Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Rufus]

Yes. That's what the Bible says.

Then God cannot be omniscient. God is just like finite man: He learns, acquires, accumulates and stores knowledge? But thankfully, the bible says differently.

God's Book speaks of people like you:

Ps 50:21
21 These things you have done and I kept silent;
you thought I was altogether like you.
But I will rebuke you
and accuse you to your face.
NIV

Ps 44:20-21
20 If we had forgotten the name of our God
or spread out our hands to a foreign god,
21 would not God have discovered it,
since he knows the secrets of the heart?
NIV

Ps 90:8
8 You have set our iniquities before you,
our secret sins in the light of your presence.
NIV

Ps 139:1-6
For the director of music. Of David. A psalm.

1 O LORD, you have searched me
and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue
you know it completely, O LORD.

5 You hem me in — behind and before;
you have laid your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.

Ps 147:5
5 Great is our Lord and mighty in power;
his understanding has no limit.
NIV

Job 21:22
22 "Can anyone teach knowledge to God,
since he judges even the highest?
NIV

Job 37:16
16 Do you know how the clouds hang poised,
those wonders of him who is perfect in knowledge?
NIV

Prov 21:30
30 There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan
that can succeed against the LORD.
NIV

John 2:24-25
24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all men. 25 He did not need man's testimony about man, for he knew what was in a man.
NIV

1 John 3:20b
20 For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.
NIV

Isa 40:14
14 Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him,
and who taught him the right way?
Who was it that taught him knowledge
or showed him the path of understanding?
NIV

Jer 17:10
10 "I the LORD search the heart
and examine the mind,
to reward a man according to his conduct,
according to what his deeds deserve."
NIV

Isa 46:10
10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say: My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.
NIV

One final note: If God does not know all things, then how can you be sure that he will judge you righteously? He might have missed many things about your life. Or forgotten. What if you think you're a born again Christian but with God's finite, imperfect knowledge of you, he could have a very different opinion of you? Not a very trustworthy God in my book.

 

[Rufus]

Feel free to explain what you think thr difference between theism and deism is, if you know, and why I am a deist. I believ God is running the world tht way He wants to. He is sovereign, and is not required to run the world as calvinists insist He should. Who are you, O man, to contradict God?

So you say he's is "sovereign" and is not required to run the world that way I think, as a Calvinist? Then educate me and inform me how
you require your sovereign ruler of the world to run the place. How do you KNOW God is running the world the way he wants to? Did he tell you this personally? Is your god immanent in this world or a mere spectator in it?

 

[PaulThomson]

Do you understand the difference between theism and deism? If so, are you a deist, then? And if so, who is running this world? Anyone?

Feel free to explain what you think thr difference between theism and deism is, if you know, and why I am a deist. I believ God is running the world tht way He wants to. He is sovereign, and is not required to run the world as calvinists insist He should. Who are you, o man, to contradict God?

Then God cannot be omniscient. God is just like finite man: He learns, acquires, accumulates and stores knowledge? But thankfully, the bible says differently.

God's Book speaks of people like you:

Ps 50:21
21 These things you have done and I kept silent;
you thought I was altogether like you.
But I will rebuke you
and accuse you to your face.
NIV

Ps 44:20-21
20 If we had forgotten the name of our God
or spread out our hands to a foreign god,
21 would not God have discovered it,
since he knows the secrets of the heart?
NIV

Ps 90:8
8 You have set our iniquities before you,
our secret sins in the light of your presence.
NIV

Ps 139:1-6
For the director of music. Of David. A psalm.

1 O LORD, you have searched me
and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue
you know it completely, O LORD.

5 You hem me in — behind and before;
you have laid your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.

Ps 147:5
5 Great is our Lord and mighty in power;
his understanding has no limit.
NIV

Job 21:22
22 "Can anyone teach knowledge to God,
since he judges even the highest?
NIV

Job 37:16
16 Do you know how the clouds hang poised,
those wonders of him who is perfect in knowledge?
NIV

Prov 21:30
30 There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan
that can succeed against the LORD.
NIV

John 2:24-25
24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all men. 25 He did not need man's testimony about man, for he knew what was in a man.
NIV

1 John 3:20b
20 For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.
NIV

Isa 40:14
14 Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him,
and who taught him the right way?
Who was it that taught him knowledge
or showed him the path of understanding?
NIV

Jer 17:10
10 "I the LORD search the heart
and examine the mind,
to reward a man according to his conduct,
according to what his deeds deserve."
NIV

Isa 46:10
10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say: My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.
NIV

One final note: If God does not know all things, then how can you be sure that he will judge you righteously? He might have missed many things about your life. Or forgotten. What if you think you're a born again Christian but with God's finite, imperfect knowledge of you, he could have a very different opinion of you? Not a very trustworthy God in my book.

We disagree on our definitions of omniscient. We disagree on what is real and can be known because it is real. God does not know things that are not real.

 

[PaulThomson]

So you say he's is "sovereign" and is not required to run the world that way I think, as a Calvinist? Then educate me and inform me how
you require your sovereign ruler of the world to run the place. How do you KNOW God is running the world the way he wants to? Did he tell you this personally? Is your god immanent in this world or a mere spectator in it?

I don't require God to run the universe any particular way, He is God. I am not. I am in no position to demand God run the universe as I think He should.

 

[maxamir]

Thanks for the elaboration. I will take a look at your referenced posts. I'm admittedly no longer an adherent to any system of Theology, so it's always a prove your case with Scripture and let's discuss those Scriptures slowly and in detail hopefully only bringing in proof-texts later or minimally at first.

I saw your response on another thread to @maxamir who posted to me a graphic re: the Law of Christ and New Covenant Theology, which graphic and comments it looks like we both appreciated.

Above clever pun aside, as I briefly noted, I don't readily see Rom3:11 saying clearly that no unbeliever ever seeks God. I do see God at times in history looking at men and saying there are fools everywhere who are not seeking Him. And I remain having questions about the process men go through per Romans 1.

I did see a few posts re: Lydia. I may have chimed in on one.

Thanks again.

the sad truth is that there are many seek the benefits that God gives but none who seeks God Himself.

 

[PaulThomson]

People are not being punished in Hell for sins they have committed. They are separated from God because they don't want to live with God and with Jesus Christ as King.

 

[Rufus]

I don't require God to run the universe any particular way, He is God. I am not. I am in no position to demand God run the universe as I think He should.

Neither do I. But I do know from scripture that God is totally Sovereign and in control of this world -- down to the tiniest, seemingly mundane, insignificant details. Have you never read:

Matt 10:28-31
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. 30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows?
NIV

Or don't you know:

Phil 2:13
13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose?
NIV

Or have you never understood that God has numbered all our days in eternity?

Ps 139:16
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
NIV

God is a quite a busy camper -- very much involved with is creation.

Since the bible teaches God's omniscience and you cannot reconcile your inane, pitiful interpretation of Isaiah's announcement of Hezekiah's impending death and then God's "sudden change of mind", I will in a subsequent post explain what is going on in 2Kings 20 and support my explanation from scripture and from Natural Revelation (reality as we all know it).

 

[PaulThomson]

Neither do I. But I do know from scripture that God is totally Sovereign and in control of this world -- down to the tiniest, seemingly mundane, insignificant details. Have you never read:

Matt 10:28-31
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. 30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows?
NIV

Or don't you know:

Phil 2:13
13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose?
NIV

Or have you never understood that God has numbered all our days in eternity?

Ps 139:16
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
NIV

God is a quite a busy camper -- very much involved with is creation.

Since the bible teaches God's omniscience and you cannot reconcile your inane, pitiful interpretation of Isaiah's announcement of Hezekiah's impending death and then God's "sudden change of mind", I will in a subsequent post explain what is going on in 2Kings 20 and support my explanation from scripture and from Natural Revelation (reality as we all know it).

Knowing data about things is not the same as controlling those things.Helping Christians do His will by empowering those who believe Him for power, is not the same as exercising meticulous control of all details of reality.

 

[Cameron143]

Knowing data about things is not the same as controlling those things.Helping Christians do His will by empowering those who believe Him for power, is not the same as exercising meticulous control of all details of reality.

God can walk and chew gum at the same time. If I'm not mistaken, He can juggle on a unicycle also.

 

[Rufus]

Knowing data about things is not the same as controlling those things.Helping Christians do His will by empowering those who believe Him for power, is not the same as exercising meticulous control of all details of reality.

I guess you didn't understand the Matthew 10 passage I quoted. Not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from God's WILL. Or that God numbers all our days upon this earth and even the number of hairs on our head. God's decrees (in whatever form) far outnumber all the stars in the universe.

Evidently, you also have never read:

Job 23:13-16
13 "But He is unique and who can turn Him?
And what His soul desires, that He does.
14 "For He performs what is appointed for me,
And many such decrees are with Him.
15 "Therefore, I would be dismayed at His presence;
When I consider, I am terrified of Him.
16 "It is God who has made my heart faint,
And the Almighty who has dismayed me,
NASB

Sadly, you seem to have the same attitude towards God's sovereignty that the kings, princes and the peoples of the earth have (Ps 2:1-3).

 

[studier]

I think we have to understand Rom 3:11 in the larger context of scripture

Not ignoring you, just busy elsewhere. Will get back to this post ASAP. Also, I'm not receiving consistent notifications of posts on this thread, so it's not on my [old] radar.

 

[studier]

the sad truth is that there are many seek the benefits that God gives but none who seeks God Himself.

I pointed this out to a friend once who was revealing a bit of a mindset like this. I could hear the silent conviction after a big exhale until he came back and said something like, I guess I've been looking at this expecting my vig - thinking what's in it for me?

It's amazing the deep-rooted weeds He needs to pull from our souls.

 

[Rufus]

Did God Really Change His Mind About Hezekiah Because He Never Saw the King's Response Coming?​

I'm going to use the following passage as a springboard for my argument:

Isa 46:5-11
5 "To whom will you compare me or count me equal? To whom will you liken me that we may be compared? 6 Some pour out gold from their bags and weigh out silver on the scales; they hire a goldsmith to make it into a god, and they bow down and worship it. 7 They lift it to their shoulders and carry it;they set it up in its place, and there it stands.From that spot it cannot move.Though one cries out to it, it does not answer;it cannot save him from his troubles.

8 "Remember this, fix it in mind,take it to heart, you rebels. 9 Remember the former things, those of long ago;I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. 10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. 11 From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.
NIV

For me, this is one of the most mind-boggling, mind-blowing, awe-inspiring passages in all scripture. And a passage that brings great peace and comfort to my heart, as well -- to know at once that God is in complete control of his creation and he has the knowledge, wisdom, understanding and power to accomplish everything he desires -- to fulfill all his purposes. A book could be written on this passage alone! But this post will be limited to just specific features in the passage.

A. God's Omniscience

Verse 10 says that God makes the end known from the beginning. What is an "end", specifically? Well, an end is a goal. It's an accomplished purpose. It's an intent. And here's something else that an "end" is that many of us don't consider: It's an effect. And what is an "effect"? According to my Funk 'n' Wagnall, an effect is "something that inevitably follows an antecedent (as a cause or agent)." This is important to understand because of what follows in v. 11 that now talks about causes.

B. God is the Ultimate Cause of All Things

While God decrees (in one form or another) all things that come to past and is, therefore, the Eternal, Absolute Cause of all things, this does not mean that he's necessarily the Immediate Cause of all things. And this is precisely the thrust of the teaching in v.11. God can and does use man, beasts, angels (fallen or holy) or even natural causes to accomplish his ends. All such things are known as Secondary Causes. We can think of the pagan Persian king Cyrus whom God used mightily to set his people free from the Babylonian captivity. We can think of all the plagues God used against Egypt to see the ancient Hebrews free. Or what about how God used Satan against Job for a greater good? Or what about the whale that God used to transport Jonah to a place the prophet did not want to go? Or we can think of how God used Balaam's donkey to whip this false prophet into shape. Or what about Joseph's many trials which God ultimately used to benefit Jacob and his family? Or a secondary cause can be something as sublime as a moral/spiritual test such as what our first parents failed but Abraham passed. The list can go on and on.

So, with these facts behind us, why did God, through his prophet Isaiah, tell Hezekiah that he would not recover from his illness and that he should put his "house in order"? Did God Almighty not know the heart of the king, as Mr. Thompson boldly claims? I think not! I think what happened is that the king was "tested" by the Lord for the purpose of God eliciting the precise kind of response he received from him. And this conclusion fits the facts of the passage itself and Hezekiah's life per the following:

1. Hezekiah was a God-fearing king.
2. God immediately responded positively to Hezekiah's humble attitude and prayer.
3. God provided a healing remedy for his illness.
4. God added 15 years to the king's life.
5. God permitted the king to test Him!
6. And to heap more grace upon grace, God promised the king he would live out the rest of his days in Jerusalem in peace and escape the sword of the Assyrians.

This account with Hezekiah demonstrates the precious truths stated in Ps 37L28; 97:10, etc.

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
Knowing data about things is not the same as controlling those things.Helping Christians do His will by empowering those who believe Him for power, is not the same as exercising meticulous control of all details of reality.

I guess you didn't understand the Matthew 10 passage I quoted. Not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from God's WILL. Or that God numbers all our days upon this earth and even the number of hairs on our head. God's decrees (in whatever form) far outnumber all the stars in the universe.

Evidently, you also have never read:

Job 23:13-16
13 "But He is unique and who can turn Him?
And what His soul desires, that He does.
14 "For He performs what is appointed for me,
And many such decrees are with Him.
15 "Therefore, I would be dismayed at His presence;
When I consider, I am terrified of Him.
16 "It is God who has made my heart faint,
And the Almighty who has dismayed me,
NASB

Sadly, you seem to have the same attitude towards God's sovereignty that the kings, princes and the peoples of the earth have (Ps 2:1-3).

I think I have some understanding of Matthew 10. 29-31
29 "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them shall fall to the ground without your Father (aneu tou patris humOn) 30 Even the hairs on your head are all numbered. 31 You should not fear, then, for you are of more value than many sparrows.

To faithfully start to exegete a passage of scripture we should first not bring any presuppositions to the text, but simply read it for what it says on it's own. Once we have heard what it is saying, only then should we look to context (surrounding verses, then surrounding chapter/s, the book it is in, and its historical context) to see how these might nuance what the text actually says. We should not begin with presuppositions about God's nature or man's nature and overly these on the text from the start. So we should set aside presuppositions that God is omniscience and what is entailed in that, that God is omnipotent and what is entailed in that, that God is impassible and what is entailed in that, that God is immutable and what is entailed in that. Just look at what the text says.

So what does Matthew 10:29 say? It says that sparrows are considered by men to be of very little value, and can be bought for a half-penny each. It also says that no sparrow falls to the ground without your Father, i.e. every sparrow that falls to the ground, falls with your (pl.) Father. To fall to the ground means to die in mid-flight. What Matthew does not say is "no sparrow falls to the ground without your Father killing it". He does not say, " no sparrow falls to the ground without your Father wanting it to." He does not say, "no sparrow falls to the ground without your Father, decreeing it." He does not say, "no sparrow falls to the ground without your Father approving of it." What does "without your Father (aneu tou patris humOn) mean?

Aneu + something in the genitive case means without that thing. Thayer's Greek Lexicon (TGL) says, "with the genitive of person without one's will or intervention (often so in greek writings from Homer down. Compare chOris".
TGL says of chOris "1. separately, apart, John 20:7 ; 2. as a preposition with the genitive.

So, some translations insert "the will" before "of your Father". Some leave it as "of your Father". Some add "the knowledge" before "of your Father".
One's will (thelEma) is one's desire. When I see injustice happening, my will/desire is that it not happen and it might so aggravate my will/desire for its undoing, that I step into the situation and risk being imprisoned or killed by the unjust agency. Someone fearing for my safety might counsel me to be more stoic and impassive and to disengage my will from the situation, so that I am not motivated to take action. I could do that.

So what is Matthew saying here about God's reaction to a sparrow dying. The wider context is a discussion on fear of anything other than God. vv. 28-39 He is saying that the disciples should not fear opposition to them and their message. God is not ambivalent to their harm and death. God does not disengage His will/desires from the event his creatures go through. God even values sparrows and desires that the sparrow that falls had not died. Death is a result that God hates of the fall. God grieves at the death of a sparrow He values. We may be are harmed in some way, but if we are of more value than sparrows, we should expect God to value and care about us even more than He cares for the sparrows. The point Jesus is making is about the value of the sparrow compared to our value in God's sight. So, I would understand this statement of Jesus to mean that God is not impassive to the death of a sparrow. He is therefore not impassive allowing any human to die in His service. Better to die in God's service, because He values us and cares for us and can and will rescue us from death, than to fear and serve those who do not value us and who cannot deliver us from the death they lead us into.

Luke 12: 6 agrees with this perspective on Matthew.

Luke 12:6 "Are not five sparrows sold for two coins, yet not one of them is forgotten by God. ... So do not fear. You are of more value than many sparrows."

 

[PaulThomson]

Did God Really Change His Mind About Hezekiah Because He Never Saw the King's Response Coming?​

I'm going to use the following passage as a springboard for my argument:

Isa 46:5-11
5 "To whom will you compare me or count me equal? To whom will you liken me that we may be compared? 6 Some pour out gold from their bags and weigh out silver on the scales; they hire a goldsmith to make it into a god, and they bow down and worship it. 7 They lift it to their shoulders and carry it; they set it up in its place, and there it stands.From that spot it cannot move.Though one cries out to it, it does not answer;it cannot save him from his troubles.

8 "Remember this, fix it in mind, take it to heart, you rebels. 9 Remember the former things, those of long ago;I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. 10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. 11 From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.
NIV

For me, this is one of the most mind-boggling, mind-blowing, awe-inspiring passages in all scripture. And a passage that brings great peace and comfort to my heart, as well -- to know at once that God is in complete control of his creation and he has the knowledge, wisdom, understanding and power to accomplish everything he desires -- to fulfill all his purposes. A book could be written on this passage alone! But this post will be limited to just specific features in the passage.

A. God's Omniscience

Verse 10 says that God makes the end known from the beginning. What is an "end", specifically? Well, an end is a goal. It's an accomplished purpose. It's an intent. And here's something else that an "end" is that many of us don't consider: It's an effect. And what is an "effect"? According to my Funk 'n' Wagnall, an effect is "something that inevitably follows an antecedent (as a cause or agent)." This is important to understand because of what follows in v. 11 that now talks about causes.

B. God is the Ultimate Cause of All Things

While God decrees (in one form or another) all things that come to past and is, therefore, the Eternal, Absolute Cause of all things, this does not mean that he's necessarily the Immediate Cause of all things. And this is precisely the thrust of the teaching in v.11. God can and does use man, beasts, angels (fallen or holy) or even natural causes to accomplish his ends. All such things are known as Secondary Causes. We can think of the pagan Persian king Cyrus whom God used mightily to set his people free from the Babylonian captivity. We can think of all the plagues God used against Egypt to see the ancient Hebrews free. Or what about how God used Satan against Job for a greater good? Or what about the whale that God used to transport Jonah to a place the prophet did not want to go? Or we can think of how God used Balaam's donkey to whip this false prophet into shape. Or what about Joseph's many trials which God ultimately used to benefit Jacob and his family? Or a secondary cause can be something as sublime as a moral/spiritual test such as what our first parents failed but Abraham passed. The list can go on and on.

So, with these facts behind us, why did God, through his prophet Isaiah, tell Hezekiah that he would not recover from his illness and that he should put his "house in order"? Did God Almighty not know the heart of the king, as Mr. Thompson boldly claims? I think not! I think what happened is that the king was "tested" by the Lord for the purpose of God eliciting the precise kind of response he received from him. And this conclusion fits the facts of the passage itself and Hezekiah's life per the following:

1. Hezekiah was a God-fearing king.
2. God immediately responded positively to Hezekiah's humble attitude and prayer.
3. God provided a healing remedy for his illness.
4. God added 15 years to the king's life.
5. God permitted the king to test Him!
6. And to heap more grace upon grace, God promised the king he would live out the rest of his days in Jerusalem in peace and escape the sword of the Assyrians.

This account with Hezekiah demonstrates the precious truths stated in Ps 37L28; 97:10, etc.

You are shoe-horning of lot of unverified presupposition into the language used in scripture passages you cite, in order to explain why the scripture can't mean what they say because that would contradict others of your unverified presuppositions.

God had an end in mind before He began creation, to produce a family of children made in the image and after the likeness of the Son. ButAnd He will achieve that goal, but events between the establishing of the end and the consummation are not said to be decreed by God, and are open to options and variations.

10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.
God had an end goal to make man in his image and after His likeness to have dominion over fish, flying things, cattle, land, and every creeping thing. Man will inherit the earth and rule over it with Christ. God began the process toward that goal in creating Adam and Eve.
However, this does not mean that the events between the launx=ch of God's plan and His completion of it have to be all micromanaged and decreed by God. You have inserted that idea into the Bible. It is not there in black and white.

11 From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.
At this time in history God began a plan to allow conquerors to invade Israel to discipline them for their rebellion. He is undoubtedly able to bring it to completion if He so wills. But he is also able to change that plan and choose a different just end if He wills. This si what happened with Hezekiah. God began a plan to hand Hezekiah over to death, but he changed his plan because of Hezekiah's response to hearing that original plan. God is not like human Emperors of Babylon, who cannot chnge their own decrees. He is almighty God. he can change His decrees in mis stream, if he sees that change as desirable based on changing circumstances. Your presupposition of complete immutability and impassibility on God's part forces you to reject this option for God and limits His sovereign power.

 

[Rufus]

Isn't it your view that no one seeks after God. If so, it would not be true that God's purpose was that the nations should seek after God, because that would mean God's purpose was thwarted by men, and your systematic theology cannot allow God's purpose to be thwarted by men.

Personally, I think the alluded to text says "No one keeps on seeking after (present continuous tense) God." But you don't.

No, the text is speaking of God's Dispositional Will, not his Decretive Will.

And why do you continue to misrepresent my position as though I'm imposing some man-made systematic theology upon scripture? I have done no such thing ever in this thread! Scripture itself teaches that no plan or counsel or wisdom of man can succeed against God. That no one can thwart any of God's purposes or plans.

Job 42:2
2 "I know that Thou canst do ALL things,
And that NO purpose of Thine can be thwarted.
NAS

Wow! Looks like Job was a Calvinist! Or maybe Calvin was a Jobian.

And,

Prov 21:30
30 There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan
that can succeed against the LORD.
NIV

Wow! Solomon, too, was a Calvinist?

It is your interpretation of Act 17 that contradicts these two passages (and many others), not mine. You didn't read Jer 26 and 36 either, did you? If you did, it would help you to understand God's mind.

 

[studier]

nd the problem is even worse when we consider the opening text of Rom 3:11a which says, "There is no one [inherently] righteous, not even one". And this logically precedes the other two. Why? Because if there is no one righteous, then this explains why no one comes to the light in Jn 3:19-20. The unrighteous, evil men love the darkness (which would necessarily include themselves and evil itself, according to Eph 5:8; 2Tim 3:2-3) because their deeds are evil, then it follows logically that no one [can] understand(s) spiritual truth (Rom 1:21; 3:11b; Eph 4:18); ), therefore, what possibly could impel or motivate the unregenerate to seek after the Author of Life and The Light of the World (Rom 3:11c)? Even earlier in chapter 1 of Romans Paul teaches us that even though men can understand and know some things about God through Natural Revelation, the Natural Man ruled by the Flesh doesn't want to retain that knowledge and so he suppresses it. And then later in chapter 2, Paul moves to Intuitive Revelation (which I consider to be a separate category from the External World around us), and even when men's consciences accuse them when they sin due to the works of the law written upon their hearts, they still don't seek God. It takes something outside themselves to actually convict them of sin. And that "something" is the Holy Spirit (Jn 16:8-11).

The only way I see any unregenerate sinner actually seeking God is by God taking the initiative to effectually draw that person to Christ. Maybe one day I'll write an argument in the form of a biblically-supported syllogism to prove all this.

I'm going to start here rather than with Rom3:11, which I already said a few things about based upon its quoting Ps14 and/or Ps53. We may well progress back to this.

I'd like to go back to Rom1 before progressing and respond to a few things you said above.

• You use "Natural Revelation" and I've spoken of the same as "General Revelation". So we're both speaking together, I'll use NR as you are.
• I don't see Rom1:21 saying no one can understand spiritual truth.
  • It seems clear that Rom1 is telling us that men do know God - certain things about God - from the NR He has revealed.
  • God's existence is spiritual truth - spiritual reality - and He has made certain that all men know what NR tells us about Him.
    • As an aside, this is why I cut short discussions with atheists and agnostics. I believe it's clear that they know certain things about God and have decided to reject Him. This seems to be clear from this part of Rom1.
    • And this is part of the issue re: Rom1 as I'm understanding you:
      • I used the word "decided" and I think you disagree with this or might say that God did not make it clear to them (please correct me if I misunderstand you).
      • But I think Rom1 is saying precisely this; God did make His existence clear, to every man through NR:'
        • His existence - what may be known of God from NR - is clearly/plainly seen in/by/among them (depending how we interpret the preposition "en") - God made it clear to them Rom1:19
        • His invisibles (eternal power and divinity) are clearly understood Rom1:20
  • Through NR men have some level of clear understanding of God - spiritual truth.
  • Only some men reject this, which seems to be clear as Paul continues.
    • Should we say at this point that God elected some to reject Him and that they have no excuse for doing so?
• You mention the flesh not wanting to retain knowledge of God [gained via NR].
  • We could probably wring this out and find some agreement, but the Text just says they did not glorify Him as God nor were they thankful to Him Rom1:21
    • Again, is this because they were not elected by God to glorify Him or thank Him based upon NR that God gives all men?
  • Then the Text say they saw no value in having God in experiential knowledge Rom1:28
    • Again, is this because they were not elected by God to see any value in having God as an experiential part of their life?
• Now there also seems to be a progressive degeneration going on here that began with their not glorifying God as God and not being thankful to Him.
  • It seems some do glorify Him and thank Him based upon NR.
    • Why should we insert election back into this and say men have no innate abilities or capacities given to them by God to respond to His NR?
    • One of my concerns about certain views of election is that some verses end up being used globally and being inserted where they don't belong. Whether they are being used out of immediate context or out of the context of the entire counsel of God is a matter of potentially many levels of interpretation.

Re: Rom2 or 3 or anything beyond Rom1, I hope you'd agree that just as correct interpretation can be used for a basis for continuing context, so can incorrect interpretation become the basis for additional incorrect interpretation.

Again, in and out a bit and other things to ay attention to, so I may come and go here. I will try to watch for your responses. I may also have to take some time and ponder what you say.

 

[Rufus]

You are shoe-horning of lot of unverified presupposition into the language used in scripture passages you cite, in order to explain why the scripture can't mean what they say because that would contradict others of your unverified presuppositions.

God had an end in mind before He began creation, to produce a family of children made in the image and after the likeness of the Son. ButAnd He will achieve that goal, but events between the establishing of the end and the consummation are not said to be decreed by God, and are open to options and variations.

10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.
God had an end goal to make man in his image and after His likeness to have dominion over fish, flying things, cattle, land, and every creeping thing. Man will inherit the earth and rule over it with Christ. God began the process toward that goal in creating Adam and Eve.
However, this does not mean that the events between the launx=ch of God's plan and His completion of it have to be all micromanaged and decreed by God. You have inserted that idea into the Bible. It is not there in black and white.

11 From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.
At this time in history God began a plan to allow conquerors to invade Israel to discipline them for their rebellion. He is undoubtedly able to bring it to completion if He so wills. But he is also able to change that plan and choose a different just end if He wills. This si what happened with Hezekiah. God began a plan to hand Hezekiah over to death, but he changed his plan because of Hezekiah's response to hearing that original plan. God is not like human Emperors of Babylon, who cannot chnge their own decrees. He is almighty God. he can change His decrees in mis stream, if he sees that change as desirable based on changing circumstances. Your presupposition of complete immutability and impassibility on God's part forces you to reject this option for God and limits His sovereign power.

Yes, and the Almighty God who has in eternity decreed the end also decreed all the MEANS to achieve that END! We have numerous examples. Again, Joseph is perhaps the quintessential example in the OT, whereby Joseph revealed that while all that his brothers did him they meant for evil, God however meant it for good! And then we have the Cross of Christ with Christ himself is the supreme example in all the bible (Act 4:27-28).

So, what he have with Hezekiah are these decrees:

1. God decreed [the End] that He would deliver Jerusalem and the king from the Assyrians
2. God decreed that he would give the king a miraculous sign for his assurance
3. God decreed that he would add 15 years to Hezekiah's life.
4. God immediately upon hearing the king's petition decreed to him that He would heal him.
5. God decreed the king, upon hearing the news, would humble himself and weep bitterly
5. God decreed through the prophet, that the king would not survive his illness.
7.God decreed a serious illness would befall the king.

At first blush, this order of things might seem a little strange, but it is perfectly logical. Points 2 thru 7 are all subsevient to the End (#1) since they serve as means to accomplish the Primary End.

The End was actually the FIRST decree and all the others were means employed by God to achieve this END, starting with #7, this End being the deliverance of His holy city and this godly king. So, while all the means preceded the End in temporal reality, nonetheless in God's mind (eternal, unseen, invisible reality) all the means served his number 1 purpose -- a purpose that existed in his mind prior to the means. Paradoxical? Absolutely! With respect to this profound paradox, I will appeal to Natural Revelation in a subsequent post to prove this premise.

Your argument fails on three fatal flaws. Your argument rests on the premise that God changed his mind after discovering how Hezekiah responded to prophet's bad news. This premise clearly implies that God's change of mind (his will) was contingent on the king's prayer and tearful response. Yet, the very passage itself contradicts this inference!

2 Kings 20:-6
6 I will add fifteen years to your life. And I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria. I will defend this city for my sake and for the sake of my servant David.'"
NIV

Your presuppositions has so blinded you that you have missed entirely what this passage above is saying! Since God did not act for the sake of Hezekiah per se, then God's "change of mind" (so called) could not have been contingent on the king's response to the bad news. God "changed his mind" for the sake of his Holy City (City of David) that he was determined to defend FIRST for His own sake (read Glory) and secondly for the sake of King David (read Davidic Covenant)! Hezekiah, therefore, was but one of the "cogs in the wheel" -- he was a means to God's stated end (goal) stated in v.6. It was never God's plan to deliver the City apart from its king. God determined that the City would live in peace for the next 15 years along with its godly king. This narrative serves as a great practical example of the doctrine of God's Sovereignty that Paul taught to the Ephesisans:

Eph 1:11-12
11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.
NIV

God's will is never contingent on the will of any of his creatures. NEVER!

And lastly, God greatly covets his own Glory, for there is no one greater than He. Ultimately, he does all things for his own glory which he will never give to another.

Isa 48:9-11
9 For my own name's sake I delay my wrath;
for the sake of my praise I hold it back from you,
so as not to cut you off.
10 See, I have refined you, though not as silver;
I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this.
How can I let myself be defamed?
I will not yield my glory to another.
NIV

It's interesting that "testing" is mentioned in this passage because this is exactly what happened with Hezekiah and his personal "furnance of affliction", i.e. his serious illness. And who was ultimately glorified by the king's affliction by which he was tested?

Finally, if you're right about God not knowing Hezekiah's response beforehand, then I suppose God didn't know what Abraham's response would be to his command to offer up Issac either? And this, too, accounted for why God "changed his mind" just before Abraham plunged his knife into his son's heart?

Personally, I could never take any comfort in such a god, or find any assurance in such a god, or find such a god to be trustworthy.

 

[PaulThomson]

Of course, you won't do it! You painted yourself in a corner again with your foolish, outlandish claim that God has been drawing men to him since Day One of Creation. Well, then, answer me this question Einstein: If God has been drawing men to him for all these centuries, then how come the entire world isn't saved? After all, Jesus did say in John 6 that all that the Father gives him WILL come to him. Not Perhaps. Not Maybe. Not Possibly. BUT WILL come!

Maybe you need to ask yourself this tough question about God's design: Why hasn't it happened after all these millennia!? It's not a question of "if it doesn't happen"! The irrefutable fact is: It has never happened! You're so stuck on your Humanism and Naturalism that you have blinded yourself to biblical history. How many people were saved in the Garden after the Fall? Then how many people were saved in the Antediluvian Period of history? Then after after the Tower of Babel how many people became worshipers of YHWH?
If so many people were seeking after God in the Postdiluvian era, how come God used Israel to drive out seven wicked, pagan nations from the land He had promised to Abraham? And I could go on and on with these kinds of questions. Your god who "designed" that men would save themselves by seeking him is a miserable, wretched, unmitigated Failure! His grand plan flopped big time! Quite a stark contrast between your god and the God Jesus talks about in John 6!

I most definitely will stick with Jesus' version of God!

What dpoes the word "come" mean? you seem to think "come" means "believe in". "Come" and "believe in" are different,. They look different. They sound different. They're spelt different. They have different meanings.

 

[PaulThomson]

No, the text is speaking of God's Dispositional Will, not his Decretive Will.

And why do you continue to misrepresent my position as though I'm imposing some man-made systematic theology upon scripture? I have done no such thing ever in this thread! Scripture itself teaches that no plan or counsel or wisdom of man can succeed against God. That no one can thwart any of God's purposes or plans.

Job 42:2
2 "I know that Thou canst do ALL things,
And that NO purpose of Thine can be thwarted.
NAS

Wow! Looks like Job was a Calvinist! Or maybe Calvin was a Jobian.

Dispositional will and Decretive will are not biblical terms. they are terms calvinists invented to plug holes an their system and explain why the bible dies not mean what it says. Your use of these terms is a glaring example of what you are denying doing. Gaslights anyone?

No one can thwart God's purpose. But God can change His purpose according to how people respond to his purpose. you are denying God's sovereignty, when you, a mere creature, forbid Him to change His planned ends to different ends. God says in scripture that He does that, but you contradict Him. Who are you, O man, to contradict God?