Describe OSAS in terms of this passage.....

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Chris1975

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Apr 27, 2017
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#21
Reread Romans 5:10. It is as clear as daylight that once a person has become His through being reconciled and made sons (while formerly were enemies), he shall be (future tense) saved by His life. (this includes His present intercession as High Priest in heaven.)

Romans 5:10 KJV
[10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Here, I'll add one more for good measure...

John 5:24 KJV
[24] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Note Romans 5:10 has two parts, 1) A reconciliation to the Father through Christs sacrifice 2) A shall be saved (future tense). Why was it written "shall be saved" as opposed to just "are saved". Given any thought to this?

Herewith the reason. Salvation has three aspects: As can be seen below:

Romans 5v1,2
5 Therefore, having been justified by faith, [a]we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

There are three aspects to our salvation. By reducing salvation to just one aspect, many will end up arguing for days and days on end (years and years). One will quote aspect number 1, and another will try refute with aspect number 2. These however are not contradictory. The bible is not contradictory.

All three Persons of the Godhead are involved in the three aspects of our common salvation.

Look carefully at the verse above:

1) We cannot be saved unless we come through the door of Jesus Christ. We are JUSTIFIED by his blood through faith in Christ Jesus, which brings PEACE with GOD. This is aspect number 1. There is no part 2 or 3 unless you come through Jesus. There is no way to the Father but by Jesus. There are hundreds of scriptures which establish this basic truth. None of us actually argue against this point. I will say it once more, just for emphasis ---- NONE of us are arguing this point.

2) We have the Spirit of Grace, the Holy Spirit, who also has a part in our salvation, but it is NOT in conflict with part 1 above. Read the scripture above once again. ------ "through whom also we have access by faith into this GRACE in which we stand". We have access to the Holy Spirit through Jesus. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Grace. It is a NOW moment. Where we currently stand. Its living out our lives in the HERE AND NOW. Whereas part 1 above refers to JUSTIFICATION, this part 2 refers to SANCTIFICATION. Its a separating ourselves from the world and worldliness. Continually transforming our minds. Becoming more Christlike. Growing in God. Growing in Love. This is also VERY MUCH a part of our salvation, as we work out our salvation with fear and trembling. To those who OVERCOME He will give the right to eat from the tree of life. There is a daily OVERCOMING. A daily picking up of our cross. There are hundreds of scriptures establishing this basic truth. Herein lies the battle for the Christian, Flesh vs Spirit and Spirit vs Flesh. Our choices remain to either live according to the flesh or the Spirit. These decisions are made in our inner man. In our soul.

3) We now have God the Father, who participates in the final concluding chapter of our Salvation, namely GLORIFICATION. It is at this point, when we come into His glorious presence that we are given new resurrected bodies (Glorified bodies). Bodies which cannot sin for they no longer have the corruption that we have been dragging around since Adam. This final chapter of Glorification to awarded to those who have overcome. How do we overcome? 1 John 5 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—[a]our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? There are also hundreds of scriptures pointing to the glorification of the saints.

None of the above is possible without Faith. We should all agree on this fact. But simply bypassing the journey, by the Holy Spirit, and simply dismissing the work of sanctification is very much unlikely to get you to the point of Glorifiction. For if you live by Faith, the life you live in part 2 will bring you through as an overcomer.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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#22
True. But you are trying to establish Bible doctrine with a parable and taking it beyond its application.

So here's your answer: Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

The Lord calls him a "wicked servant", which term does not apply to believers. And notice the debt is not a sin debt but a monetary debt.
On the contrary, sin is wickedness. Someone who was a believer, who then truns to wickedness, will be considered wicked by the Lord if they don't confess and repent of this wickedness. This can be seen in the very parable we are talking about. We can also see this in God's character when addressing this in Ezekiel 18:

21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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#23
Hebrews 10v14
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

There are two parts to the above scripture, which many overlook. We have a role in sanctification by the choices we make. The Lord says be holy, for he is holy. You have a duty to not live according to the flesh but rather according to the Spirit. This is your part to play in the sanctification process. The Holy Spirit leads and we willingly follow. Unforgiveness of your brother is not a Holy Spirit led action, but rather your own yielding to your flesh.

The new covenant was Jesus' sacrifice once for all, as opposed to an annual high priest activity. The new covenant can cleanse your conscience whereas the old covenant was a continual reminder and could not fully cleanse our consciences. For more on this:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/your-conscience.154042/
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/understanding-the-new-covenant.152420/
No one is saying you should not forgive here. Forgiveness actually benefit you a lot more than the person you are forgiving.

But you are linking it to salvation, which is a silly link, in the new covenant of grace. Now we forgive others because we have already been forgiven. Ephesians 4:32

The same book of Hebrews also stated clearly, in Hebrews 9:16

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

So when did Jesus die and when was his offering? Did it take place during the passage in Matthew that you used?
 

Guojing

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#24
Jesus didn't spend 3 years teaching the disciples the Red Letter Word, just for all of this to be forgotten/ignored.considered irrelevant on the Day of Pentecost under the new Covenant and dispensation. Don't forget that his disciples were the very first members of the Church.

Ephesians 2 v14-18 - God has removed the separating wall between Jew and Gentile.
Ahh, you want to answer my previous question on whether you are a red letter Christian? Nothing embarrassing, you have the right to hold any belief you want.
 

TLC209

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#25
No one is saying you should not forgive here. Forgiveness actually benefit you a lot more than the person you are forgiving.

But you are linking it to salvation, which is a silly link, in the new covenant of grace. Now we forgive others because we have already been forgiven. Ephesians 4:32

The same book of Hebrews also stated clearly, in Hebrews 9:16

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

So when did Jesus die and when was his offering? Did it take place during the passage in Matthew that you used?
Still quoting Hebrews I see... smh I thought Hebrews was for tribulation only? Youre such a hypocrite. Quit with your fallacies already.
 

Guojing

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#26
Still quoting Hebrews I see... smh I thought Hebrews was for tribulation only? Youre such a hypocrite. Quit with your fallacies already.
You have a habit of jumping into other people's discussion and add nothing to them, other than making personal attacks.

You can learn things from Hebrews even though its not the tribulation yet. All scripture is written for our benefit.
 

TLC209

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#27
Matthew 18
21
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


  • So let’s try get everybody on the same page. Can we all agree that Peter is a believer?
  • Can we agree that Peter is included in the Kingdom of God (because he is a believer)
  • Can we all agree that what Jesus answers next, as well as in the parable that follows, is the Lord’s response to a question by a believer, as to how often he (Peter) should forgive?
  • Jesus answers him and says seventy times seven. So basically unending. Continue to forgive.
Assuming we are on the same page up to this point, let’s go further and into the parable that follows.
  • We have a King and a Kingdom. This can be seen in parable terms as Jesus and His Kingdom
  • We have a subject of the kingdom (a servant) who owed the king a huge debt (v23). In parable terms we as his subjects had a huge debt (sin)
  • The subject pleaded for the Kings mercy (prayer, repentance, faith) (v26)
  • The loving King has mercy and compassion, and wiped clean the debt (v27). In parable terms this is the Lord forgiving our sins. This is included in the Lord’s Grace.
  • Can we agree up to this point that the only those who have come to Christ, and pleaded for mercy have received the Lords grace, and the forgiveness of sins. I am not aware of the unbelievers sin being washed clean, only the believers sin. It’s no use saying this servant is “not really” a servant or subject of the king. Because he truly has had his debt wiped clean.
  • In parable terms, the servant is already in the kingdom, and the servant has had his sins washed clean.
So far so good. Let’s not forget that Jesus is still answering Peter’s question (Peter being a servant of the King in the kingdom)
  • Now we see that same servant whose debt was cleared, go out and demand that another fellowservant pay him an even smaller amount owed to him, and when he could not, was thrown into prison. In parable terms, this is exactly the same as a Christian who has had such great sins forgiven by the Lord, but yet unwilling to extend the same mercy, forgiveness and grace to a fellow servant.
  • And we see the end result of what that got this servant. Once the King hear about what happened, he REINSTATED the debt that was due on the first servant. What was forgiven, WAS NO LONGER FORGIVEN.
  • And we end off with the last verse, verse 35, which states the following: 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

So lets bring this back to OSAS doctrine, and whether this holds water. We can see from the above that this entire answer is in in direct relation to the question of a believer (Peter). And verse 35 is ALSO directed to Peter specifically, as well as all believers generally. Could Peter’s sins also be re-imputed to him if he, after having received forgiveness, had not the graces to extend this to his fellow man?
I bring back the original questions.
  • Was Peter a believer? Yes.
  • Is this parable applicable to Peter, as well as others? Yes.
  • Should Peter forgive others? Yes
  • What happens to Peter should he refuse to forgive (remember he is a believer)?
  • Should you perhaps reconsider the OSAS doctrine?
Great job Chris!! I applaud you!! You ripped apart their entire doctrine. Tip of the iceburg, theres many more scriptures that shreds that false doctrine to pieces. Anyone with ears to hear should listen!

I see a few here who are BLIND! Trying to remain in ignorance, relying in other scriptures to denounce the WORDS OF CHRIST! THE VERY ONE WHOM THESE PEOPLE CLAIM TO FOLLOW! Do they not know that scripture does not contradict itself?? He who hates his brother whom he can see how can you say you love God whom you cannot see?!? If you do not forgive you too shall not be forgiven!!

JESUS TAUGHT IN PARABLES FOR THESE REASONS, anyone who lacks understanding in these truths remains in DARKNESS.. Its clear to see who you all are too. Dont deceive yourselves. GOD SEES EVERYTHING! Empty words are meaningless. It takes faith put into practice! Doers of the Word not only hearers of the Word. The righteous shall LIVE BY FAITH!
 

TLC209

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#28
You have a habit of jumping into other people's discussion and add nothing to them, other than making personal attacks.

You can learn things from Hebrews even though its not the tribulation yet. All scripture is written for our benefit.
Its a public forum. Its not jumping into peoples conversation. You should take your own advice and learn from Hebrews. It tears apart your entire false belief.
 

TLC209

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#29
Wait, are you saying you see no difference between the 2 covenants, Law and Grace?

Are you a red letter Christian?
This right here is the biggest joke of a fraud ive heard on this entire site! Red letter Christian? You mean the Words Jesus Spoke? That the Christian you are referring to? And what does that make the opposite? Answer that question Guojing... what does that make YOU?
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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#30
This right here is the biggest joke of a fraud ive heard on this entire site! Red letter Christian? You mean the Words Jesus Spoke? That the Christian you are referring to? And what does that make the opposite? Answer that question Guojing... what does that make YOU?
Try googling that term, its an actual group of Christians in existence.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#31
Reread Romans 5:10. It is as clear as daylight that once a person has become His through being reconciled and made sons (while formerly were enemies), he shall be (future tense) saved by His life. (this includes His present intercession as High Priest in heaven.)

Romans 5:10 KJV
[10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Here, I'll add one more for good measure...

John 5:24 KJV
[24] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Still don't know how these verses relate to OSAS issue.. They are about how one enters into a state of being saved..
 

Guojing

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#32
Its a public forum. Its not jumping into peoples conversation. You should take your own advice and learn from Hebrews. It tears apart your entire false belief.
I do learn plenty from Hebrews, just as I do from James.
 

TLC209

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#33
Try googling that term, its an actual group of Christians in existence.
I googled it.. guess what. Says they follow the new testament teachings primarily on what Jesus taught. Go figure! Thats what Christians are supposed to do! Follow Christ! Christ is the head of the church. It is because of Christ we are saved! So why would you feel the need to bring that up in this discussion? And imply no need to be embarassed?? Ashamed of Christ?? Are you kidding me?

Answer my question guojing.. what does that make you since you are not a red letter Christian..?
 

dodgingstones

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#34
At this point had Peter been converted -Lu 22:32-(aka born again)?
This is where the issue hinges.
Otherwise people's salvation is dependent on whether or not they forgive others.
The Lord's Prayer comes to mind, but I guess it isn't that important?
 

dodgingstones

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#35
Without God's forgiveness, can we be saved? Another thought:

Did you know that Christ said the same thing in John 3.16 as He did in Matthew 24.13? It's true!

How does this fit in?

[if u doubt, ask Sister Angela to tell you the correct translation for believer in John 3.16]
 

Guojing

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#36
I googled it.. guess what. Says they follow the new testament teachings primarily on what Jesus taught. Go figure! Thats what Christians are supposed to do! Follow Christ! Christ is the head of the church. It is because of Christ we are saved! So why would you feel the need to bring that up in this discussion? And imply no need to be embarassed?? Ashamed of Christ?? Are you kidding me?

Answer my question guojing.. what does that make you since you are not a red letter Christian..?
I like to understand where other people come from, the background of their doctrine. This is so that I can understand better their point of view.

You should try that sometimes too. It will make discussions more cordial and more Christian like.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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#37
26 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.

I have emphasised additional red letters for the red letter words. In case anybody misses this scripture.
 

TLC209

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#38
I like to understand where other people come from, the background of their doctrine. This is so that I can understand better their point of view.

You should try that sometimes too. It will make discussions more cordial and more Christian like.
Ive been going back and forth with you for MONTHS. Youre not a Christian. So quit wavering from the question. The answer you were looking for is "charlatan".
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#39
Was Peter a believer ?? Well at the time Jesus spoke these words to Jesus Peter was a follower of Jesus but Peter along with the other apostles did not really become Christian believers until the Day of pentecost when they recieved the Holy Spirit and where given understanding of the Way of salvation.. This is not scripturally correct. They believed in Jesus long before Pentecost. Nowhere in scripture will you be able to find support for this statement you just made. Pentecost was not about the disciples first believing. It was about the empowering gift of the Holy Spirit coming to dwell in the believer. Faith in Christ and the Gift of the Holy Spirit are two distinct events. First you believe, THEN you receive the gift. Jesus' command is to believe in Him. This the disciples did, long before Pentecost.
Matthew 16: KJV
21 "¶ From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. {22} Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. {23} But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men."

If Peter was a believer in the Atonement that the LORD Jesus would secure by His death on the cross Peter would never have reacted like this.. Rebuking Jesus and telling Him that he would not be killed.. Peter would have accepted this statement of Jesus, knowing it was the Atoning sacrifice of Jesus that would see him saved..

Lets look at the reaction of the 11 apostles when the woman came back from the tomb to tell them that Jesus had risen from the dead..

Luke 24: KJV
9 "And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. {10} It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. {11} And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not."

So if Peter and the other Apostles believed Jesus when he said He would rise again from the dead, Why did they disbelieve the report of the woman that Jesus was risen?

So no Peter was not a Christian until he understood and had accepted the Way of Salvation Jesus had provided to Peter on the cross.. Before he came to that knowledge He did not understand the Way of salvation..
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
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#40
Matthew 18
21
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

This is very clearly in line with the doctrine of eternal security....


When we are born again, and made sons or daughters of God He places a new heart within us. This new heart nor what it produces will save us, the righteousness of Christ will still be what justifies us come judgement.

That being said, a born again son of God is not going to think it's ok to do what that servant did. Not only do we have the indwelling Holy spirit to convict us and show us when we are wrong or how to walk in Gods will but God has given us new hearts which DESIRE to conform to His will.


This servant not only made the first offence, to place his hands on the indebted, but did not forgive him in verse 30... also to place this person in prison until they pay is completely void of love.


These verses are not a what to do and not to do list to make it, but a demonstration of what Gods power looks like in the hearts of His children....


We don't only forgive 70 x 70.... we never do not forgive....


The goggles you wear probably make every verse a how to save yourself or condemn yourself type of deal... but nope... this has nothing to do with the "loss of salvation" and much to do with our new hearts in regards to forgiveness