Determinism??

[eternally-gratefull]

Um, no, cutting and pasting to fit what you wanted me to be saying simply doesn't cut it with me. Dink has nothing to do with philosophies. Dink is God saving us.

My response was not to dink. My response was in you saying God saved you before you even knew you needed him (which would not be true, except in the means of predestination, as per Gods foreknowledge)

the fact is, you were dead in tresspasses and sin until you were justified, You were not justified until you had faith. not on nanosecond sooner.

If you did not know you needed God you could not have faith. so you could not be saved.

and I did not cut and post. I quoted what you said. so not sure what your trying to get at.

 

[atwhatcost]

free will is simple.

You come to a stop sign, you can stop or run it, Turn right or left or go straight, you must make a choice what you will do. if you make the wrong choice (ie run the stop sign) and get injured or killed by your action. its your fault.

non free will is simple. You come to that same stop sign, You have no choice in what you will do. You will do what God says you will do. If God says run the stop sign, and you are killed by a car who was driving in the cross street. You were not killed by your own action. God killed you by forcing you to run the stop sign.

Post modernism is a danger, not because of a particular free will defenition. but because of what it is teaching, so not sure how it relates.

Yeah, so not going to look at the link? Okay. So much for dialog.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yeah, so not going to look at the link? Okay. So much for dialog.

1. Why should I look at the link? (what link, I have not even seen it)
2. We are talking about what is free will. do I need to look at some link to see what free will is?
3. Can you not tell me what you think free will is?

yeah your right. no dialogue, I explained how I see free will. and you got mad because I did not follow some link (thats sad)

 

[atwhatcost]

But there is no merit in our personal faith. Our faith deserves nothing. We get no credit for our faith.

We have 3 systems of perception......rationalism,empiricism and faith.

Faith is the system of perception that has not merit in and of itself in these 3 perceptions.

Coming out of Arminianism and into Calvinism is the problem here. We still have a tendency to believe that our faith has merit and deserves something. It is ingrained in us that our faith has merit. The Arminian teaches(pounds it into us) that our faith had merit and you deserve salvation by your faith. If you lose faith, you lose salvation. But it was not our faith that had merit. It was the OBJECT(Christ) of our faith that has the merit.

And you are right, we were dead......spiritually. Not physically. If we were dead,dead,dead......how could we even sin?

God has set eternity on every mans heart,Ecc 3:11. And every man has a measure of freewill faith that is undeserving in and of itself.

It is like eating, every man can swallow his food. And there is no merit in it, the merit is in the food.

It is like eating, in a way, but it is directly related to our nature. We were in the sin nature. Lions are in lion nature. A lion will starve in an orchard, not because they can't get nourishment form fruit, but because it is not in their nature to consider fruit as something to eat. We were in the sin nature, therefore would never consider getting nourishment from God, until he willed us to want it. He is the difference maker, not us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is like eating, in a way, but it is directly related to our nature. We were in the sin nature. Lions are in lion nature. A lion will starve in an orchard, not because they can't get nourishment form fruit, but because it is not in their nature to consider fruit as something to eat. We were in the sin nature, therefore would never consider getting nourishment from God, until he willed us to want it. He is the difference maker, not us.

God is willing that no one should perish.

your right, we can not stop sin until we are born again and can be powered by God. But it does not mean we can not know we are in a desperate situation and need saved.

 

[atwhatcost]

1. Why should I look at the link? (what link, I have not even seen it)
2. We are talking about what is free will. do I need to look at some link to see what free will is?
3. Can you not tell me what you think free will is?

yeah your right. no dialogue, I explained how I see free will. and you got mad because I did not follow some link (thats sad)

Exactly. You didn't start from the beginning of this thread or even the beginning of anyone's thought, but assume you have answers for what we posted way into the conversation. Any particular reason I should keep going back to explain to someone what I believe every time the next person jumps into the middle of the conversation too? (Have you seen some of these threads? Many reach into 20 pages. I think the record is getting close to 300 pages. It gets tiresome to have to explain the obvious definition on page 17, simply because the next person reads the first and last post and assumes he/she is all caught up. This was only on Page 3. I'm not asking you to read the book, just the fairly short story.)

Free will. Yeah, any conversation that has to do with the differences between reformed and other Christians is going to get there quickly. It did. Thus, quickly did I post a link to a thought out answer to why reformers don't buy free will. Instead, you define free will for me, as if I didn't understand the concept and, as if it is the cornerstone to salvation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Exactly. You didn't start from the beginning of this thread or even the beginning of anyone's thought, but assume you have answers for what we posted way into the conversation.

Um yes I did, You did not start the thread, and it was halfway down the first page before you even responded.

Any particular reason I should keep going back to explain to someone what I believe every time the next person jumps into the middle of the conversation too?

Jumps in the middle? hmm,, I guess you have not read everything I have responded to.

(Have you seen some of these threads? Many reach into 20 pages. I think the record is getting close to 300 pages. It gets tiresome to have to explain the obvious definition on page 17, simply because the next person reads the first and last post and assumes he/she is all caught up. This was only on Page 3. I'm not asking you to read the book, just the fairly short story.)

So I am not allowed to share my view and ask questions?

And your right, some are too long, It would take to long to go read everything, so yes, you will have to re-explain things over and over if you plan to be here long, it happens all the time.

Free will. Yeah, any conversation that has to do with the differences between reformed and other Christians is going to get there quickly. It did. Thus, quickly did I post a link to a thought out answer to why reformers don't buy free will. Instead, you define free will for me, as if I didn't understand the concept and, as if it is the cornerstone to salvation.

anytime you get into a calvan vs arminian debate free will is always going to be the topic of discussion. it is the main point which divides them. to say it would never get to that point is to take away its most divisive point.


Free will is the cornerstone of salvation. You can not have faith (assurance or trust) in something if you can not understand it.

We are not talking about sin here, we are talking about being saved. Thats a huge difference, the article (I figured I knew what it would ssay, I have heard it more than enough now) says a person can not chose to do something outside his nature, a sinner will always sin, it is his nature, we do not disagree here. even a sinner can chose not to have sex, But it is still not a righteous act. because they did it for self. not someone else.

Were we do disagree is that a sinner can know he is a sinner, and know he needs saved, and know God sent a savior to save him, and can chose to trust in that salvation.

 

[Gr8grace]

It is like eating, in a way, but it is directly related to our nature. We were in the sin nature. Lions are in lion nature. A lion will starve in an orchard, not because they can't get nourishment form fruit, but because it is not in their nature to consider fruit as something to eat. We were in the sin nature, therefore would never consider getting nourishment from God, until he willed us to want it. He is the difference maker, not us.

I believe that is why Ecc 3:11 is so important. We are depraved in and of ourselves. But God stepped in and placed eternity on every mans heart. We are going to look for something eternal to fill that void that GOD placed in the sinful man.

Ecc 3:11~~New American Standard Bible
He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

 

[atwhatcost]

I believe that is why Ecc 3:11 is so important. We are depraved in and of ourselves. But God stepped in and placed eternity on every mans heart. We are going to look for something eternal to fill that void that GOD placed in the sinful man.

Ecc 3:11~~New American Standard Bible
He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

Amen! (Agreement! )

 

[atwhatcost]

Um yes I did, You did not start the thread, and it was halfway down the first page before you even responded.



Jumps in the middle? hmm,, I guess you have not read everything I have responded to.



So I am not allowed to share my view and ask questions?

And your right, some are too long, It would take to long to go read everything, so yes, you will have to re-explain things over and over if you plan to be here long, it happens all the time.




anytime you get into a calvan vs arminian debate free will is always going to be the topic of discussion. it is the main point which divides them. to say it would never get to that point is to take away its most divisive point.


Free will is the cornerstone of salvation. You can not have faith (assurance or trust) in something if you can not understand it.

We are not talking about sin here, we are talking about being saved. Thats a huge difference, the article (I figured I knew what it would ssay, I have heard it more than enough now) says a person can not chose to do something outside his nature, a sinner will always sin, it is his nature, we do not disagree here. even a sinner can chose not to have sex, But it is still not a righteous act. because they did it for self. not someone else.

Were we do disagree is that a sinner can know he is a sinner, and know he needs saved, and know God sent a savior to save him, and can chose to trust in that salvation.

Spoon fed.

Thanks. Now we're getting somewhere.

So, according to that definition, I am a theistic determinist. I merely do not believe we can't help it.

And, I still don't believe in free will, since will is governed by nature. BUT, I do believe free agency. Here's a link that explains the differences.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I believe that is why Ecc 3:11 is so important. We are depraved in and of ourselves. But God stepped in and placed eternity on every mans heart. We are going to look for something eternal to fill that void that GOD placed in the sinful man.

Ecc 3:11~~New American Standard Bible
He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

yes that is why no man will have an excuse. as paul said in romans 1

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Spoon fed.

spoon fed?

What we mean by denying a (fallen) person has free will is that he/she will act, by necessity, according to the corruption of his/her nature. They are in bondage to sin meaning the love of God and His law are not the unregenerate persons' deepest animating motive and principle (nor is it his motive at all), in anything he does. No one is coercing a sinner to act as they do. Man eagerly volunteers his submission to sin. This means, the unregenerate person will always choose according to who they are by nature, driven by their disposition. In other words, our choices are all voluntary, but we are not free to choose otherwise because we will not understand spiritual things (1 Cor 2:14) and indeed are hostile to them, according to Scripture. Men love darkness and hate the light and will not come into the light (John 3:19, 20) Without the Holy Spirit, man, by nature, is hostile to Christ. In other words, we are in bondage to sin until Christ sets us free. Jesus himself says that a bad tree cannot bear good fruit, that a thornbush cannot bear figs. Jesus is teaching us that the nature of a thing determines BY NECESSITY (not coersion) the direction he/she will take.

thats from the link you posted.

was I wrong?

so do you want to discuss anything, or just make strawman arguments like this.

 

[Gr8grace]

Amen! (Agreement! )

Can I pick your brain for a bit? What about the opposite of salvation?

We both know not all men will be saved. If a man cannot chose the Lord Jesus Christ, How is God Just in His sentencing that man to the LoF?

We have verses that say God Judges the peoples with equity,on the level,with straightness, fairly, a level playing field.

Ps 96:10~~New American Standard Bible
Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved; He will judge the peoples with equity."

Ps 96:13~~New American Standard Bible
Before the LORD, for He is coming, For He is coming to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness And the peoples in His faithfulness.
Ps 98:9~~New American Standard Bible
Before the LORD, for He is coming to judge the earth; He will judge the world with righteousness And the peoples with equity.

Ps 9:8~~New American Standard Bible
And He will judge the world in righteousness; He will execute judgment for the peoples with equity.

If God determined one man to believe and saved him, and determined for another not to believe and sentenced Him to the LoF...........

How can God say he will judge the peoples with equity,on the level,with straightness,fairly if he caused one to believe and didn't allow another to believe?

 

[atwhatcost]

spoon fed?


thats from the link you posted.

was I wrong?

so do you want to discuss anything, or just make strawman arguments like this.

Spoon fed. Since you would not go back for the link, I fed it to you.

Were you wrong?

the point we have to understand, is what is predestination, and what is it based on.

One view states God forces some to heaven, and others to hell. (man has no free will to chose)

One view states God chose based on foreknowledge. (man still has free will)

Yes.

Strawman doesn't really mean "I disagree therefore your definition has no validity."

I admit it. I have a poor memory, but I can go back and copy and paste.

Considering you're always right even when you refute yourself, there really was no discussion, was there? I'm done. You're fine to keep swinging your sword.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Spoon fed. Since you would not go back for the link, I fed it to you.

I did go back to the link. It said exactly what I knew it would say, This I was not spoon fed. Maybe you are?

Were you wrong?

No.

Yes.

Strawman doesn't really mean "I disagree therefore your definition has no validity."

I admit it. I have a poor memory, but I can go back and copy and paste.

Considering you're always right even when you refute yourself, there really was no discussion, was there? I'm done. You're fine to keep swinging your sword.

How did I refute myself? (hence here we have a strawman, an accusation with no proof)

I hate to say it, But I do not think you really want to discuss anything, You just want people to listen to you and thats it, your mind is made up. Thats sad.

 

[atwhatcost]

Can I pick your brain for a bit? What about the opposite of salvation?

We both know not all men will be saved. If a man cannot chose the Lord Jesus Christ, How is God Just in His sentencing that man to the LoF?

We have verses that say God Judges the peoples with equity,on the level,with straightness, fairly, a level playing field.

Ps 96:10~~New American Standard Bible
Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved; He will judge the peoples with equity."

Ps 96:13~~New American Standard Bible
Before the LORD, for He is coming, For He is coming to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness And the peoples in His faithfulness.
Ps 98:9~~New American Standard Bible
Before the LORD, for He is coming to judge the earth; He will judge the world with righteousness And the peoples with equity.

Ps 9:8~~New American Standard Bible
And He will judge the world in righteousness; He will execute judgment for the peoples with equity.

If God determined one man to believe and saved him, and determined for another not to believe and sentenced Him to the LoF...........

How can God say he will judge the peoples with equity,on the level,with straightness,fairly if he caused one to believe and didn't allow another to believe?

What's LoF?

I think I can answer your basic question without knowing what LoF means though.

All people rightfully deserve separation from God, death and hell. It is within God's mercy and love to save some from what we rightfully deserve, not on our merit, but on Jesus' merit. He took what we deserve upon himself. (He was separated from his Father for something he never did, died and went to hell.) He is the sacrificial lamb and the scapegoat in one. So, in true fairness, God really did judge properly and showed mercy on some prisoners. Just not all. And that is within his glory and perfection to do that.

And he did "allow" all to believe.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

and

[h=1]John 6:35-40[/h]35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

We just didn't like the option until he chose us.

 

[Gr8grace]

What's LoF?

I think I can answer your basic question without knowing what LoF means though.

All people rightfully deserve separation from God, death and hell. It is within God's mercy and love to save some from what we rightfully deserve, not on our merit, but on Jesus' merit. He took what we deserve upon himself. (He was separated from his Father for something he never did, died and went to hell.) He is the sacrificial lamb and the scapegoat in one. So, in true fairness, God really did judge properly and showed mercy on some prisoners. Just not all. And that is within his glory and perfection to do that.

And he did "allow" all to believe.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

and

John 6:35-40

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

We just didn't like the option until he chose us.

Thanks for your time.

edit: Sorry, LoF..... Lake of Fire

 

[MarcR]

Okay, then what is our faith, our choice and our accepting if not our deserving by some magnificent (or minor) gesture?

(And yeah, all will acknowledge Jesus. We don't disagree on most things. lol)

Jesus said: Jn 15:16
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
KJV;

and I do not dispute that God chooses to whom He will give faith to believe.

I believe there is Scriptural evidence that God elects to make this choice based on unmanipulated foreknowledge of how we will respond to Jesus' claims on our life. I don't believe that God is obliged to choose on this basis--- I believe He elects to do so.

 

[atwhatcost]

Thanks for your time.

edit: Sorry, LoF..... Lake of Fire

Last night, we were watching Return of the King (last movie in the Lord of the Rings -- LotR -- trilogy), so guess why I wasn't getting LoF. lol

 

[Gr8grace]

Last night, we were watching Return of the King (last movie in the Lord of the Rings -- LotR -- trilogy), so guess why I wasn't getting LoF. lol

Great movies!