Daniel is out of chronological order.

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A

Abiding

Guest
#21
I know i know....i took the times its out of order then times it by the number of languages
then i took the equidistant numbers sequence between the sum and divided by 3.17 and came to: 3rd Temple 2013/Iran poof!:p
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#22
i know why it's nonsense.
all been "well thought-out"

nothing to debate.
ellis needs this unbiblical assertion to make is other stuff work.

not explaining anything to you, though?
OIC, you just wanted to make it known it was nonsense. I can live with that...
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#23
So what is a chiasm?
First half of a particular book stating events in a certain order and the other half stating those events in reverse order with a different meaning?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#24
Exactly! Now let's go back a bit and look at when two specific prophets were placed in time and why. The first, Hosea. When Israel was about to fall to the Assyrians 725-721 B.C., God commanded Hosea to prophesying to the northern kingdom what their future would be after they were dispersed into Gentile lands, specifically into the Caucasus Mountains region. His prophecy continues to be fulfilled unto this day.

The second, Daniel, Was placed when he was for exactly the same reason. The Jews were taken captive to Babylon in 606 B.C. where they remained in captivity for 70 years just as Jeremiah had prophesied, until 536 B.C. But Daniel is split in two, so he has a dual message: Chapters 2 through 7 are about the four major Gentile empires (and their descendents) who will have dominion over the holy land during "the time of the Gentiles." Chapters 8 through 12 are to the Jews, and about their coming Messiah and their future during that same "time of the Gentiles."

But both halfs are chiasms, a well-known and universally accepted Hebrew poetic form that's the key to properly interpreting both Daniel and Revelation.

So what is a chiasm?
this would not even be right. Ch 8 is about two of the 4 kingdoms.

chapter 9 is out of order. is is just a response to daniels plea for his people and city

chapter 10 is again about persia and greece

ch two gives us a basic vision of the 4 kingdoms. Chapter seven gives us a greater vision of the same four

Chapter 8 and 10 gives us a deeper vision of the middle two etc.

so I am not sure what your getting at.
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#25
I was looking around the internet and came across this chiasm, for what it is worth:

A ch 1 The Captivity of Judah: Historical Events Connected with its Beginning.
B ch 2 The Dream of Nebuchadnezzar: The Beginning and Duration of Gentile Dominion.
C ch 3 Daniel’s Companions: The “Fiery Furnace”. Angelic Deliverance.
D ch 4 The First King of Babylon: Nebuchadnezzar’s Dream of the “Great Tree”.
D ch 5 The Last King of Babylon: Belshazzar’s Vision of the “Hand”.
C ch 6 Daniel Himself: The “Den of Lions”. Angelic Deliverance.
B ch 7&8 The Dream and Vision of Daniel: The End of Gentile Dominion.
A ch 9-12 The Desolations of Jerusalem: Prophetic Announcements Connected with their End.
 
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Therapon

Guest
#27
this would not even be right.
You are trying to marry the Hebrew passages in Daniel to the Chaldee passages, that's like trying to mate horses to cows.

Two different messages to two different peoples, remember? The book is in two languages, remember? The division in Daniel is between chapters 7 and Chapter 8. So the Hebrew is a chiasm and the Chaldee is a chiasm. To try to make a single chiasm from the two languages is faulty exegesis and I don't care who says differently. The importance of the language difference and the audience difference cannot be overestimated! Chapter 1 is only the introduction and not part of the prophetic message.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#28
You are trying to marry the Hebrew passages in Daniel to the Chaldee passages, that's like trying to mate horses to cows.
lol.. The same events spoken to two different people is not marrying anything.

Two different messages to two different peoples, remember?
No, the SAME message to two different people. written as to how it affects them

The book is in two languages, remember? The division in Daniel is between chapters 7 and Chapter 8. So the Hebrew is a chiasm and the Chaldee is a chiasm. To try to make a single chiasm from the two languages is faulty exegesis and I don't care who says differently. The importance of the language difference and the audience difference cannot be overestimated! Chapter 1 is only the introduction and not part of the prophetic message.
We do not force the word to fit our belief, we force our belief to fit the word.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#29
one does hope you'll reconcile your two audiences thesis with the Aramaic portions of Ezra and Nehemiah, also.

............................


The language of Ezra-Nehemiah is late biblical Hebrew (Polzin) and the text exhibits features which are characteristic of this later language. These include use of the -ו consecutive with the cohortative (וָאֶשְׁלְחָה), increased use of pronominal suffixes to the verb (וַיִּתְּנֵם) and of הָיָה with the participle (אֹמְרִיםהָיוּ), many Akkadian and Persian loan words (such as אִגֶּרֶת "letter" = Akk. egirtu; פַּרְדֵּס "garden" = Pers. pairidaeza), and many Aramaisms (Naveh and Greenfield). Parts of Ezra are written in Aramaic (4:8–6:18, 7:11–26), and it has been suggested that originally the entire book of Ezra-Nehemiah was written in Aramaic and was subsequently translated (Marcus). In support of this theory is the fact that there is no extant Targum for Ezra-Nehemiah.

Ezra and Nehemiah, Books of < click

http://arshama.classics.ox.ac.uk/downloads/Aramaic Texts 00 (Ezra).pdf < click


DANIEL, BOOK OF

In the book as it is now known, 1:1–2:4a and chapters 8–12 are Hebrew, the rest *Aramaic. Originally, it was entirely Aramaic. The popular story book Daniel A was composed in Aramaic because by the third century B.C.E. it was the language of the majority of Jews; and Daniel B, being a continuation of Daniel A, was written in the same language. That the Hebrew portions have a strong Aramaic tinge would not suffice by itself to prove that it was translated from Aramaic, but the occurrence of passages which can only be understood as translations of misread Aramaic does constitute such proof. A simple example is 12:8: "I heard but I did not understand, so I said: 'My Lord, what is the אַחֲרִית of all these things?'" The Hebrew word means "end," but "end" is pointless here. What Daniel wanted was the explanation of what he had heard. A glance at 5:12 suggests that behind אַחֲרִית is an Aramaic אַחֲוָיַת, "the explanation of," which had become corrupted to אַחֲרִית, or which the translator misread as אַחֲרִית (for further examples, see Ginsberg, in JBL, 68 (1949), 402–7).

jewish virtual library
Daniel, Book of < click
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#30
I guess any argument can be said as to why Daniel was written in two languages. I guess it comes down to what one thinks the purpose was:

Q.
Was the book of Daniel originally written in two languages? If so, do they correspond to God’s dealings with the Jews, and The Gentile world?

A.Yes.The Book of Daniel was originally written in two languages. From the beginning of the book to Chapter 2 verse 3 it was written in Hebrew.In verse 4 Daniel switched to Aramaic, the language of the Babylonians, and remained so through the end of chapter 7. This corresponds with the portion of the book dealing primarily with Gentile Dominion. Beginning in chapter 8, the rest of the book is in Hebrew again, since the focus of the last 5 chapters is primarily on Israel.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#31
I guess any argument can be said as to why Daniel was written in two languages. I guess it comes down to what one thinks the purpose was:

Q.
Was the book of Daniel originally written in two languages? If so, do they correspond to God’s dealings with the Jews, and The Gentile world?

A.Yes.The Book of Daniel was originally written in two languages. From the beginning of the book to Chapter 2 verse 3 it was written in Hebrew.In verse 4 Daniel switched to Aramaic, the language of the Babylonians, and remained so through the end of chapter 7. This corresponds with the portion of the book dealing primarily with Gentile Dominion. Beginning in chapter 8, the rest of the book is in Hebrew again, since the focus of the last 5 chapters is primarily on Israel.
amen, which brings us back to the audience of who it was written to and for. and the context which should be taken into account when interpreting said passage.
 
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Therapon

Guest
#32
We do not force the word to fit our belief, we force our belief to fit the word.
LOL, that's gotta be a joke. If I prove the Chaldee three-step chiasm is not an invention of man, but of God, will you believe it? No lengthy rebuttal necessary, a simple yes or no will do.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,137
216
63
#33
2 Peter 3

11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
This stood out to me the other day.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,137
216
63
#34
Isaiah 65

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.18But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.19And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.20There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.21And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.22They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.23They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.24And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
Revelation 21

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
 
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Therapon

Guest
#35
one does hope you'll reconcile your two audiences thesis with the Aramaic portions of Ezra and Nehemiah, also.

The language of Ezra-Nehemiah is late biblical Hebrew (Polzin) and the text exhibits features which are characteristic of this later language. These include use of the -ו consecutive with the cohortative (וָאֶשְׁלְחָה), increased use of pronominal suffixes to the verb (וַיִּתְּנֵם) and of הָיָה with the participle (אֹמְרִיםהָיוּ), many Akkadian and Persian loan words (such as אִגֶּרֶת "letter" = Akk. egirtu; פַּרְדֵּס "garden" = Pers. pairidaeza), and many Aramaisms (Naveh and Greenfield). Parts of Ezra are written in Aramaic (4:8–6:18, 7:11–26), and it has been suggested that originally the entire book of Ezra-Nehemiah was written in Aramaic and was subsequently translated (Marcus). In support of this theory is the fact that there is no extant Targum for Ezra-Nehemiah.
From the liberal scholars you quote, it is obvious that you don't really trust God's Word, and don't believe that He is powerful enough to preserve it in the languages He intended.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#36
LOL, that's gotta be a joke. If I prove the Chaldee three-step chiasm is not an invention of man, but of God, will you believe it? No lengthy rebuttal necessary, a simple yes or no will do.
go ahead and prove it ellis.
in the same post, if you will, post your theory on the significance of it.

i've already looked at what you did with these chiasms; how you did it...and what you left out, and what you inferred (hoping once again your readers would be wowed by the magic trick).

you post first, then i'll post.
may the most truthful person prevail.
zone.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#37
From the liberal scholars you quote, it is obvious that you don't really trust God's Word, and don't believe that He is powerful enough to preserve it in the languages He intended.
the jewish linguists assert that Imperial Aramaic was the language of many portions and epochs of the Babylonian Empire.

and that is is found in Ezra, Nehemiah and others of the period. i asked you - are those two prophets/writers addressing two audiences - jew & gentile? or do they not help your thesis?

you have no trouble using jewish linguists in your work...one who takes great liberty in finding something special in the 70th week - making it a plural, rather than singular. a guy no one else agrees with, and nobody can find.

btw: did you address why you inferred the 70th week was plural...when it isn't?
there are other plural forms...whenever the writer is talking about weeks (plural).
so why did you suggest the final was a plural...when it is not.
 
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Therapon

Guest
#38
I guess any argument can be said as to why Daniel was written in two languages. I guess it comes
down to what one thinks the purpose was:

Q.
Was the book of Daniel originally written in two languages? If so, do they correspond to God’s dealings with the Jews, and The Gentile world?

A.Yes.The Book of Daniel was originally written in two languages. From the beginning of the book to Chapter 2 verse 3 it was written in Hebrew.In verse 4 Daniel switched to Aramaic, the language of the Babylonians, and remained so through the end of chapter 7. This corresponds with the portion of the book dealing primarily with Gentile Dominion. Beginning in chapter 8, the rest of the book is in Hebrew again, since the focus of the last 5 chapters is primarily on Israel.
Exactly right!
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#39
I was looking around the internet and came across this chiasm, for what it is worth:

A ch 1 The Captivity of Judah: Historical Events Connected with its Beginning.
B ch 2 The Dream of Nebuchadnezzar: The Beginning and Duration of Gentile Dominion.
C ch 3 Daniel’s Companions: The “Fiery Furnace”. Angelic Deliverance.
D ch 4 The First King of Babylon: Nebuchadnezzar’s Dream of the “Great Tree”.
D ch 5 The Last King of Babylon: Belshazzar’s Vision of the “Hand”.
C ch 6 Daniel Himself: The “Den of Lions”. Angelic Deliverance.
B ch 7&8 The Dream and Vision of Daniel: The End of Gentile Dominion.
A ch 9-12 The Desolations of Jerusalem: Prophetic Announcements Connected with their End.
This one is a little different
Daniel 1–Daniel Exiled

Daniel 2–Nebuchadnezzar’s Vision (Statue representing four kingdoms)

Daniel 3–Deliverance from the Fiery Furnace

Daniel 4–Nebuchadnezzar Humbled (seven years of insanity)

Daniel 5–Belshazzar Humbled (handwriting on the wall)

Daniel 6–Deliverance from the Lion’s Den

Daniel 7-9–Daniel’s Visions (Four kingdoms represented in various ways)

Daniel 10-12–Daniel’s Vision of the End of the Exile
 
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Therapon

Guest
#40
This one is a little different
Daniel 1–Daniel Exiled

Daniel 2–Nebuchadnezzar’s Vision (Statue representing four kingdoms)

Daniel 3–Deliverance from the Fiery Furnace

Daniel 4–Nebuchadnezzar Humbled (seven years of insanity)

Daniel 5–Belshazzar Humbled (handwriting on the wall)

Daniel 6–Deliverance from the Lion’s Den

Daniel 7-9–Daniel’s Visions (Four kingdoms represented in various ways)

Daniel 10-12–Daniel’s Vision of the End of the Exile
If I can biblically prove both the chiasm you propose and the one you quoted to be incorrect, will you believe it if I do?