Dealing with the idea of Hell

[PeterJens]

The reason I do not think Hell is about punishment

Why does Hell exist? Because the worthless, the failed, the empty, the things that have not become what they ought to be, must be destroyed.

Jesus talks about a sinless life, about heaven being a place you would want to go. He paints a picture of eternal success, no more war, pain or suffering, where truth and justice rein. To get there you have to be perfect, but He will help you through transforming you, being born again, having a communion with the Lord in your heart.

Who would claim society shows how people if they lived eternally would create a perfect society and world?
Talk to many when they reach old age, they are broken and just want to get off.

Do you think Hitler or Stalin or any of these evil dictators could see beyond their insane desire for power and the paranoid murdering of those plotting against them?

What point would be eternal torture? How can a mortal be given eternal life to just be punished for something they could not control but were a slave to it? That is not justice.

If you could take away the self suffering of your relatives, knowing you can never make them whole, but you can stop the confusion and lostness, surely you would do that? Humans are a sad case, especially alone without God. So I ask you, if God made you the judge, what would you do? What would you consider justice?

 

[MarcR]

I can't tell you the number of people I have heard say, "You expect me to love a god who tells me that If I don't, then he is going to roast me alive?"

That is a very unloving way to present the Gospel. Some people heat their homes with a wood burning stove. If a mother tells her child that he/she will be burned if he/she touches the stove; she is not being unloving, and she has no desire for the child to be burned. If the child touches the stove, and is burned, the burn is NOT the mother's punishment. The consequence of touching a hot stove is inherent in the act; and the mother is right to warn her child. In the same way, the consequence of sin is hell, If God wanted people to receive that consequence; he would not have taken that consequence upon Himself!
God does not send people to Hell! People send themselves to hell by rejecting God's provision for their sin. All sin is forgiven on the cross! The only thing that sends anyone to hell is rejecting that forgiveness!

 

[PeterJens]

Hell & torture

There are only two places where torture is mentioned
In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
Luke 16 23-24


And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:10

The first is Hades, which is not the lake of fire and lasts till it is destroyed at the final judgement.
The devil, the beast and the false prophet are tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This is the extent of torment.

The rest of the quotes are either nashing of teeth or destruction, which is not eternal life but with torture.

It is therefore not a good doctrine and has been expanded upon for church fear reasons to intimidate, and not be real.

 

[Jason0047]

If Hell and death are pulled up and judged in Revelation 20, right?
I ask, why would God pull up hell, (where some people say the sinners go upon death) re-judge them and cast them back into Hell?
This logic says they ARE ALREADY in Hell at Judgement Day , it also shows they have been technically "judged" upon death.(They are in hell?)
Pretty simple question?

The wicked are in Hell now awaiting Judgment. This is not a torture chamber in flames as I mentioned before, but more like a really bad prison.

The wicked will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment. This is evident by verse 13 in Revelation 20.

Death and Hell will then be cast into the Lake of Fire which is called the Second Death. In other words, the realm of the dead and those who resided there will be cast into the Lake of Fire. I imagine that when the wicked are judge, the Lake of Fire will have risen and cosumed the island known as Hell whereby the wicked will be cast into it (Along with Death). Oh, and by the way.... speaking of death. The Scriptures say the last enemy to be destroyed is death. This means that the other enemies of God will also be destroyed.

Second question......Jesus' soul is not left in the "general abode" of the dead? Hell sits atop the Lake??
Jesus went to hell then?? That's paradise? Where tourtured souls are "around" Him?

IMO,You seem to be improvising as you go along?

Good thing your opinion is not Scripture. There is a verse that suggest that Hell is an island. Also, there are different Greek words and they all have different meanings according to the context.

 

[MarcR]

I think JL has a good point....one day when I was driving to college, I drove past a guy standing right outside the school with a sign that said something like: "accept Jesus or you are going to hell" want to know what I heard from classmates all day long? How that one act turned them off of Christianity...that approach is not the best approach...there is a better way to preach the gospel and approach the topic of hell.
It is all about approach.

Where do we read of Jesus walking the streets with a hateful impersonal sign. Of course that will turn people off; including believers. NOWHERE are we called to do such a thing. The message we are called to bring is: 'Jesus loved you so much that He took your punishment; but be careful because, if you reject His payment for your sins, you need to pay for them yourself.

This message is not to be delivered coldly and impersonally; but personally, in love and honest concern.

 

[Jason0047]

Hell & torture

There are only two places where torture is mentioned
In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
Luke 16 23-24

Who in the real world could be placed into a campfire and held there and then not scream constanly? Do you think that such a person could carry on a normal conversation with you?

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:10

What is the "Ages of Ages" in Revelation 20:10 talking about?

Revelation 20:10 is indeed saying that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for... "the ages of ages." Here are a few translations that express this.
"for the eons of the eons." ~ Concordant Literal New Testament
"for the ages of the ages." ~ Darby Bible Translation.
"for the aeons of the aeons." ~ The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson

In other words, Revelation 20:10 is saying the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for the purpose of the Ages of the Ages. Meaning the Ages of Ages that are past! They are being punished day and night for the evil that they committed during the past Ages and Ages here on this Earth. For the word "for" can also be defined as "because" within the English language.

Revelation 20:10 Darby
"And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for [the purpose of] the ages of ages."

For the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are all demons who have tormented mankind for ages and ages. So they will be cast into the Lake of Fire and brimstone and will be tormented day and night andnot for all eternity.

So the "ages of ages" is talking about "past ages" and not "future ages."

This is further supported by the fact that Paul says the last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Corinthians 15:26), which suggests that there were other enemies of God that the Lord destroyed before this last enemy. This then ties in nicely with Revelation 21:4 saying, "the former things have passed away." These former things that have passed away are: tears, sorrow, crying, death, and pain. For the first heaven and first earth will pass away and a new heaven and a new earth will take it's place (Revelation 21:1). For Jesus says, "I make all things new." (Revelation 21:5).

 

[Jason0047]

For Hell is sort of like an island sitting atop of the Lake of Fire. For the Earth's core is like a big fiery hot ball. The great gulf is an opening or crack in Hell's surface letting some of the flame from below (in the Lake of Fire) to show.

Deuteronomy 32:22
"For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

The lowest Hell is the Lake of Fire. For the English word Hell can be translated as Gehenna in the Greek within the New Testament, which means Lake of Fire.

Isaiah 34:14
"The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest."

The wild beasts, the satyr, and the screech owl in this passage are demons. The wild beasts of the island are those demons on the island of Hell below.

 

[PeterJens]

Are we eternal or mortal animals with a potential for eternity?

We know we are lost, slaves to sin, bound into selfish behaviour. We know unless the Lord reaches out to us nothing will change, and life will be a continual list of reaching out and failing.

Does this picture look to you like a guilty innocent who chose to rebel and walk in sin, or a lost rebel alone and lost without hope of finding their way home?

We feel our guilt so greatly, we feel our worthlessness so hard, but in the end, it destroys us. God did not say eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and you will roast in hell for all eternity, he said you will die.

Jesus said beware of him who can destroy you in hell.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 10:28

But entering heaven is about life and what makes life work, love. Fear is only the starting point of authority and respect, it does not define the essence of a transformed life.

 

[Reborn]

The wicked are in Hell now awaiting Judgment. This is not a torture chamber in flames as I mentioned before, but more like a really bad prison.

The wicked will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment. This is evident by verse 13 in Revelation 20.

Death and Hell will then be cast into the Lake of Fire which is called the Second Death. In other words, the realm of the dead and those who resided there will be cast into the Lake of Fire. I imagine that when the wicked are judge, the Lake of Fire will have risen and cosumed the island known as Hell whereby the wicked will be cast into it (Along with Death). Oh, and by the way.... speaking of death. The Scriptures say the last enemy to be destroyed is death. This means that the other enemies of God will also be destroyed.



Good thing your opinion is not Scripture. There is a verse that suggest that Hell is an island. Also, there are different Greek words and they all have different meanings according to the context.

I say the same about your opinions.
Which 95% of the forum disagree with, btw.

Quick question.....are we all wrong here, then?

You completely missed the point........as always, man.
You're too proud of a man to debate. You resort to childish tactics to prove a point...or what you believe to be a point.
You stir up the thread.....and then you leave once the pot gets hot.

I'd rather debate my kid. Same outcome.

 

[Jason0047]

hmm...never saw it like that..that particular verse pretty much sealed the idea of eternal torment..

Also, the saints will look upon the dead carcases as spoken about in Isaiah 66:24, too. Dead carcases are the remains. For Jesus said, fear not him who can destroy the body, but fear him who can destroy BOTH body and SOUL in Hell (i.e. Gehenna, or the Lake of Fire).

 

[Jason0047]

I say the same about your opinions.
Which 95% of the forum disagree with, btw.

Quick question.....are we all wrong?

You completely missed the point........as always, man.

I prefer the narrow way that leads unto life and not the wide gate. Alot of Christians are wrong in what they believe today.

 

[Jason0047]

Are we eternal or mortal animals with a potential for eternity?

We know we are lost, slaves to sin, bound into selfish behaviour. We know unless the Lord reaches out to us nothing will change, and life will be a continual list of reaching out and failing.

Does this picture look to you like a guilty innocent who chose to rebel and walk in sin, or a lost rebel alone and lost without hope of finding their way home?

We feel our guilt so greatly, we feel our worthlessness so hard, but in the end, it destroys us. God did not say eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and you will roast in hell for all eternity, he said you will die.

Jesus said beware of him who can destroy you in hell.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 10:28

But entering heaven is about life and what makes life work, love. Fear is only the starting point of authority and respect, it does not define the essence of a transformed life.

While this may be true, one still has to learn to know about the consequences of sin and learn to move beyond that. Only a transformed life and God living within a person can help them to move beyond the early steps of their walk with God. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

 

[Tankman131]

I prefer the narrow way that leads unto life and not the wide gate. Alot of Christians are wrong in what they believe today.

The funny thing is, 95% of a christian forum disagrees with you.

The secular world agrees with you.

Who is on the narrow path?

 

[PeterJens]

will be tormented day and night and not for all eternity.

You could be right. For me the point is a simple logical and moral perspective. It is going from religion to real life.
My experience of people is dislocated lives, where nothing makes sense, and sin just happens as a reflex to circumstance, to where people find themselves, totally compromised and with no way out.

I cannot see a reason or justice in sending such people to punishment. One can talk of the lost who have never heared the gospel, to those who only have a rough idea of reality, they too will be judged.

My approach has been to say I do not know the details, but the Lord will judge with justice and truth.
It then occured to me people have no clue about real life, about going for a job interview, meeting the Lord would literally do them in. I have a relative who gets in an anxious state, and nothing makes sense, but she tries to make an enemy out of nothing. Without love, without being born again, nothing holds together, it becomes useless, just moaning, emptiness.

Some have suggested this is a kind of eternity, just lost in confusion. But if nothing works or makes sense, they are not human in our sense of life anymore, so death will be an actual release. Which version you are happy with, is probably up to the individual, the bible is not that clear. I would be happy with destruction, knowing there is no more suffering.

 

[Reborn]

I prefer the narrow way that leads unto life and not the wide gate. Alot of Christians are wrong in what they believe today.

You mean "us"?
So,.... you ARE saying we are all wrong?
You are on the narrow, and we are on the broad?

Please confirm this.

 

[Tankman131]

I say the same about your opinions.
Which 95% of the forum disagree with, btw.

Quick question.....are we all wrong here, then?

You completely missed the point........as always, man.
You're too proud of a man to debate. You resort to childish tactics to prove a point...or what you believe to be a point.
You stir up the thread.....and then you leave once the pot gets hot.

I'd rather debate my kid. Same outcome.

At least your kid isn't likely to twist scripture.

 

[Jason0047]

The funny thing is, 95% of a christian forum disagrees with you.

The secular world agrees with you.

Who is on the narrow path?

Actually, no. Matthew 7 talks about how there are believers who think they know Christ but they are cast out because of their iniquity (sin). Actually the topic of Once Saved Always Saved and Eternal Concious Torment relate to each other. They are both evil doctrines because they both ignore common basic morality. But this is not a surprise. The Scriptures say we would be living in dark times (See 2 Timothy 3:1-9).

As for the secular world: The secular world believes they will die and nothing awaits them. The world does not agree with the Biblical teaching on Dualistic Conditional Immortality. Hell is real. They do not believe in a Hell. Also, the Lake of Fire will destroy them. They do not believe in a Lake of Fire. The Bible says they will be held accountable to God and there will be a Judgment. Also, the Lake of Fire will cause pain for a certain amount of time for the wicked. This is evident in the fact that Jesus said it is better for one to pluck out one's eye.

 

[Tankman131]

You could be right. For me the point is a simple logical and moral perspective. It is going from religion to real life.
My experience of people is dislocated lives, where nothing makes sense, and sin just happens as a reflex to circumstance, to where people find themselves, totally compromised and with no way out.

I cannot see a reason or justice in sending such people to punishment. One can talk of the lost who have never heared the gospel, to those who only have a rough idea of reality, they too will be judged.

My approach has been to say I do not know the details, but the Lord will judge with justice and truth.
It then occured to me people have no clue about real life, about going for a job interview, meeting the Lord would literally do them in. I have a relative who gets in an anxious state, and nothing makes sense, but she tries to make an enemy out of nothing. Without love, without being born again, nothing holds together, it becomes useless, just moaning, emptiness.

Some have suggested this is a kind of eternity, just lost in confusion. But if nothing works or makes sense, they are not human in our sense of life anymore, so death will be an actual release. Which version you are happy with, is probably up to the individual, the bible is not that clear. I would be happy with destruction, knowing there is no more suffering.

Romans 1:18-32
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth [a]in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident [b]within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not [c]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and [d]crawling creatures.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for [e]a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed [f]forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is [g]unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing [h]indecent acts and receiving in [i]their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28 And just as they did not see fit [j]to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they aregossips, 30 slanderers, [k]haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

 

[PeterJens]

While this may be true, one still has to learn to know about the consequences of sin and learn to move beyond that. Only a transformed life and God living within a person can help them to move beyond the early steps of their walk with God. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

I agree with you, we often miss the Lords perspective. If you see most disputes in families, churches, politics, marriages you will soon realise with are only a few rungs above the first steps.

The forum though is a good start, bretheren style christians, to charismatic, to reformed, to catholics. It is good to see the positions and hear the arguments in open without anger or violence. Now that is a miracle of Gods grace.

The first step is discussion, and finding the language. I hope people can get beyond evil spirits into sincerely held beliefs. I certainly can easily fall into this, with some groups and ideas, but if we can be open, then amen, the Lords love will do the rest.

 

[Jason0047]

You could be right. For me the point is a simple logical and moral perspective. It is going from religion to real life.
My experience of people is dislocated lives, where nothing makes sense, and sin just happens as a reflex to circumstance, to where people find themselves, totally compromised and with no way out.

I cannot see a reason or justice in sending such people to punishment. One can talk of the lost who have never heared the gospel, to those who only have a rough idea of reality, they too will be judged.

My approach has been to say I do not know the details, but the Lord will judge with justice and truth.
It then occured to me people have no clue about real life, about going for a job interview, meeting the Lord would literally do them in. I have a relative who gets in an anxious state, and nothing makes sense, but she tries to make an enemy out of nothing. Without love, without being born again, nothing holds together, it becomes useless, just moaning, emptiness.

Some have suggested this is a kind of eternity, just lost in confusion. But if nothing works or makes sense, they are not human in our sense of life anymore, so death will be an actual release. Which version you are happy with, is probably up to the individual, the bible is not that clear. I would be happy with destruction, knowing there is no more suffering.

I used to hold to the view that I.... honestly did not know, too. I was on the fence on Eternal Concious Torment and Conditional Immortality for a long while. That is until I did some digging and understood the Conditional Immortality view with Scripture.