DEPRAVITY OF MAN

[Forest]

Yes, once we believed on him.

Shroom, you are cutting Jesus short of what he accomplished on the cross. All of those that Christ died for was those that his Father gave him and all of them are eternally saved without the loss of one John 6:37-41. Your believing has nothing to do with your eternal salvation, but your believing can bring about many timely salvtions.

 

[shroom2]

Shroom, you are cutting Jesus short of what he accomplished on the cross.

You are cutting him short. He died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).

All of those that Christ died for was those that his Father gave him and all of them are eternally saved without the loss of one John 6:37-41. Your believing has nothing to do with your eternal salvation, but your believing can bring about many timely salvtions.

A person's believing has everything to do with eternal salvation. Without it, we are not saved.

Rom 10:
9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[Forest]

Galatians 5 does not talk about the fruit of the Spirit only, but also the works of the flesh. These includes idolatry, witchcraft, strife, seditions, heresies etc. But you believe that regenerate persons can live in these works of the flesh, they maybe only need to be "timely saved" from it? Just that they show what you think is some "zeal of God", then you think they are regenerate.

Your judgment of "fruit" is very strange, to say the least. Strange it is also when you talk about total depravity and yet seem to imply that a regenerate person may never even believe that there is such a thing as total depravity. You need to mirror yourself in your own questions and suggestions.

All who are regenerated have the fruit of the Spirit while believing the gospel, those who are unregenerate do not believe the gospel and manifest thereby works of the flesh. That's what the Bible says.

I totally agree with your last statement, but when God quickens his elect the quickening does not eleminate the presence of the flesh. When we are but a natural man we have only the fleshly nature but when we are quickened we have both the Spirit and the flesh, as indicated by Paul describing the warfare within us, The flesh against the Spirit. Just because we have been regenerated does not mean that we never lust after the flesh. James 1:13-15, Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man; But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and inticed Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin,and sin,when it is finished, bringeth forth death. death being a seperation from a fellowship with God.

 

[Forest]

You do not get this. It is not a matter, even in its depths, as to how God looks upon the elect from eternity past, it is a matter of God's justice and judgment over sin and LEGAL justification of sinners.

And I have never even suggested that Christ gave all mankind a "chance" to be saved if they will accept his offering, so why do you argue about that?

I ask again: do you actually read my posts or not?

I read all of your posts that you answer to my posts, How do you think that I come up with the different ways of defending the doctrine of Christ. I will ask you the question again, "Do you think that those that Christ died for were made just by that death"?

 

[Forest]

John 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Shroom, I have told you several times what the Greek translation of the word "world" means in John 3:16.

 

[shroom2]

Shroom, I have told you several times what the Greek translation of the word "world" means in John 3:16.

Yes. You say it means something other than what it plainly says. I have noticed you do that with many scripture to make them "harmonise" with Calvinism.

 

[Forest]

Yes. You say it means something other than what it plainly says. I have noticed you do that with many scripture to make them "harmonise" with Calvinism.

dYou can't even attempt to make your belief harmonise with many scriptures that I have given you.

 

[tribesman]

Yes. You say it means something other than what it plainly says. I have noticed you do that with many scripture to make them "harmonise" with Calvinism.

Just to get this straight, Forest is not holding to calvinism proper. Calvin did not teach eternal justification. Just like Luther he taught justification by faith, whereby the sinner is declared legally just. However, some hyper-calvinists did teach various forms of eternal justification. That's the closest label one can get to Forest's teachings.

 

[tribesman]

Compare the difference in the natural man 1 Cor 2:16 and the righteous man. Man is either natural or spiritual, no in betweens.

That scripture says:

1 Cor 2:16

[16] For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

How do you discern if someone has the mind of Christ or not?

And, again, you have not yet answered these questions:

Do you think an "eternally saved" person will go his whole life, even until death, totally ignorant about the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel? Can an "eternally saved" person believe false gospels, damnable heresies and be a worker of iniquity all his life, and die in that state, and yet be among the "eternally saved"? All that signifies that they are among the "eternally saved" is a zeal for their beliefs and their god?

How do you discern if someone is regenerate or not? Do saved people have any certain marks as how to what they believe and teach and live their lives or is just about anyone who professes interest in God, religion, the Bible, morals etc (however false it would ever be) among the "eternally saved"?

Do you see where your reasoning leads to?!?!

 

[tribesman]

Did you notice that predestined came before the calling or the justification? Eph 1, Having predestinated us by the adoption of children byJesus Christ to himself. Let me ask you this question, "Did the work of Christ on the cross make us Just"?

Yes, the atoning blood at the cross is the sole foundation for everything that pertains to our salvation. However, in the legal sense this is not applied to us before we are regenerated and thus are caused by God to believe the gospel. Predestination comes first, even before the redemption was accomplished at the cross, that does not mean that predestination equates regeneration and justification.

 

[tribesman]

I totally agree with your last statement, but when God quickens his elect the quickening does not eleminate the presence of the flesh. When we are but a natural man we have only the fleshly nature but when we are quickened we have both the Spirit and the flesh, as indicated by Paul describing the warfare within us, The flesh against the Spirit. Just because we have been regenerated does not mean that we never lust after the flesh. James 1:13-15...

To talk about that our flesh is struggling vs the Spirit and temptations is a straw man and off-topic. No one here has denied these realities.

But I note now that you do say that the elect are being quickened, implying they were dead in trespasses and sins prior to that. This, you admit.

In post #115 you wrote:

We receive the imputed righteousness of Christ when we are quickened together with Christ by God Eph 2:5. When he writes his laws in our hearts and upon our minds.

And in post #133 you wrote:

It was an act of love of God when he quickened his elect when they were still dead (spiritually dead and full of wrath), so God did show love to a wrathful elect of his.

Now, how do you "harmonise" these statements with eternal justification, which says that God never (or at least not after the cross) saw the elect as sinners worthy of just wrath, but as "Holy and without blame" (as you put it in post #107) and that justification does not occur at regeneration?

This is confusing.

 

[tribesman]

I read all of your posts that you answer to my posts, How do you think that I come up with the different ways of defending the doctrine of Christ. I will ask you the question again, "Do you think that those that Christ died for were made just by that death"?

The theory of eternal justification is not biblical, which has been shown already. And your question is asked and answered since it has already been been expounded, several times even, how and when God's elect are made just, and what the sole basis and foundation is for same. For instance in these posts:

http://christianchat.com/608319-post101.html <-link

http://christianchat.com/608344-post102.html <-link

We should stop repeating ourselves.

 

[Forest]

That scripture says:

How do you discern if someone has the mind of Christ or not?

And, again, you have not yet answered these questions:

Do you think an "eternally saved" person will go his whole life, even until death, totally ignorant about the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel? Can an "eternally saved" person believe false gospels, damnable heresies and be a worker of iniquity all his life, and die in that state, and yet be among the "eternally saved"? All that signifies that they are among the "eternally saved" is a zeal for their beliefs and their god?

How do you discern if someone is regenerate or not? Do saved people have any certain marks as how to what they believe and teach and live their lives or is just about anyone who professes interest in God, religion, the Bible, morals etc (however false it would ever be) among the "eternally saved"?

Do you see where your reasoning leads to?!?!

I apologise Tribesman, my fingers were faster than my mind was because I referrenced the wrong scripture to you. I said 1 Cor 2:16 and I ment 1 Cor 2:14. sorry! In an attempt to answer your question, I will give you an example; By history we know that before any explorer came to America that some of the american indians believed in a spiritual being that they prayed to and they believed upon their death that they would go to a happy hunting ground. Now how do you think that they came to that belief if not by the revealation of the Holy Spirit? They had never heard the gospel and knew nothing about Christ. Do you not believe that some of them that believed in that manner were of the elect of God? I can not absolutly tell who are of the elect. Jesus says we shall know them by their fruits. I also can compair them with the description of the natural man in 1 Cor 2:14. God chastened David for counting the number of Israel, so I don't think that it is a good idea to try and distinguish absolutly who the elect are.

 

[Forest]

Yes, the atoning blood at the cross is the sole foundation for everything that pertains to our salvation. However, in the legal sense this is not applied to us before we are regenerated and thus are caused by God to believe the gospel. Predestination comes first, even before the redemption was accomplished at the cross, that does not mean that predestination equates regeneration and justification.

God choosing the elect before the foundation of the world is absolut and sure for his elect to be secured in everlasting life. All that he choose, he gave to Christ and Christ died for all that his Father gave him, so what I do not understand is why you hold to man having a detramental part in his justification by believing. Man should not get any credit for any part of his eternal salvation or eternal salvation would not be by the grace of God. Man gets to pat himself on the back and honour himself for being responsiable for being justified. I am sorry, if I seem hard-headed to you, but I can't see God honoring man's pride.

 

[Forest]

To talk about that our flesh is struggling vs the Spirit and temptations is a straw man and off-topic. No one here has denied these realities.

But I note now that you do say that the elect are being quickened, implying they were dead in trespasses and sins prior to that. This, you admit.

In post #115 you wrote:



And in post #133 you wrote:



Now, how do you "harmonise" these statements with eternal justification, which says that God never (or at least not after the cross) saw the elect as sinners worthy of just wrath, but as "Holy and without blame" (as you put it in post #107) and that justification does not occur at regeneration?

This is confusing.

The work of Christ on the cross save his elect eternally, secured their everlasting life, and made them just. After Christ washed all of the sins away of the elect, God looked upon them from that day forward as Holy and without blame, even during the time period of their natural birth to their quickening. Even though we continually sin, God sees us as Holy and without blame as far as eternal security is conscerned. We have no knowledge of our justification until we are regenerated, but that does not mean that we were not already justified.

 

[tribesman]

I apologise Tribesman, my fingers were faster than my mind was because I referrenced the wrong scripture to you. I said 1 Cor 2:16 and I ment 1 Cor 2:14. sorry! In an attempt to answer your question, I will give you an example; By history we know that before any explorer came to America that some of the american indians believed in a spiritual being that they prayed to and they believed upon their death that they would go to a happy hunting ground. Now how do you think that they came to that belief if not by the revealation of the Holy Spirit? They had never heard the gospel and knew nothing about Christ. Do you not believe that some of them that believed in that manner were of the elect of God? I can not absolutly tell who are of the elect. Jesus says we shall know them by their fruits. I also can compair them with the description of the natural man in 1 Cor 2:14. God chastened David for counting the number of Israel, so I don't think that it is a good idea to try and distinguish absolutly who the elect are.

I believe what the Word of God says, that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone believing and that only those who believe the gospel are regenerate and declared righteous and thus justified. If there were any elect among those heathen people, then they would have to be saved through the same principles as all other elect. There are no elect who do not believe the gospel upon regeneration. All who are saved believe the truth, and all who do not believe the truth are not saved. If someone has never heard the gospel and know nothing about Christ then it is impossible for them to be saved.

 

[tribesman]

God choosing the elect before the foundation of the world is absolut and sure for his elect to be secured in everlasting life. All that he choose, he gave to Christ and Christ died for all that his Father gave him, so what I do not understand is why you hold to man having a detramental part in his justification by believing. Man should not get any credit for any part of his eternal salvation or eternal salvation would not be by the grace of God. Man gets to pat himself on the back and honour himself for being responsiable for being justified. I am sorry, if I seem hard-headed to you, but I can't see God honoring man's pride.

You assume most wrongly that faith always must mean a work, or that faith would be conditional in God's giving of salvation to man. Which comes from the grave error eternal justifcaion advocates have in denying that justification, which means being declared righteous based on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone, occurs at the time a person is regenerated and as such is caused to believe the gospel. This is how God imputes and imparts salvation to the elect. From scripture it is clear that all justified persons are regenerate, there are no unregenerate persons who are justified.

 

[tribesman]

The work of Christ on the cross save his elect eternally, secured their everlasting life, and made them just. After Christ washed all of the sins away of the elect, God looked upon them from that day forward as Holy and without blame, even during the time period of their natural birth to their quickening. Even though we continually sin, God sees us as Holy and without blame as far as eternal security is conscerned. We have no knowledge of our justification until we are regenerated, but that does not mean that we were not already justified.

You cannot put God's love towards the elect prior to their regeneration, adoption and conversion above or in conflict with His justice. Again, it is not primarily a matter of what is the motivation and heart from God's side in dealing with elect sinners. It is a legal matter, where sin cannot be looked upon and must be dealt with according to precepts of law. The theory of eternal justifcaion is called antinomian (i e against God's law) because it denies the fruit of regeneration and it implies that nothing can really be an indicator of someone's lostness. People can live in every sin there is under the sun and believe any cursed gospel and heresy there is, and yet they may still be "justified". To this the apostle John says the following:

1John.3


[6] Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
[7] Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
[8] He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
[10] In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

 

[Forest]

You cannot put God's love towards the elect prior to their regeneration, adoption and conversion above or in conflict with His justice. Again, it is not primarily a matter of what is the motivation and heart from God's side in dealing with elect sinners. It is a legal matter, where sin cannot be looked upon and must be dealt with according to precepts of law. The theory of eternal justifcaion is called antinomian (i e against God's law) because it denies the fruit of regeneration and it implies that nothing can really be an indicator of someone's lostness. People can live in every sin there is under the sun and believe any cursed gospel and heresy there is, and yet they may still be "justified". To this the apostle John says the following:

Do you believe that these scriptures are saying that when we are regenerated we do not sin another sin the rest of our life? I believe that after Christ did his work on the cross God looks at his elect as Holy and without blame as far as eternal security is concerned, but we still do sin until we are changed from mortal to immortal.

 

[tribesman]

Do you believe that these scriptures are saying that when we are regenerated we do not sin another sin the rest of our life? I believe that after Christ did his work on the cross God looks at his elect as Holy and without blame as far as eternal security is concerned, but we still do sin until we are changed from mortal to immortal.

No, I do not believe that. However, I do believe that there is great change taking place in the elect when he is regenerated. He has now a new nature, that albeit constantly struggles with his old man/flesh yet produces some fruit that he did not have prior to his regeneration. One example of this fruit is that he now believes the gospel, conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone, and that he now, by this knowledge, denounces and detest any false gospel, conditioned on the sinner.

He will also know that before he believed the gospel he was not regenerate and that all who do not believe the gospel are unregenerate. As such, neither he nor them that did or do not believe the gospel were/are not justified. He will discern that anyone who is ignorant about the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel, is unregenerate and not justified. He will know that anyone dying in this ignorance showed indication of being eternally lost.