod's three towers and a Citadel named "David's Tower" stands on the spot of a Phasael’s Tower.

Herod’s Three Towers - First Century Jerusalem - Bible History Online < click



oopsie.
busted.
 
B

Bistabuster

Guest
#83
Where did you get that from brother Ellie scoffers website?

Just wondering
He doesn't have to tell me everything. I think things through.
 
B

Bistabuster

Guest
#85
I awoke this morning to the smell of roasting brain cells. :)

Zone is correct that it was all fulfilled back there on first century Jerusalem, ya know.

I might dispute a tad of her details but certainly not that.

It had to be fulfilled on the shadow else the shadow would not have been complete for us.

And this is not some movie theme I'm pushing such as in, "Only the shadow knows."

But in this case it happens to be true. :)
Dispute for that is wrong.

If you agree with zone, tell me how you worked out Dan 12:11. Give me full details about that one. Where it started or will start and everything else in that verse. I really want to know this logic.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#86
Dispute for that is wrong.

If you agree with zone, tell me how you worked out Dan 12:11. Give me full details about that one. Where it started or will start and everything else in that verse. I really want to know this logic.
i'll tell you how i did it:

get the bible, open it to Daniel.

read it in its historical context, no eisegesis.
match what you see with historical records from the time and parallel passages in scripture.

it's all about what will happen (in the entire region) both while they are in captivity; and when they go home and rebuild....and after - TITUS.

11 covers the The Persians and Greeks, The Seleucid/Ptolemaic stuff; Antiochus Epiphanes; Mattathias (one side with Antiochus, the other against)...tons more fighting and jostling for power.....tons of abominations and desolations.....then Herod; Caesar and ending with Herod.

chapter 9 covers the same period, but doesnt deal with those other guys (except possibly herod).

9 deals with JESUS (and mentions the romans, though attached as the instrument of judgment - with Titus - though not named), that part not included in the 70 weeks.


chapter 12 covers another aspect of the very same period.

Daniel 12:1
"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

everything in 12 is still within the Time of Christ up to and slightly beyond 70AD.

we were already told back here it was about ISRAEL ONLY; their transgression; release and return in time for Jesus:

Daniel 10:14
Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

the latter days is the last days of the Israelitish nation; the temple system; the end of the Old Covenant.

Hebrews 1
1In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
 
Last edited:
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#87
my previous post in this thread relates to that...

'abomination that causes desolation' does not appear to be the most natural translation of the hebrew text in daniel 9:27...the more natural translation would be something like 'for the overspreading of abominations he will make it desolate'

so when jesus mentions the 'abomination that causes desolation' he is probably referring only to daniel 11:31 and daniel 12:11...not daniel 9:27 which is evidently about something else entirely...
you have to look at the hebrew. not at an english bible. I have looked up the hebrew in daniel 9 many times. the literal meaning is an abomination (an unclean thing in the holy place) which causes desolation (makes desolate or unusable).

I got busy last night. But when I get home, I will post the hebrew words. to show where this comes from.
 
Mar 15, 2013
1,245
14
0
#88
Dispute for that is wrong.

If you agree with zone, tell me how you worked out Dan 12:11. Give me full details about that one. Where it started or will start and everything else in that verse. I really want to know this logic.
Daniel 12:10 "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."

That was the anti-typical foreshadow (which everything to do with that old smaller pictorial kosmos or orderly arrangement {which gets translated as "world"} dominated by Jerusalem, was as an anti-type picturing the whole kosmos or orderly arrangement or world which would come to be in our day, dominated by Christendom).

Even Rome gave way to Jerusalem's whining and treated her as a special woman, pampering her in ways greater than other cities it had brought into it's realm. Similarly, today Christendom is subjugated to the political power of this world and whom she also often impresses her influence upon to manipulate and where possible receive special privilege. And she feels justified to do that because just as first century Jerusalem she thinks her way is God's way and that this is what God wants her to do.

Back there in that anti-type, Christ brought an end to sacrifice and offering with his death. But that Jewish system remained without God's blessing of it or it's mother city Jerusalem for the next approximately three and one half years, which then left Jerusalem subject completely to the will of those kings of the earth she had formerly dominated with her manipulations and thus committed fornication with, even manipulating Rome to kill Jesus Christ for her.

Even after the day of Pentecost some three and one half years later God's blessing was not returned to her but only to a remnant of her people whom up to that time God had been using the twelve Apostles of the Lamb to make ready for that day prophesied by Joel.

Pentecost of 33 CE did not fully yet bring in the church for all, as Peter yet had one key left to use of those keys to the kingdom which were given him. And that final key Peter used when he declared the Gentiles clean so that the remnant among them could now could be brought into the Christ's church.

But it did not end there for the remnant who were called to the church. They yet had to endure to the end because of the severe persecution which that Jewish system (believing itself justified of God in doing so) would heap upon them.

Admittedly I have just given a brief summary here. I will try to gather more detail for you. But this framework holds true. And today you should be able to discern the parallel from the identities I have given thus far and what those actors did. It is all what is described at Revelation chapter 11. The flesh persecuting those of the spirit.

Galatians 4:29 "But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now."

And this will run a third time that 3 times will draw it to completion.
 
Mar 15, 2013
1,245
14
0
#89
In our day the "from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days" references the successful appearance of having slain the two witnesses in her (the great city's) streets.

Revelation 11:9-10 "And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth."

The ones of the flesh that have that zeal that they know God, just as did first century Jerusalem, figuratively slay the true body of Christ in this earth. But they cannot keep that body down and as Christ rose again, it does also. The 3 and one half days are multiplied by one thousand even as the application of what was pictured as the kosmos has gotten larger.
 
Mar 15, 2013
1,245
14
0
#90
Luke 22:37 "For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end."

And so also his spiritual body.

Mark 10:38 "But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?"

2 Corinthians 4:12 "So then death worketh in us, but life in you."
 
B

Bistabuster

Guest
#91
Daniel 12:10 "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."

That was the anti-typical foreshadow (which everything to do with that old smaller pictorial kosmos or orderly arrangement {which gets translated as "world"} dominated by Jerusalem, was as an anti-type picturing the whole kosmos or orderly arrangement or world which would come to be in our day, dominated by Christendom).

Even Rome gave way to Jerusalem's whining and treated her as a special woman, pampering her in ways greater than other cities it had brought into it's realm. Similarly, today Christendom is subjugated to the political power of this world and whom she also often impresses her influence upon to manipulate and where possible receive special privilege. And she feels justified to do that because just as first century Jerusalem she thinks her way is God's way and that this is what God wants her to do.

Back there in that anti-type, Christ brought an end to sacrifice and offering with his death. But that Jewish system remained without God's blessing of it or it's mother city Jerusalem for the next approximately three and one half years, which then left Jerusalem subject completely to the will of those kings of the earth she had formerly dominated with her manipulations and thus committed fornication with, even manipulating Rome to kill Jesus Christ for her.

Even after the day of Pentecost some three and one half years later God's blessing was not returned to her but only to a remnant of her people whom up to that time God had been using the twelve Apostles of the Lamb to make ready for that day prophesied by Joel.

Pentecost of 33 CE did not fully yet bring in the church for all, as Peter yet had one key left to use of those keys to the kingdom which were given him. And that final key Peter used when he declared the Gentiles clean so that the remnant among them could now could be brought into the Christ's church.

But it did not end there for the remnant who were called to the church. They yet had to endure to the end because of the severe persecution which that Jewish system (believing itself justified of God in doing so) would heap upon them.

Admittedly I have just given a brief summary here. I will try to gather more detail for you. But this framework holds true. And today you should be able to discern the parallel from the identities I have given thus far and what those actors did. It is all what is described at Revelation chapter 11. The flesh persecuting those of the spirit.

Galatians 4:29 "But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now."

And this will run a third time that 3 times will draw it to completion.
Thanks for the reply!

However, I have more details about the rest of Dan 12. I'll compile it together and send it to you to look at and ponder over.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#92
In our day the "from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days" references the successful appearance of having slain the two witnesses in her (the great city's) streets.

Revelation 11:9-10 "And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth."

The ones of the flesh that have that zeal that they know God, just as did first century Jerusalem, figuratively slay the true body of Christ in this earth. But they cannot keep that body down and as Christ rose again, it does also. The 3 and one half days are multiplied by one thousand even as the application of what was pictured as the kosmos has gotten larger.
this sort of spiritualizing and allegorizing actual prophecies fulfilled can go on forever and be embellished by whoever is speaking.

shouldn't your claims of a global spiritual recapitualtion of all that be SEEN in the Word?

where is it?

choose any of those passages....then if you can, show The Spirit's intent to globalize it and make it about the Christian church.
please use scripture.
 
Mar 15, 2013
1,245
14
0
#95
Isaiah 60:20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.
21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.
22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.

I said as the thing pictured grows so the numbers grow.

This must be spiritually discerned but is known that for many it will not be.

1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
 
Last edited:
Mar 15, 2013
1,245
14
0
#96
The result of many not being able to spiritually discern these things is: Revelation 11:8 "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#97
Isaiah 60:20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.
21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.
22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.
I said as the thing pictured grows so the numbers grow.

This must be spiritually discerned but is known that for many it will not be.

1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
right. you can't give anybody eyes to see it because you're not reading it from scripture.
you're giving me your opinion.

Isaiah 60 isn't really referring to this - right?:

Revelation 21
The New Heaven and the New Earth
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling placea of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people,b and God himself will be with them as their God.c 4He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

5And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

The New Jerusalem
9Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, 11having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed— 13on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. 14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15And the one who spoke with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls. 16The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia.d Its length and width and height are equal. 17He also measured its wall, 144 cubitse by human measurement, which is also an angel’s measurement. 18The wall was built of jasper, while the city was pure gold, clear as glass. 19The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every kind of jewel. The first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, 20the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst. 21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls, each of the gates made of a single pearl, and the street of the city was pure gold, transparent as glass.

22And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. 23And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, 25and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. 26They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. 27But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.


or is eternity all allegory now too?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#98
The result of many not being able to spiritually discern these things is: Revelation 11:8 "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."
that great city was Jerusalem.
literal real old Jerusalem.
 
Mar 15, 2013
1,245
14
0
#99
that great city was Jerusalem.
literal real old Jerusalem.
At that time you are correct.

Even as God set her up over a Law Covenant of shadows, she was a shadow, clear to her end.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
At that time you are correct.

Even as God set her up over a Law Covenant of shadows, she was a shadow, clear to her end.
so how do you allegorize dead bodies lying in the streets of that great city - the city where The Lord was crucified?