Death or Not Death

[Magenta]

HADES

Hades in Greek, as sheol in Hebrew, is the general term for the place of the dead. The Greek had another word for "grave" used specifically. This was mnemeion, as in --

• "Jesus therefore cometh to the grave -- mnemeion" (John 11:38).
  
  "The graves -- mnemeion -- were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose" (Matt. 27:52).

Hades appears 11 times in the New Testament, and is always translated "hell" except 1 Cor. 15:55, where it is "grave." This is a quotation from Hos. 13:14, where the original is sheol. Acts 2:29-31, where hades is used, is also a quotation from the Old Testament (Psa. 16:10) where the original is sheol.

So it is definitely established that the Holy Spirit uses the word hades as an equivalent for sheol. And the Septuagint (Greek translation of Old Testament) uses the word hades throughout for sheol. So whatever sheol means, so we are to understand hades.

Hades in Greek, has just the same primary meaning as sheol in Hebrew and "hell" in English. It is derived, according to the lexicons, from eidon, "to see," with the prefix a, meaning "not," therefore it means "not seen," or "unseen."

All 11 passages where hades occurs are consistent with the meaning of sheol -- the universal hidden resting place of all the dead, and none give any possible suggestion of, or support to, the orthodox ideas of hell, except one, Luke 16:23, the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, which will be examined later.

This is the only instance, of all the 76 occurrences of sheol and hades, that gives any hint of consciousness or torment, and it will be apparent when we examine it that Christ is speaking in parables, and is using a popular superstition to confound its own supporters.

In Rev. 20:13-14, we learn that hades ("hell" in our version) is to be "cast into the lake of fire." To the orthodox conception, this presents an absurd paradox. To them, hades IS hell, and the lake of fire is hell, therefore hell is going to be cast into hell, and that will be the end of hell -- how then can hell be eternal? And what is the hell that hell is cast into in order to destroy hell?

But in the true Scriptural picture there is harmony and reason. Hades is the grave and the lake of fire is a symbol of everlasting destruction. As the final glorious conclusion, death and the grave, the signs and inseparable accompaniments of this mortal dispensation, are to be abolished, destroyed, consumed. Paul says similarly (1 Cor. 15:26) --

• "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

When the wicked have all finally been consumed into smoke and ashes, and all of this dying, mortal race have either been immortalized or destroyed, then there will be no more death, no more grave.

Death and hades (the grave) will have followed all other traces of mortality and evil into eternal oblivion. THIS is hades (the grave) being cast into the lake of fire -- completely consumed and obliterated.

Paul says later in the same chapter (1 Cor. 15:54) --

• "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

Jesus said to Peter (Matt. 16:18) --

• "Upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

And when he appeared to John in Patmos he said --

• "I have the keys of hades and of death" (Rev. 1:18).

Christ’s church is never, according to the popular conception, in hell, and consequently there would be no point in his having the keys of hell in order to open its gates for them.

But death and the grave DO claim them, but they do not eternally prevail over them. At his return, he will use these keys, and all whom he calls from the graves will come forth (John 5:28) just as he called Lazarus from the grave and he came forth. To this Paul refers when he says (1 Cor. 15:55-57) --

• "O Death, where is thy sting? O Grave, where is thy victory? . . .
  
  "Thanks be to God who giveth us the victory through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

To have the keys of death and the grave is to have the power to open its gates and release those held therein. http://www.bereanchristadelphian.com/FirstPrn/hell.htm​

 

[Magenta]

GEHENNA

Gehenna appears 12 times, and is always rendered "hell." It has nothing to do with sheol or hades and to translate it by the same word as is done in the Common Version is unfaithful and inexcusable.

Gehenna is a proper name, and should be so used. There is no warrant for translating it "hell," just theological bias. It is the name of a place. It appears 13 times in the Old Testament and is always there treated as a proper name of an actual site -- the Valley of Hinnom.

And in the New Testament, although truly it is used with a symbolic as well as a literal meaning, still it is on the literal meaning that the symbolic is based, and this cannot be understood if it is falsely translated.

For Jesus’ allusions to it to be understood, the facts of the name and place must be known. And one fact we shall find throughout -- it was a place of destruction and corruption, and not of preservation in torment.

Utter consuming destruction is always
the fundamental idea behind this word.

The Greek Gehenna is a transliteration of the Hebrew Gai Hinnom, meaning "Valley of Hinnom." This valley of Hinnom was the refuse dump of the city of Jerusalem. It can be seen on any map of Jerusalem, curving around the southwestern corner of the city. The Septuagint translators of the Old Testament into Greek use the word Gehenna where "Valley of Hinnom" appears in our version.

Originally, in this valley, there was a place called Topheth, and the history of the valley, as we are interested in it, begins with this place. The word Topheth is generally understood to mean "place of burning," and that is what it was. It was a place where, in the Canaanitish worship, human victims were burnt on an altar or sacrificed on the altar and the bodies then burned. Of King Ahaz it is recorded (2 Chron. 28:3) --

• "Moreover he burnt incense in the Valley of the son of Hinnom, and burnt his children in the fire, after the abominations of the heathen whom the Lord had cast out before the children of Israel."

The same is recorded of King Manasseh (2 Chron. 33:6).

As a result of these practices by the apostate kings of Judah, we find in 2 Kings 23:10 that Josiah, the reformer --

• "Defiled Topheth, which is in the Valley of the children of Hinnom (Gai Hinnom -- Gehenna), that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech."

This defilement by Josiah was the beginning of its use as the repository of the filth of Jerusalem. Here, right up to New Testament times, fires were kept perpetually burning for the consumption of the refuse of the city. The bodies of criminals were often cast into this place, as a final indignity and degradation.

Topheth is mentioned many times in Jeremiah 19. The prophet is sent there to prophesy against Jerusalem, and Topheth, the place of refuse and burning, is used as a symbol of destruction and defilement and consuming judgment.

Isaiah uses the same symbol in foretelling the destruction of Assyria. He says (Isa. 30:33):

• "Tophet is ordained of old; for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it."

The use here is both literal and figurative, for while it was actually in this valley that the host of Sennacherib was destroyed, the prophecy obviously refers to the greater complete destruction of the later day Assyrian power -- the combined forces of Russia and Papal Europe.

In the New Testament the same is true. The literal Gehenna, just outside of Jerusalem, will figure largely as a site of the destructive fiery judgments to which the term is figuratively applied.

Thus the terms Tophet, Hinnom, or Gehenna were used to indicate devouring judgments and the destruction of anything that was cast out as useless and offensive and utterly consumed by corruption and fire.

Christ accordingly used the term of the destiny of the wicked, whom we have seen will be consumed to smoke and ashes by God’s fierce anger.

As in the literal all which was rejected, undesirable, and unclean was cast into Gehenna outside the city, so into the consuming lake of fire outside the spiritual new Jerusalem will be cast all who are found unfit for access into the city.

Not one of the 12 references to Gehenna give any hint of sustained torment, but always, in keeping with other references to Tophet and Hinnom, to burning consumption and destruction. There is not the slightest support for the popular doctrine of hell in any of the uses of Gehenna. Hell is the GRAVE​

 

[Magenta]

UNQUENCHABLE FIRE

Unquenched or unquenchable fire means neither everlasting fire nor everlasting torment. Unquenchable fire, as scripturally used, means fire that completely consumes it object and fulfills its purpose of destruction.

Sodom and Gomorrah "suffered the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7). It is not still burning.

God warned Israel (Jer. 17:27) that He would --

• "Kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and shall not be quenched."

The fire was kindled, Jersualem was burned, but the fire is not still burning. It was not quenched -- it was not halted in its purpose.

Isaiah in the last verse of his prophecy, although he does not mention Topheth or Gehenna, clearly refers to the same final judgment to which they are applied. He says --

• "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against Me:
  "For their worm shall not die; neither shall their fire be quenched: and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

He does not, it is significant to note, speak of living persons in torment, but of carcases being consumed by worm and fire.

​

TARTAROS

The third word in the New Testament translated "hell" in the Common Version is Tartaros. This occurs only once, 2 Pet. 2:4 --

• "God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down into tartaros, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment."

To the Greeks, tartaros appears to have signified a subterranean prison of dense darkness, or the outer void confines of the earth. And Peter here uses it as synonymous with hades. The chains of darkness and the reservation to future judgment are harmonious with this.

The verse is no support for the popular idea, but very much the reverse, for it describes hell as a place of darkness and confinement WAITING FOR judgment -- a perfect description of sheol or hades scripturally understood, but nothing like the orthodox hell. Hell is the GRAVE​

 

[lastofall]

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:28-29)

 

[88]

There is a lot of debate on Hell--- I would stick to the Word of God--- some want to toast sinners gleefully forever, other say there is no Hell, but the grave--- we need to find the truth ---- what we want or desire in regard to this topic has no effect upon the truth--- example---many think they get into Heaven by good works--- they feel if they have been a good person and "nice" God will except them--- but we know by God's Word this is not true--- so check out the Word--- study the Word--- what does it say about Hell--- not only Hell, but the Lake of Fire--- Hell is cast into The Lake of Fire in Revelation 20:14----The Second Death is not annihilation (ceasing) to exist, but eternal separation from God in The Lake of Fire---- the Beast (Anti-Christ) and the False Prophet spend eternity there being tormented forever (Revelation 20:10) (Revelation 20:13-15)*** it even says death and Hell gave up their dead for judgment (Revelation 20:11-13)*** I agree this sounds terrible--- why would God do this? to me the Word seems clear that Hell is real---- the Lake of Fire is real--- the final judgment is real--- that the Second Death is eternal separation from God--- that this punishment is day and night forever (Revelation 20:10)*** I know whatever God does is just and right--- He is Love---- debate and scrutinize these Scriptures and ideas--- I am not taking delight in presenting this message, neither would I feel right taking away from the Word, which brings God's displeasure*** what say you??

 

[JesusRules1]

Psa 63:9 But those that seek my soul, to destroy it, shall go into the lower parts of the earth.

The wicked shall go in to the lower parts of the earth,which is hell.

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

It appears as if their flesh never dies,which even though the flesh rots off their bones,they still feel the effects of the flesh.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Jesus said it is everlasting punishment,and they will be in the same place as the devil and the fallen angels.

Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

It appears as if they are still alive,for there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,which I believe it means cursing out of anger,for I do not believe they are grinding their teeth,like when they went against Stephen they gnashed on him with their teeth,which means they were saying words against him in anger.

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

These scriptures do not prove that all people will receive punishment,but those who take the mark of the beast have everlasting punishment.

But the Bible does seem to indicate that all people will receive everlasting punishment that does not make the grade with God.

Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Also there is different levels of punishment,for the world that never heard the truth,but did not make the grade will be beat with few stripes,which all creation will be judged by love God,and love people,which creation testifies of this,the universal law that cannot escape anybody,for they are without excuse,and those that heard the truth to the satisfaction that they are accountable,but do not make the grade will be beat with many stripes,like the people that said Lord,Lord,but could not make it.

The people that took the mark of the beast might have the worse punishment of all for what they believed,compared to what people before them believed,for people before them were not as wicked,and a lot believed in a God,and they were held back from being as wicked as the people that took the mark,for they believed in no personal God,cutting God out of the picture in their kingdom,believed in the occult,and the harnessing of nature for power,arrogance on a level,and fleshy,not seen before the beast kingdom,and when they took the mark they obtained the nature of a devil,and it was only the devils actions through them,with no human nature,or will.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

All sin must be purged with fire,which the saints receive the Holy Spirit,and with fire,for their sins are purged,but the wicked will remain sinful for all eternity,so they will have to be purged with fire for eternity.

I do not like this subject,and leave it alone in the presence of others,which I do not like it for I do not want people to view me like that,believing it,but it appears as if the wicked will remain alive,and have everlasting punishment,and we cannot overlook it,and say it is not true,and adhere to the word of God.

 

[Magenta]

Yes, death, or more concisely, the second death, which is what Scripture calls it, as a punishment for refusing the free gift of grace from God, lasts forever after. Why do you think the wicked remain alive? The soul is never said to be immortal, only God is immortal, Scripture explicitly says so. Scripture also plainly states that we attain to life ever after through faith in Jesus Christ's shed blood. Scripture plainly states that those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life pass into the second death following the resurrection and judgement of all.

I wonder how long the judgement of the wicked will take. It could be over in a flash or it could take a while, since possibly millions or even billions of people will be waiting their turn to come before a just and holy God to be judged for their sins before being cast into the lake of fire to perish forever. If I was in that line up I would be wailing and gnashing my teeth, too.

 

[Magenta]

TWO PLACES APPEAR TO TEACH TORMENT

There are only two places in all the Bible which could be considered to give it the slightest shadow of support, and both of these upon examination demonstrate the utter baselessness of the belief.

It is almost unbelievable that on the basis of such meager and twisted evidence, orthodox priestcraft should build such a repulsive and repugnant doctrine, in the face of the whole teaching and tenor of Scripture.

One would consider that men would be extremely reluctant to believe such things even on strong evidence, instead of eagerly snatching at isolated straws to support them in the very face of such strong evidence. Unfortunately, the men who translated the Scriptures into our tongue were steeped in this error and have colored their translation with it, as we have seen.

No honest and careful study of all the appearances of the words Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna, and of the teachings of Scripture on the nature of man and the destiny of the wicked, could possibly produce the lurid nightmare that is the orthodox conception of eternal torments amid the fiery demons of hell.

​

THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS

First, we ask, is this parable to be taken literally and all the other plain teaching of Scripture rejected upon the strength of it? We must face this issue squarely and choose. The Scriptures say the dead are asleep in the dust of the earth, they know nothing, they will come forth to resurrection and judgment at the last day. We have seen that this is the consistent teaching of the Bible throughout.

Now we must either flatly reject ALL this testimony, or we must regard this story for what it truly and obviously is, a parable worded according to the false doctrines of the very class Jesus was addressing -- the Pharisees.

As is apparent from the contemporary Jewish historian Josephus, this account of Abraham’s bosom, the great gulf, the tormenting flame, was part of the pharisaical tradition by which they made void the Word of God (Mark 7:13), and Jesus was merely confounding them with their own errors and "answering a fool according to his folly" (Prov. 26:5) and "taking the wise in their own craftiness" (1 Cor. 3:19).

Compare his treatment of a similar Pharisaic parable (Matt. 12:27) and how he picked it up and turned it against his adversaries --

• "If I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges."

We are clearly told that Jesus deliberately spoke to them in parables that they should not understand (Matt. 13:10-13; Luke 8:10). This parable is in the middle of an obvious chain of other parables, and opens with the same introduction.

Taken literally, it is not in harmony with the orthodox conception of hell that it is claimed to prove. So-called immortal souls according to popular belief, do not possess fingers and eyes and tongues, neither is there visibility and conversation between heaven and hell. Taken literally, it is an absurdity from any point of view.

​

REV. 20:10 and 14:9-11

The other place used to support the theory of eternal torment is Rev. 20:10 --

• "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Similarly in Rev. 14:9 11 --

• "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation.
  
  "And he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.
  
  "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Here then is the whole case for eternal torment -- a parable, and a case of obvious symbolism.

We submit that any attempt to take the admittedly symbolic book of Revelation literally to teach doctrines that are at complete variance with the whole tenor of plain Scripture is extremely unsound and unjustified interpretation.

It would not be suggested that the wine of the wrath of God, and the cup of His indignation, and the beast, and the mark on the forehead, and the great city Babylon, all mentioned in these very same verses, are to be taken literally. All these things must be understood in harmony with the first principles of Scripture.

In Rev. 20:14 we have death and hell cast into this same lake of fire. Can death be literally cast anywhere? Is hell cast into hell? To childishly take isolated parts of this symbolism to bolster unscriptural notions is not the course of honesty or wisdom.

The plain scriptural teaching on the state of the dead and the destiny of the wicked is too clear and repeated to give any excuse for false doctrines to be built on such passages as these.

And it could be mentioned in passing that the expression here translated "for ever and ever’ does not in the Greek carry the same unlimited sense as the English, and must be understood in relation to the matter involved.

On the basis of all the foregoing, we conclude without doubt that HELL, as Scripturally understood, is the grave, the silent, dark, unseen resting-place of ALL the sleeping dead, the land of oblivion and forgetfulness -- and not the eternal, flaming torture-chamber of orthodox superstition. Hell is the GRAVE​

 

[Magenta]

One of the most inconceivable oppositions to the idea that death is the final
punishment for those who refuse God's offer of a life more abundant through the
shed blood of Christ, Who took the penalty of sin upon Himself (the penalty for
sin being explicitly stated over and over and over again as being death), is this:
death is not a punishment Now, really, I have to wonder at anyone who would
say such a ridiculously foolish thing. Why do people reject death as being punishment,
let alone being everlasting? Fear of death is named as the cause of slavery (to sin).

 

[dcontroversal]

A question of logic....and the only possible deductions...

Jesus tells a story in Luke 16 (a story or parable is irrelevant) we all know the account....Lazarus and a Rich man....

Lazarus is poor and sickly and maltreated by the rich guy...
Rich guy has everything he every needed and wanted and seen Lazarus lay at his gate....

Lazarus dies and is carried to Abraham's bosom...(paradise) and is comforted....
Rich guy dies and wakes up in hell being in torment (torcher)<--Hell moves to meet thee at thy coming

We all know the rest of the story...BEGGING Abraham to send Lazarus back to warn his brothers of this place.....

A. Either the place is literal and the warning valid
B. Jesus used an imaginary place which does not exist which is misleading and false by all account of the bible

Fast forward to Revelation

Death and hell get cast into the lake of fire where the LOST are cast....

How does the smoke of their torment ascending before the throne bear out
How do the analogies applied to this place and hell bear out

If these places are fake, not real, not eternal we have several issues with the bible....

a. Whatsoever God does is everlasting<---applied unto salvation as well as punishment...so chunk this verse
b. The bible is replete with falsehoods, fake imaginary places and fraudulent teaching so as to "scare people"

Sorry....don't buy it as the principle of the above cannot be overlooked or chunked....

 

[Magenta]

If these places are fake, not real, not eternal we have several issues with the bible....

You say it can be a story or parable, no matter, but then say if these places are fake there is a problem? That seems contradictory, PLUS, nobody said hell did not exist and nobody has said the lake of fire does not exist, so I am actually not sure what your complaint in that regard is. Hmmm. Well, anyways, I already dealt with your questions regarding the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, and also the verses from Revelation. Two posts above yours. Those are really the only two places where people point to justify their eternal torment belief weighed close to fifty to one Scriptures against torment that explicitly state that death is the wages of sin and that those who are not saved utterly perish. Not to mention rationalizing God being good when you have turned Him into a cruel monster, torturing forever after (eternally, infinitely) those who refuse a finite offer within the confines of their finite lives. Also, there are plenty of places in Scripture where forever and eternal do not mean forever and this has also been dealt with also in this very thread, see my first post here, it is post number six, I tried linking to it, but it won't let me do that for some reason

 

[dcontroversal]

You say it can be a story or parable, no matter, but then say if these places are fake there is a problem? That seems contradictory, PLUS, nobody said hell did not exist and nobody has said the lake of fire does not exist, so I am actually not sure what your complaint in that regard is. Hmmm. Well, anyways, I already dealt with your questions regarding the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, and also the verses from Revelation. Two posts above yours. Those are really the only two places where people point to justify their eternal torment belief weighed close to fifty to one Scriptures against torment that explicitly state that death is the wages of sin and that those who are not saved utterly perish. Not to mention rationalizing God being good when you have turned Him into a cruel monster, torturing forever after (eternally, infinitely) those who refuse a finite offer within the confines of their finite lives. Also, there are plenty of places in Scripture where forever and eternal do not mean forever and this has also been dealt with also in this very thread, see my first post here, it is post number six, I tried linking to it, but it won't let me do that for some reason

Two witnesses are all that is required......for something to be true
Originally Posted by dcontroversal

Amen to that.....

And shall come forth; they that have done good, to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation.

Thank you, DCon, I did give him that Scripture, but sadly JIMBO refuses to acknowledge the truth of it.

 

[Magenta]

Two witnesses are all that is required......for something to be true
Originally Posted by dcontroversal

Amen to that.....

And shall come forth; they that have done good, to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation.

Thank you, DCon, I did give him that Scripture, but sadly JIMBO refuses to acknowledge the truth of it.

Yes, the second death is eternal ever after... just as our resurrected life in Christ is promised to be forever after Dead is not alive. Life is promised only to the saved. The dead know nothing

 

[Issachar92]

A question of logic....and the only possible deductions...

Jesus tells a story in Luke 16 (a story or parable is irrelevant) we all know the account....Lazarus and a Rich man....

Lazarus is poor and sickly and maltreated by the rich guy...
Rich guy has everything he every needed and wanted and seen Lazarus lay at his gate....

Lazarus dies and is carried to Abraham's bosom...(paradise) and is comforted....
Rich guy dies and wakes up in hell being in torment (torcher)<--Hell moves to meet thee at thy coming

We all know the rest of the story...BEGGING Abraham to send Lazarus back to warn his brothers of this place.....

A. Either the place is literal and the warning valid
B. Jesus used an imaginary place which does not exist which is misleading and false by all account of the bible

Fast forward to Revelation

Death and hell get cast into the lake of fire where the LOST are cast....

How does the smoke of their torment ascending before the throne bear out
How do the analogies applied to this place and hell bear out

If these places are fake, not real, not eternal we have several issues with the bible....

a. Whatsoever God does is everlasting<---applied unto salvation as well as punishment...so chunk this verse
b. The bible is replete with falsehoods, fake imaginary places and fraudulent teaching so as to "scare people"

Sorry....don't buy it as the principle of the above cannot be overlooked or chunked....

read the examples posted where eternal isnt eternal literally posted by Magenta earlier in this post.

 

[Locutus]

Rev 20:14 And death and hell (hades) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

It's not possible to cast hell into hell, the lake of fire is "figurative" it's not literal fire

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

The new heaven and earth are not a new physical heaven and earth.

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes, the second death is eternal ever after... just as our resurrected life in Christ is promised to be forever after Dead is not alive. Life is promised only to the saved. The dead know nothing

yeah..the dead knowing nothing is indicative of them knowing what is happening on earth...the rich man was well aware of what was happening HA

 

[dcontroversal]

read the examples posted where eternal isnt eternal literally posted by Magenta earlier in this post.

Read Ecclesiastes 3:14 Whatsoever God does, IT IS EVERLSATING.....including his punishment.......

New American Standard Bible
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

King James Bible
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Magenta]

There are many many many Scriptures that attest to the fact that death is the final everlasting punishment for the person who refuses to accept the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ as a covering for their sin.

The lost perish and are no more.

Strong's concordance word 622 Perish

apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly​

Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Short Definition: I destroy, lose, am perishing
Definition: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).


622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad
that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but
rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the Greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which
means to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish, make void.

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those
in the days of Noah (Luke 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all"
(not tortured). And it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29)
"destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So a person either receives eternal life, or they perish. Nothing about eternal torment there.

John 5:24, Jesus said
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has
eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift
of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him,
for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Please, note again: Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption
(phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish. The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from
the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The Greek word is olethron: destruction. From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruination, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction,
but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

James 1:15b
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

James 4:12a
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the
One who is able to save and to destroy;

2 Peter 3:7
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for
fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient
toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
If you are not alive you cannot be tormented!

Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Revelation 2:11b
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in
Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ
will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.
How can it be any clearer?

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.
The lake of fire was created for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us: the lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead!

After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever in their state of sin. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

Ezekiel 18:4
The soul who sins will die.

Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.

Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:

Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

Psalm 37:28b
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
the dead know nothing

Following the resurrection and judgement of all is when the mortal put on the
immortal, not before. Then too shall the corruptible put on the incorruptible.
See 1 Corinthians 15:54~ Death will be swallowed up in victory.

In fact, Jesus Christ has already overcome death.
Death and Hell will be thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Magenta]

Read Ecclesiastes 3:14 Whatsoever God does, IT IS EVERLSATING.....including his punishment.......

New American Standard Bible
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

King James Bible
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I agree, death (the second death) will be everlasting.

Did you look at my first post in this thread? It seems not

 

[dcontroversal]

I think a proper understanding of death makes it all make sense....

Death means separation....at it base, root meaning...

A person dies physically....spirit SEPERATED from the body
A person dies spiritually...spirit separated from God

The second death is eternal separation from God spiritually......into the lake of fire.......that is