Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Niki7]

If I claimed that I was no longer a sinner, then I would be a liar - just as the Bible says!

The truth here? You make yourself a liar by saying that you are not fully justified before God through the blood of Christ.

Kindly note I am not calling you a liar.

I don't care at all for some of the smart aleck comments people often make. The truth of scripture is obliterated by those who prefer to make excuses for failure to achieve the very high standards of God; which can only be met in Christ. We are never told to somehow 'hit the mark' because we CANNOT.

Many people would greatly benefit to do an in depth study of all that we have obtained through God's Son. Far too many think salvation is a one off and then we struggle but we are still saved when the Bible promises victory that we can never attain by ourselves but we have that victory because of Jesus who overcame ALL for US.

 

[Niki7]

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

No one has said they have no sin.

Can you find a post somewhere where someone said they have no sin, do not sin etc?

We (believers) are declared RIGHTEOUS which is the opposite of someone saying they are a sinner.

God does not see us as 'sinners' but forgiven through the blood of Christ. This is not saying we never sin. You cannot just flip a verse into a post and think you have the ground covered.

Do you have any idea of how many scriptures deal with how God now sees those who are forgiven or all that we have now become because we have accepted Christ?

 

[Niki7]

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. That doesn’t sound like everybody!

How do you come to that conclusion from the scriptures in your post? Even so, do those scriptures cancel all other verses?

(honestly taken aback at your post)

 

[BillyBob]

If you were still actually considered to be a sinner in the eyes of God, you would not be a believer.

I guess we see this differently!
I know that I am still a sinner and I grieve the fact that this is so! It makes me mourn the fact that Christ had to endure the cross for such as myself. It makes me wonder how many times I sin and don't even realize that it happened. Maybe this is a thorn that I must endure.
Therefore, even though forgiven, I continue to ask that I may overcome my failures both known and unknown. Guess I'll leave it at that!

 

[Niki7]

I guess we see this differently!
I know that I am still a sinner and I grieve the fact that this is so! It makes me mourn the fact that Christ had to endure the cross for such as myself. It makes me wonder how many times I sin and don't even realize that it happened. Maybe this is a thorn that I must endure.
Therefore, even though forgiven, I continue to ask that I may overcome my failures both known and unknown.

Yes. I see what scripture states and you do not.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

So when God RESCUES a helpless, hapless, hopeless, self-deceived sinner (Col 1:13) you view that gracious rescue operation as God forcing his will upon the sinner? God violated the free moral agency of the sinner even though He did something for the sinner that sinner could never do for himself in a thousand lifetimes!?

Lol

You want me to believe they are not so helpless.

remember, God gave them new birth so they are not so helpless so they could in turn trust him.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I certainly did, but not until my heart was ripped out and replaced with a brand new heart. I hope you experience the same some day.

Actually, I experienced that AFTER I called out to God for his salvation.

God did not think I was something so special he just chose me while allowing many others to drown in hell with no chance

 

[Niki7]

I guess we see this differently!
I know that I am still a sinner and I grieve the fact that this is so! It makes me mourn the fact that Christ had to endure the cross for such as myself. It makes me wonder how many times I sin and don't even realize that it happened. Maybe this is a thorn that I must endure.
Therefore, even though forgiven, I continue to ask that I may overcome my failures both known and unknown. Guess I'll leave it at that!

I still sin. I am impatient, not the best example of the love of Christ, I have made bad and sinful decisions, I have thoughts I do not care to share with others, and various other and sundry things.

Gee. I am exactly the kind of person Jesus died for! How wonderful!

BUT if those things were what God saw when He considered me, I would be on my way to an eternity without God.

People who identify as 'still a sinner' tend to look down instead of up.

Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus being in Philippi, with the overseers and deacons: Phil. 1:1

Do you know that Paul wrote every letter with the salutation to the people receiving it, as SAINTS? The only letter in which he did not address the recipients as saints, was the letter to the Galatians.

Paul did not write dear sinners and reprobates and filthy non-overcomers.

 

[Rufus]

And you might want to read the Law of Moses to understand that there were 613 ways the people could have sinned against God. The Ten Commandments are but a primer to God's holy law -- Law101.

Verse 35 is just one example of what happens when you sin against God. In Noah's day, the whole world suffered. There's example after example. You try to single one verse and attach it like a one time event. That's typical of your doctrine. Remove a single verse with a meaning with many verses and take that single verse out of complete context to make it into a FALSE meaning. You are once again doing the same thing. It's a Reformed thing and you misuse scripture 90% of the time.[/QUOTE]

The plague God brought upon the Jews in Ex 32:35 was an actual historical event because God punished them for a particular sin that they committed at a particular time. The world today is still filled with sinners yet, God doesn't bring plagues upon each and every sinner, does he? I don't suppose you can tell us why God brought that particular plague upon the Israelites at that particular time, could you?

 

[Rufus]

Actually, I experienced that AFTER I called out to God for his salvation.

God did not think I was something so special he just chose me while allowing many others to drown in hell with no chance

But you do think that you're super special because you have an ability that God doesn't have! Unlike God's will, yours is autonomous and is free to rise above the very nature in which it is grounded!

And we Reformed folks don't think we are special whatsoever because we know that God's election doesn't find its ground in us in any way, shape or form -- but only in God's sovereign grace. He chose us in spite of ourselves not because of ourselves. He took us out of the lump of sinful humanity and made us a new lump.

Rom 9:21
21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the SAME lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
NIV

And,

Eph 2:3
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

 

[Rufus]

[QUOTE="Niki7, post: 5280242, member: 321629"]The Bible never addresses believers in Christ as sinners. Sadly, this is an all too popular understanding of the fact that as a Christian we will still sin.

BUT unlike those without Christ, our sins are forgiven. Some have the idea that every time we might sin, we must be re-saved. Some believe that what the flesh does, is not of importance. Some think they still have to obey the 10 commandments. Some believe the Bible calls Christians sinners but it does NOT.

16From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
19that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
21For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

If you were still actually considered to be a sinner in the eyes of God, you would not be a believer.[/QUOTE]

This is because positionally God sees his elect as righteous as the Savior in whom God placed them. However, God's imputed righteousness to us does not equate as practical perfection in this age since we still possess Adam's sin nature. In this age, we are working out our salvation (not to be confused as "working for" our salvation). I believe brother BB was referring to himself as a "sinner" in this latter practical everyday life sense.

 

[Rufus]

Actually, I experienced that AFTER I called out to God for his salvation.

God did not think I was something so special he just chose me while allowing many others to drown in hell with no chance

Question: Is God morally obligated to save anyone? Just because you think he saved you, does that mean, then, that your salvation makes it morally necessary for God to save everyone...or at least attempt to save everyone else?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Question: Is God morally obligated to save anyone?

Actually. we all deserve hell.. But God so loved the world. he gave his only son, that whoever in that world believes will never die.l

Just because you think he saved you, does that mean, then, that your salvation makes it morally necessary for God to save everyone...or at least attempt to save everyone else?

God said he is a god of love

Satan said God is not a god of love, he wants to pull our strings and get us to do what he wants.

Your belief system supports satans view of God more than it does Gods view

 

[Niki7]

Question: Is God morally obligated to save anyone? Just because you think he saved you, does that mean, then, that your salvation makes it morally necessary for God to save everyone...or at least attempt to save everyone else?

For God so LOVED the world. Still in most Bibles everywhere and still true.

You are not morally obligated to believe it, but might change your attitude if you did

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Question: Is God morally obligated to save anyone? Just because you think he saved you, does that mean, then, that your salvation makes it morally necessary for God to save everyone...or at least attempt to save everyone else?

Gee, that's cold! God did say that He provided salvation for everyone if they choose to accept it.

1 Timothy 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

I don't know how you can miss that.


🚀

 

[Niki7]

[QUOTE="Niki7, post: 5280242, member: 321629"]The Bible never addresses believers in Christ as sinners. Sadly, this is an all too popular understanding of the fact that as a Christian we will still sin.

BUT unlike those without Christ, our sins are forgiven. Some have the idea that every time we might sin, we must be re-saved. Some believe that what the flesh does, is not of importance. Some think they still have to obey the 10 commandments. Some believe the Bible calls Christians sinners but it does NOT.

16From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
19that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
21For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

If you were still actually considered to be a sinner in the eyes of God, you would not be a believer.

This is because positionally God sees his elect as righteous as the Savior in whom God placed them. However, God's imputed righteousness to us does not equate as practical perfection in this age since we still possess Adam's sin nature. In this age, we are working out our salvation (not to be confused as "working for" our salvation). I believe brother BB was referring to himself as a "sinner" in this latter practical everyday life sense.[/QUOTE]


We do not work out salvation. I don't even know what language I would need to help you out here.

Are you brother BB's lawyer? Positionally of course

YEAH we are positionally in the position of salvation. Would you like to be somewhere else?

THAT is where God sees us. Positionally righteous.

You are free to work at whatever it is you think you need to work at/out, but Jesus said 'It is finished' and gave up His life and I am buried with Him, that is the life I now live, I live in Him. Jesus is our Sabbath rest.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

The plague God brought upon the Jews in Ex 32:35 was an actual historical event because God punished them for a particular sin that they committed at a particular time. The world today is still filled with sinners yet, God doesn't bring plagues upon each and every sinner, does he? I don't suppose you can tell us why God brought that particular plague upon the Israelites at that particular time, could you?

Every time we see the Wrath of God throughout the Bible is when someone or a group of people have sinned against God. They were blotted out and God dealt with them.

It's because the NR are so well aware of the scripture cherry picking practice Reformers take "PRIDE" in doing we have read the "Entire Bible," not just isolated verses. We know the "whole viewpoint," not just an isolated opinion. We see God for what the "Entire Bible" claims He is and not just what a doctrine has painted. We are careful to not make God into an IDOL conformed by human minds because we use God's Own WORDS describing Himself as our viewpoint.

For 4,000+ years God told man He had MERCY on them.
Paul wrote some 1900+ years ago he was saved by Grace.
The Reformers 400+ years ago turned God's words of MERCY into their version of Grace.
That is IDOLATRY!

 

[Rufus]

Actually. we all deserve hell.. But God so loved the world. he gave his only son, that whoever in that world believes will never die.l


God said he is a god of love

Satan said God is not a god of love, he wants to pull our strings and get us to do what he wants.

Your belief system supports satans view of God more than it does Gods view

Right! You actually got something right for a change. Therefore, NO ONE deserves his grace. So, this renders your earlier objection moot, doesn't it? God certainly has the RIGHT to save all, to save none or to save many, doesn't he? It's certainly not unjust for Him to choose to save many while simultaneously choosing to bypass most. In fact, if memory serves I believe there was a time in human history we he chose to save only a very few, while condemning the rest of humanity.

My "belief system" is thoroughly biblical. Yours unfortunately is in the devil's camp; for your heresy

1. Makes you more powerful than God since, unlike his will, yours is autonomous and can rise above your nature to make choices contrary to it;

2. Renders God's will subservient to yours, otherwise God becomes a monstrous fascist dictator, according to you;

3. Gives you something to boast about, since the obvious difference between your acceptance of the Gospel and other sinners who reject it is ultimately YOU in some way. Smarter? Wiser? Better looking? More spiritual? More righteous? What?

 

[Rufus]

Every time we see the Wrath of God throughout the Bible is when someone or a group of people have sinned against God. They were blotted out and God dealt with them.

It's because the NR are so well aware of the scripture cherry picking practice Reformers take "PRIDE" in doing we have read the "Entire Bible," not just isolated verses. We know the "whole viewpoint," not just an isolated opinion. We see God for what the "Entire Bible" claims He is and not just what a doctrine has painted. We are careful to not make God into an IDOL conformed by human minds because we use God's Own WORDS describing Himself as our viewpoint.

For 4,000+ years God told man He had MERCY on them.
Paul wrote some 1900+ years ago he was saved by Grace.
The Reformers 400+ years ago turned God's words of MERCY into their version of Grace.
That is IDOLATRY!

In other words your form of idolatry is to ignore contexts of passages which allows you to build your entire belief system on pretext. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

 

[selahsays]

Right! You actually got something right for a change. Therefore, NO ONE deserves his grace. So, this renders your earlier objection moot, doesn't it? God certainly has the RIGHT to save all, to save none or to save many, doesn't he? It's certainly not unjust for Him to choose to save many while simultaneously choosing to bypass most. In fact, if memory serves I believe there was a time in human history we he chose to save only a very few, while condemning the rest of humanity.

My "belief system" is thoroughly biblical. Yours unfortunately is in the devil's camp; for your heresy

1. Makes you more powerful than God since, unlike his will, yours is autonomous and can rise above your nature to make choices contrary to it;

2. Renders God's will subservient to yours, otherwise God becomes a monstrous fascist dictator, according to you;

3. Gives you something to boast about, since the obvious difference between your acceptance of the Gospel and other sinners who reject it is ultimately YOU in some way. Smarter? Wiser? Better looking? More spiritual? More righteous? What?

I don’t get unconditional election because it doesn’t make sense to me. I believe election was conditional (for a reason) and, of course, that it took place before the foundation of the world.