Daniel 9 Teaches Christ not Ant-iChrist

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L

Laodicea

Guest
#1
#1
Notice in the following chart that the description alternates between the city and people on the one hand and Messiah the Prince on the other:

City and People

“Restore and build Jerusalem” (457 BC)

“seven weeks”

“the street shall be built again, and the
wall, even in troublous times”

“the people of the Prince that shall come
shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
and the end thereof shall be with a flood”

Messiah the Prince

“Messiah the Prince”

“threescore and two Weeks”

“after threescore and two weeks shall
Messiah be cut off”

“He [the Prince] shall confirm the
covenant with many for one week: and
in the midst of the week he shall cause
the sacrifice and the oblation to cease”
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#2
#2
I agree with you, but there are translation difficulties.
Look at how different translations
 
jonathanbchristian

jonathanbchristian

Banned
#3
Feb 16, 2011
2,957
24
0
#3
We know the nations come against Israel and that the Beast controls the nations. Why would the Bible talk about the remnent who are saved if Jesus is the one destroying Jerusalem?
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#4
#4
1still_waters said:
I agree with you, but there are translation difficulties.
Look at how different translations
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Yes that is true so we need to read the context, we should read Daniel 9 as a whole not as individual verses.
 
H

Houly

Guest
#5
#5
Have you considered that in the KJV, the two princes in Daniel 9:25 and 9:26 are two different people? The first is "the Prince," definitely referring to Jesus Christ. The second is "the people of the prince that shall come."

The second prince (lowercase) is definitely not Jesus Christ. His people did not destroy the city in 70AD; that was the pagan Romans.
 
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L

Laodicea

Guest
#6
#6
First let us look at Daniel 9 as a whole. Daniel is praying about the 70 years of Jeremiah and the angel tells Daniel of a 70 week prophecy. How are the two connected? How does the 70 week prophecy answer Daniel's prayer of the 70 years of Jeremiah?
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#7
#7
the rules of grammar and specifically pronoun antecedents are vital for properly understanding who is who in daniel 9...
 
D

danschance

Guest
#8
#8
Laodicea said:
First let us look at Daniel 9 as a whole. Daniel is praying about the 70 years of Jeremiah and the angel tells Daniel of a 70 week prophecy. How are the two connected? How does the 70 week prophecy answer Daniel's prayer of the 70 years of Jeremiah?
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You are running thru the bible connecting dots together that have no business being connected. I am starting to think that the sabbath is your idol.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#9
#9
danschance said:
You are running thru the bible connecting dots together that have no business being connected. I am starting to think that the sabbath is your idol.
Click to expand...
You must love my posts, you seem to follow me around? You must think of the sabbath every time you see my user name, because I have not even mentioned the sabbath in this topic and you bring it up.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#10
#10
Daniel 9 has two lots of 490 years. The 70 years of Jeremiah represent 490 years

2 Chronicles 36:21 KJV
(21) To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.

So each year of Jeremiah's 70 years is a sabbath year, so then 70 x 7 = 490 years. The 70 week prophecy at the end of the chapter also has 70 x 7 = 490 years by applying the year/day principle. Since they are both 490 years then there is a connection and we can see what the chapter as a whole is talking about.
 
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J

john832

Senior Member
#11
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
#11
Houly said:
Have you considered that in the KJV, the two princes in Daniel 9:25 and 9:26 are two different people? The first is "the Prince," definitely referring to Jesus Christ. The second is "the people of the prince that shall come."

The second prince (lowercase) is definitely not Jesus Christ. His people did not destroy the city in 70AD; that was the pagan Romans.
Click to expand...
You are absolutely correct here.
 
J

john832

Senior Member
#12
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
#12
danschance said:
You are running thru the bible connecting dots together that have no business being connected. I am starting to think that the sabbath is your idol.
Click to expand...
I am beginning to think you are obsessed with destroying the Sabbath.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#13
#13
Laodicea said:
Notice in the following chart that the description alternates between the city and people on the one hand and Messiah the Prince on the other:

City and People

“Restore and build Jerusalem” (457 BC)

“seven weeks”

“the street shall be built again, and the
wall, even in troublous times”

“the people of the Prince that shall come
shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
and the end thereof shall be with a flood”

Messiah the Prince
Click to expand...
Messiah did not destroy the city Rome did.
Messiah was not the prince of rome.
The roman army were NOT his people

This enough should shed some light on problems at least I have with this interpretation

“Messiah the Prince”
Click to expand...
“threescore and two Weeks”

“after threescore and two weeks shall
Messiah be cut off”
Click to expand...
Where is this in dan 9? Dan 9 says after 62 weeks messiah shall be cut off. This would be 69 weeks from the command to restore the city. Or exactly the time Christ entered jerusalem and was Cut Off (crucified)

“He [the Prince] shall confirm the
Click to expand...
covenant with many for one week: and
in the midst of the week he shall cause
the sacrifice and the oblation to cease”
Click to expand...
Sacrifice continued until AD 70. In fact, Isreal is contemplating a way to sacrifice again, if they already have not..Just more reasons to not believe this interpretation
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#14
#14
I think to understand Daniel 9 you have to understand the background of why Jeremiah had to prophecies to begin with. How Israel rebelled and chased after idols.

In the beginning of the chapter we have these verses:

Daniel 9

[SUP]2 [/SUP]in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, understood by the books the number of the years specified by the word of the Lord through Jeremiah the prophet, that He would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.
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What is desolation? why was Jerusalem and Israel being punished?

To answer these questions we have to look in previous books of the OT.

I think a good idea to try and understand the passage better is to first read Jeremiah and what he has to say about the seventy years of desolation:

Jeremiah 25
[h=3]Jeremiah 25[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[h=3]Seventy Years of Desolation[/h]25 The word that came to Jeremiah concerning all the people of Judah, in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah (which was the first year of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon), [SUP]2 [/SUP]which Jeremiah the prophet spoke to all the people of Judah and to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying: [SUP]3 [/SUP]“From the thirteenth year of Josiah the son of Amon, king of Judah, even to this day, this is the twenty-third year in which the word of the Lord has come to me; and I have spoken to you, rising early and speaking, but you have not listened. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And the Lord has sent to you all His servants the prophets, rising early and sending them, but you have not listened nor inclined your ear to hear. [SUP]5 [/SUP]They said, ‘Repent now everyone of his evil way and his evil doings, and dwell in the land that the Lord has given to you and your fathers forever and ever. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Do not go after other gods to serve them and worship them, and do not provoke Me to anger with the works of your hands; and I will not harm you.’ [SUP]7 [/SUP]Yet you have not listened to Me,” says the Lord, “that you might provoke Me to anger with the works of your hands to your own hurt.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]“Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts: ‘Because you have not heard My words, [SUP]9 [/SUP]behold, I will send and take all the families of the north,’ says the Lord, ‘and Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, My servant, and will bring them against this land, against its inhabitants, and against these nations all around, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, a hissing, and perpetual desolations. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones and the light of the lamp. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And this whole land shall be a desolation and an astonishment, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]‘Then it will come to pass, when seventy years are completed, that I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity,’ says the Lord; ‘and I will make it a perpetual desolation.
Click to expand...
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#15
#15
Laodicea said:
First let us look at Daniel 9 as a whole. Daniel is praying about the 70 years of Jeremiah and the angel tells Daniel of a 70 week prophecy. How are the two connected? How does the 70 week prophecy answer Daniel's prayer of the 70 years of Jeremiah?
Click to expand...
Yes!

Daniel knew the 70 weeks of sabbath rest for the land was coming up. Yet he also knew his people were still in sin and had not repented. Thus he was praying for HIS people and HIS city. Which is the context of the passage.

Daniel was praying for Isreal and Jerusalem and for them to repent. NOT for the salvation of the world.

So any interpretation which goes away from this would be taking daniels prayer and the answer to it out of context.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#16
#16
danschance said:
You are running thru the bible connecting dots together that have no business being connected. I am starting to think that the sabbath is your idol.
Click to expand...
No he is correct. Isreal (specifically Judah) was being punished for 70 years because they did not follow the sabbath year. God said if they did not, he would punish them 70 years and give the land rest.

Lev 26:
[SUP]32 [/SUP]I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.

[SUP]33 [/SUP]I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you;
your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.

[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate and you are in your enemies’ land;
then the land shall rest and enjoy its sabbaths.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]As long as it lies desolate it shall rest—
for the time it did not rest on your sabbaths when you dwelt in it.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#17
#17
so we know in Daniel that he is serving under Nebuchadnezzar king of the Babylon. we understand this from Daniel 1.

Daniel 1
[h=3][/h]1 In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with some of the articles of the house of God, which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the articles into the treasure house of his god




[SUP]6 [/SUP]Now from among those of the sons of Judah were Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah.
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why don't we know Daniel's friends by their Hebrew names instead of their Babylonian ones (he gave Daniel the name Belteshazzar; to Hananiah, Shadrach; to Mishael, Meshach; and to Azariah, Abed-Nego.)? <sorry side thought>

[/quote]

Why were they being punished?

because they would not listen to God's prophets and made idols and worshiped other gods. Jeremiah 25: 5-7

Their punishment?

Nebuchadnezzar will "utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, a hissing, and perpetual desolations" verses 9

this is parallel with these verses.....


2 Kings 24:10 At that time the servants of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up against Jerusalem, and the city was besieged.

1 Chronicles 9:1 So all Israel was recorded by genealogies, and indeed, they were inscribed in the book of the kings of Israel. But Judah was carried away captive to Babylon because of their unfaithfulness.

so Daniel in the beginning of Chapter 9 is trying to find out when God would forgive them and Babylon would be punished.

so we begin with God's answer.......
 
R

reject-tech

Guest
#18
#18
Messiah the Prince, and the people of the prince are being used there to show today's mistaken view of Jesus.
Messiah without the word prince is being used there to show the real Jesus.

We are Israel and Judah are our false teachers.
Jerusalem is how we live in love and peace, whether correctly or falsely.
The street is our method of preaching, and the wall is our barrier, whether correct or false.

The first part of the chapter is crucial to the vision.

O Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face
>because we have sinned<
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#19
#19
eternally-gratefull said:
No he is correct. Isreal (specifically Judah) was being punished for 70 years because they did not follow the sabbath year. God said if they did not, he would punish them 70 years and give the land rest.

Lev 26:
[SUP]32 [/SUP]I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.

[SUP]33 [/SUP]I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you;
your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.

[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate and you are in your enemies’ land;
then the land shall rest and enjoy its sabbaths.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]As long as it lies desolate it shall rest—
for the time it did not rest on your sabbaths when you dwelt in it.
Click to expand...
Thanks EG, this guy danschance follows me around everywhere on CC telling me I am wrong in everything. Yes this is correct about Jeremiahs 70 years
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#20
#20
Ariel82 said:
so we know in Daniel that he is serving under Nebuchadnezzar king of the Babylon. we understand this from Daniel 1.



why don't we know Daniel's friends by their Hebrew names instead of their Babylonian ones (he gave Daniel the name Belteshazzar; to Hananiah, Shadrach; to Mishael, Meshach; and to Azariah, Abed-Nego.)? <sorry side thought>



Why were they being punished?

because they would not listen to God's prophets and made idols and worshiped other gods. Jeremiah 25: 5-7

Their punishment?

Nebuchadnezzar will "utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, a hissing, and perpetual desolations" verses 9

this is parallel with these verses.....


2 Kings 24:10 At that time the servants of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up against Jerusalem, and the city was besieged.

1 Chronicles 9:1 So all Israel was recorded by genealogies, and indeed, they were inscribed in the book of the kings of Israel. But Judah was carried away captive to Babylon because of their unfaithfulness.

so Daniel in the beginning of Chapter 9 is trying to find out when God would forgive them and Babylon would be punished.

so we begin with God's answer.......
Click to expand...
Yes Jerusalem was destroyed by Babylon because of the sins of Israel. God warned them and God allowed it to be destroyed.
Jeremiah 38:23 KJV
(23) So they shall bring out all thy wives and thy children to the Chaldeans: and thou shalt not escape out of their hand, but shalt be taken by the hand of the king of Babylon: and thou shalt cause this city to be burned with fire.

The king of Judah did not burn the city but by his actions in going against God it was destroyed. We have already seen a connection with the 70 year prophecy of Jeremiah and the 70 week prophecy that both are talking about 490 years.

So because God allowed Jerusalem to be destroyed by Babylon because of their sins does that mean Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD because of the sins of Israel in rejecting Christ?
 
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