Did GOD give any Laws to people before Moses?

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jamessb

Active member
Feb 10, 2024
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Santa Fe NM
#61
Re the OP question...

Genesis 2:15-17, "The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

So there were commandments from God from the very beginning.
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,895
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Oregon
#62
~
Re: Gen 26:5 . . . Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my
charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.


Jews sometimes use that passage to prove Abraham's association with God
was regulated by the covenant that Moses' people entered into with God per
Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, but he was clearly excluded.

"The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. Not with our
forefathers did The Lord make this covenant, but with us, we, all of whom
are here alive today." (Deut 5:2-3)

Moses' covenant is a legal system that compels its participants to comply or
else suffer specific consequences, whereas Abraham's association with God
was based upon an honor system wherein there are no specific consequences
for non compliance.

For example: Moses' covenant prohibits dishonesty.

"Do not lie; do not deceive one another." (Lev 19:11)

When Moses' people fail to comply with that rule they get slammed with a
curse.

"Cursed is the man who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying
them out." (Deut 27:26)

Well; as all Bible readers know; Abraham wasn't entirely honest about his
relationship with Sarah. But Abraham wasn't cursed for attempting to
deceive certain folks with a half-truth because his association with God
wasn't regulated by Moses' covenant. Christ's followers enjoy the very same
advantage.

"Sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law" (Rom 6:14)

"My brethren, you are become dead to the law by the body of Christ" (Rom
7:4)
_
 

SabbathBlessing

Well-known member
Dec 13, 2023
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#63
Yes. But this is what God's word has to say:

"For the law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship." Hebrews 10:1

"…16Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ." Colossians 2: 16 & 17

I do not make these things up.

"8Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it legitimately. 9We realize that law is not enacted for the righteous, but for the lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinful, for the unholy and profane, for killers of father or mother, for murderers,…"
1 Timothy 1:8 & 9

In context, this is referring to the law of Moses. You obviously disagree. I'll say no more about it.
These scriptures has been addressed previously you can find here https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-his-commandments.212202/page-20#post-5247748
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#64
Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in disobedience to God's instructions, so it does make any sense for you to try to associate as being like obedience to God's instructions. There are a number of ways where Eve's desire influenced her judgement (Genesis 3:6) and our desire clouds our judgement of what is right and wrong because by ourselves we can't be sure if something is truly good or if we just think that it is good because we desire it, so eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is about leaning on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes rather than trusting in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong through obeying His instructions in all of our ways and He will make our way straight (Proverbs 3:5-7).

Before Adam and Eve had eaten from either tree, they were at a crossroads between mortality and eternal life, where eating from the Tree of Knowledge caused them to become mortal while eating from the Tree of Life would have caused them to have eternal life. In Romans 10:5-8, it references Deuteronomy 30:11-20 as the word of faith that we proclaim, where the Israelites were at the same crossroads between life and a blessing for obedience to God's law or death and a curse for disobedience, so the verse that you cited undermines you claim that the law brings death instead of life.

In Deuteronomy 32:46-47, God's law is our very life. In Proverbs 3:18, it is a Tree of Life for all who take hold of it. In Proverb 6:23, for the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light, and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life. In Revelation 22:18, those who obeyed God's commandments are given the right to eat from the Tree of Life. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments of the Mosaic Law. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments. In Romans 2:6-7, those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life. In Romans 6:19-23, no longer presenting ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin is contrasted with now presenting ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so getting to live in obedience to God's law is the content of His gift of eternal life.

This is not different from the Tree of Life being the Gospel of Christ because in Matthew 4:15-23, he began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and the Mosaic Law is how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of Christ. The Mosaic Law is God's word and it is contradictory to think that we should trust in God's word made flesh for eternal life, but not in God's word.
Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in disobedience to God's instructions, so it does make any sense for you to try to associate as being like obedience to God's instructions.

i don’t think you understand what anyone else is saying because of this the same issue has always been around

“and not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:13-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬


as long as you believe that God spoke to all nations through Moses mediation or the law ordained of angels , as Lon as you thiink that’s Gods Judgement and eternal covenant with all nations based on Abraham’s promise you are wearing a blindfold and mixing two covenants with two different functions and purposes together tbat have contrary laws for contrary purposes. trying to obey moses words and also Jesus words is a contradiction because they taught contrary things

moses law came along after man became wicked , after the floods after the dividing of the nations across the earth , after Abraham Isaac and Jacob

then a few hundred years later moses met an angel who was sent by God and who spoke on Gods behalf to deliver the children of Israel from slavery in Egypt . After he delivered them he gave them a law for the land of promise thier inheritance according to the promise made to Abram the Hebrew four hundred years beforehand

There’s a new covenant now the old one was fulfilled as a Curse because tbey broke it and Jerusalem was leveled and thier temple was destroyed because when thoer messiah came forth to restore them , they thier leaders and priests and scribes and teachers and elders accused him of blasphemy and had him killed on a cross

You are like the Jews in the gospel you can’t hear Jesus because you have no room in you for his words it’s filled with Moses commands your convinced that’s what God said to you and everyone else but what Jesus said is what God has said first to israel who had a law and covenant between they and god

and then beginning with those Jews who believed him sent from Jerusalem to gentiles who nEver had any covenant with God spoken by Moses between him and the blood descendants of Abram the Hebrew.

Thier one and only mediator is Jesus thier one and only Lord is Jesus the only sacrifice for thier sins is Jesus dying in the cross , and their only justification is Jesus being raised up from the dead and ascending to the right hand of God , thier only life is the spirit of Jesus sent into thier hearts by faith through the promises of the gospel

moses covenant word isn’t the right word for Christian’s but you can’t hear that part because your convinced that an ancient law made wi to a particular flesh and blood people is for you today

But

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: and they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:5-6, 10-11, 22-24‬ ‭

You have to find the right covenant and beer and follow that covenant word one was spoken by moses and is not of faith

one was spoken by Christ and is of faith





his words are those they seek and believe and hear and follow the things he promised not the things Moses promised those folk we as Christian’s are t going to inherit the Jerusalem in this earth but the one in heaven where the king is in his throne
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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113
#65
[QUOTE="vassal, post: 5256281, member: 328741]Interesting Nehemiah, the natural laws I was kind of thinking the same but have trouble defining them in a biblical context, if you could share your views on this it would be helpful. [/QUOTE]We get only glimpses of this in Genesis chapter 1. There is a reason for not having any details in that chapter.

THE CYCLE OF NIGHT AND DAY
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

THE REPRODUCTIVE CYCLE AND GENETIC LAWS
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

THE MOVEMENT OF HEAVENLY BODIES, THE CALENDAR, AND HOLY DAYS
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
"Let them be for signs" could mean how the appearance of the moon regulated the feasts and festivals in Israel. The Bible speaks of new moons (Isa 66:23).

BIOLOGY, ZOOLOGY, BIOCHEMISTRY, AND ANIMAL AND BIRD INSTINCTS
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

VARIETY OF CREATURES AND REPRODUCTIVE LAWS
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Everything written in Job 38-41 could have been included in Genesis chapter 1, but that was not God's plan. The Bible says that God created everything in His wisdom, and in His wisdom He reserved the details for the book of Job. Which would allow us to focus on the broader aspects of creation.
I have always wondered how at a very young age we have a strong inward knowledge of that is right and wrong, I know education is a big part of it but sometimes I wonder if these behaviours are not embedded within us in the way birds know where and when to migrate. It is a crazy theory but sometimes I wonder. thank you.
That is not a "crazy theory" but a Bible fact.

THE NATURE OF HUMANS AND THE CONSCIENCE IN MAN
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

"The image of God" has many aspects. We have a mind, a will, and emotions. We also have a conscience -- the innate ability to distinguish between right and wrong (see Romans 2). Unlike other creatures we have an immaterial spirit which is able to communicate directly with God and also worship Him "in spirit and in truth". And I would say that the eternal Son of God always had a physical and human aspect. Thus "after our likeness" . So when the Bible says that the LORD God was "walking in the Garden" (Gen 3:8) that would have been the Son of God in human form coming to meet with Adam and Eve. Thus we also have various pre-incarnate appearances of Christ in human form, either as "the Angel of the LORD" or as "the Word". And once as Melchizedek, king of Salem.

But ultimately God had planned to bring Jesus of Nazareth to earth so that after His resurrection He would be "the Man Christ Jesus" in Heaven -- our Mediator. In fact God saw Christ as the Lamb of God even BEFORE the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1: 20). And He also saw the Church as the "elect" Body of Christ at that time (Eph 1:4).
 

vassal

Well-known member
Jan 20, 2024
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#66
[QUOTE="vassal, post: 5256281, member: 328741]Interesting Nehemiah, the natural laws I was kind of thinking the same but have trouble defining them in a biblical context, if you could share your views on this it would be helpful.
We get only glimpses of this in Genesis chapter 1. There is a reason for not having any details in that chapter.

THE CYCLE OF NIGHT AND DAY
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

THE REPRODUCTIVE CYCLE AND GENETIC LAWS
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

THE MOVEMENT OF HEAVENLY BODIES, THE CALENDAR, AND HOLY DAYS
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
"Let them be for signs" could mean how the appearance of the moon regulated the feasts and festivals in Israel. The Bible speaks of new moons (Isa 66:23).

BIOLOGY, ZOOLOGY, BIOCHEMISTRY, AND ANIMAL AND BIRD INSTINCTS
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

VARIETY OF CREATURES AND REPRODUCTIVE LAWS
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Everything written in Job 38-41 could have been included in Genesis chapter 1, but that was not God's plan. The Bible says that God created everything in His wisdom, and in His wisdom He reserved the details for the book of Job. Which would allow us to focus on the broader aspects of creation.

That is not a "crazy theory" but a Bible fact.

THE NATURE OF HUMANS AND THE CONSCIENCE IN MAN
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

"The image of God" has many aspects. We have a mind, a will, and emotions. We also have a conscience -- the innate ability to distinguish between right and wrong (see Romans 2). Unlike other creatures we have an immaterial spirit which is able to communicate directly with God and also worship Him "in spirit and in truth". And I would say that the eternal Son of God always had a physical and human aspect. Thus "after our likeness" . So when the Bible says that the LORD God was "walking in the Garden" (Gen 3:8) that would have been the Son of God in human form coming to meet with Adam and Eve. Thus we also have various pre-incarnate appearances of Christ in human form, either as "the Angel of the LORD" or as "the Word". And once as Melchizedek, king of Salem.

But ultimately God had planned to bring Jesus of Nazareth to earth so that after His resurrection He would be "the Man Christ Jesus" in Heaven -- our Mediator. In fact God saw Christ as the Lamb of God even BEFORE the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1: 20). And He also saw the Church as the "elect" Body of Christ at that time (Eph 1:4).[/QUOTE]

Brilliant, your post explains quite a lot!

I think also it would make a nice thread, many would appreciate this.

Thank you!
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#67
I think also it would make a nice thread, many would appreciate this.
You could go ahead and use it in your own thread. Maybe with a title like "God's natural and laws are perfect - just like God".
 

vassal

Well-known member
Jan 20, 2024
805
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63
#68
You could go ahead and use it in your own thread. Maybe with a title like "God's natural and laws are perfect - just like God".
If I do I will quote you as the source if it's alright?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#69
If I do I will quote you as the source if it's alright?
Sure. But add your own thoughts. Also quote Romans 2:9-16 to confirm the existence of the conscience in all mankind (including those who are not saved). Also Acts 17:24-31 to confirm that all men should seek the Lord. This ties in with the conscience, therefore God now commands all men everywhere to repent.
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
2,082
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#70
Let him defend himself.

Too far? You mean like claiming others don't love God and are not in His will because they don't use the 10 Commandments as their life template? Warning others of impending doom of they don't ascribe to his version of Judaism.
Too far as in taking the Sabbath to such a legal extreme (which I don't see him as doing). I realized when I made the post it might be a little vague what I meant but since I wasn't sure I figured you might respond if it were. Apologies if any consternation occurred.

My goal was merely to center issues with the Sabbath around Romans 14:5 & Philippians 2:12. For both parties (ideally).

That's the only peace I get and I'd encourage anyone to turn there as a starting place/ending place.

Take care, I have read through your posts and have appreciated them in the past.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
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#71
Too far as in taking the Sabbath to such a legal extreme (which I don't see him as doing). I realized when I made the post it might be a little vague what I meant but since I wasn't sure I figured you might respond if it were. Apologies if any consternation occurred.

My goal was merely to center issues with the Sabbath around Romans 14:5 & Philippians 2:12. For both parties (ideally).

That's the only peace I get and I'd encourage anyone to turn there as a starting place/ending place.

Take care, I have read through your posts and have appreciated them in the past.
Nothing about their doctrine that says people who don’t observe the Sabbath are disobeying God and are not His? That’s not extreme?

My response was reflective of several men I know. One was a prophet who goaded the false prophets when calling upon their god.

“Cry aloud, for he is a god; either he is meditating, or he is busy, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is sleeping and must be awakened.” 28 So they cried aloud, and cut themselves, as was their custom, with knives and lances, until the blood gushed out on them.”

And another who wished the Judaizers, preaching the law and circumcision, would emasculate themselves.

As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!”
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
2,082
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#72
Nothing about their doctrine that says people who don’t observe the Sabbath are disobeying God and are not His? That’s not extreme?

My response was reflective of several men I know. One was a prophet who goaded the false prophets when calling upon their god.

“Cry aloud, for he is a god; either he is meditating, or he is busy, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is sleeping and must be awakened.” 28 So they cried aloud, and cut themselves, as was their custom, with knives and lances, until the blood gushed out on them.”

And another who wished the Judaizers, preaching the law and circumcision, would emasculate themselves.

As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!”
did you read Romans 14:5? Philippians 2:12?

Is it possible to grant that since you haven't ever considered "one day above another" that it's difficult to see things from the perspective of someone that does/has? You do you. If you consider "each day holy alike" then great.

Is it possible that a brother can struggle with being pharasaical and NOT be a pharisee? Likewise can someone struggle with viewing grace too liberally and dabble with licentiousness and STILL be a believer? Both of these are serious extremes in the church and BOTH lead to death when certain boundaries are crossed.

I have no idea where this line is for each person (Philippians 2:12) but for me it is important to recognize what I cannot know and what I cannot see. I cannot see clearly enough to take the speck out when there is a plank in my own eye...but I can't see the plank because it's a spiritual principle so I can only check myself and take inventory as I move along. I cannot understand certain struggles because I do not have them.

Just take a look at the verse and even if you don't think it applies in this situation it's one way to find peace about opposing viewpoints within the body of Christ.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
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#73
did you read Romans 14:5? Philippians 2:12?

Is it possible to grant that since you haven't ever considered "one day above another" that it's difficult to see things from the perspective of someone that does/has? You do you. If you consider "each day holy alike" then great.

Is it possible that a brother can struggle with being pharasaical and NOT be a pharisee? Likewise can someone struggle with viewing grace too liberally and dabble with licentiousness and STILL be a believer? Both of these are serious extremes in the church and BOTH lead to death when certain boundaries are crossed.

I have no idea where this line is for each person (Philippians 2:12) but for me it is important to recognize what I cannot know and what I cannot see. I cannot see clearly enough to take the speck out when there is a plank in my own eye...but I can't see the plank because it's a spiritual principle so I can only check myself and take inventory as I move along. I cannot understand certain struggles because I do not have them.

Just take a look at the verse and even if you don't think it applies in this situation it's one way to find peace about opposing viewpoints within the body of Christ.
No issue with someone preferring a day above others. That’s not their schtick. Their doctrine requires adherence to the old covenant. That is exactly what the early church dealt with. Paul’s instructions are clear:

But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

This is in Galatian 4. If they so chose, in their immaturity, to observe the sabbath so be it. Then they can do it quietly. But they are claiming (and often) that others who don’t think like them are not in Christ and are those whom Christ disavows. There is no peace to be had with such garbage doctrine.
 

SabbathBlessing

Well-known member
Dec 13, 2023
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#74
A bondwomen is someone who is a salve to sin, Paul uses this analogy a few different ways. A freewomen who is someone who has been free from sin - Sin is the transgression of God's law 1 John 3:4 and Paul points right to the Ten Commandments that defines sin Romans 7:7 same ones Jesus does Math 5:19-30 teaching not to break the least of these because breaking one is like breaking them all James 2:10-12

God said the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God Exo 20:10 His holy day Isa 58:13 made for mankind Mark 2:27 that Jesus is Lord of Mar 2:28 that He said it made to bless everyone who does not profane Eze 56:1-6 and sanctify Eze 20:12 as only God can sanctify us, we can't sanctify ourselves. The Sabbath is a commandment of God even in the NC Luke 23:56 that Jesus kept Luke 4:16 and the apostles kept decades after the Cross Acts 14:42-44, Acts 18:4 and will be kept for eternity thus saith the Lord Isa 66:22-23. Jesus said not one jot or tittle could be changed from His law- it is what we should live by His every Word Mat 4:4 and teach others Mat 5:19
 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
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#75
Before Adam and Eve had eaten from either tree, they were at a crossroads between mortality and eternal life, where eating from the Tree of Knowledge caused them to become mortal while eating from the Tree of Life would have caused them to have eternal life.
While I agree that it is written that the LORD God told the man that he may freely eat of every tree of the garden, since man has free will he can eat from whatever tree he wants, so are saying that God told Adam that Adam could not eat from the tree in the midst of the garden?

If the tree of knowledge of good and evil also in the midst of the garden and the tree of life, then how would you distinguish between the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. Genesis 2:2-3

While a good tree brings forth good fruit, and an evil tree brings forth evil fruit, what fruit does an imaginary tree bring forth? Would you believe the mixed nuts that are the fruit of a tree yielding seed.