Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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PaulThomson

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Magenta said:
Do you think man has an excuse then, even though Scripture attests otherwise?
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The man who judges another, and does the same things, has no excuse for those transgressions.
Romans 2:3 KJV — And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

The man who denies God's deity and power is without excuse.
Romans 1:20 KJV — For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Men do not need excuses for the good they do.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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studier said:
Apart from knowing and understanding what to do?

God requires man to believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ.

Does God require man to believe apart from understanding?

Can man with totally corrupt faculties understand who Jesus Christ is and believe what he understands?
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I never said man had totally corrupt faculties. I said all man's faculties have been corrupted. What you stated was your bias on what I said. If we are going to have an honest discussion, it would be better to simply accept what I post. I realize what others have shared on this subject, and that some believe that man has been entirely corrupted. That is not my position.
The problem with fallen man isn't that he can't understand the Bible and the gospel and what is required of him. He knows this through creation and conscience. The problem is that knowing these things, he doesn't glorify God nor is thankful towards Him...Romans 1. So, the question is why?
Perhaps you know the answer to this. Do you?
 
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PaulThomson

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Cameron143 said:
Can a man escape a traffic violation because he is ignorant of the law?
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Yes. A man who does not know the road rules or how to drive, who's feet are tied to the floor pedals and whose hands are tied to the steering wheel, and who's limb movements are exhaustively determined by another, who breaks the traffic laws can escape traffic violation because he is ignorant of the law.
 
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PaulThomson

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Cameron143 said:
I never said man had totally corrupt faculties. I said all man's faculties have been corrupted.
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Why can a man whose faculties are all partially corrupted not do some measure of good and understand some measure of information sometimes?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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PaulThomson said:
Yes. A man who does not know the road rules or how to drive, who's feet are tied to the floor pedals and whose hands are tied to the steering wheel, and who's limb movements are exhaustively determined by another, who breaks the traffic laws can escape traffic violation because he is ignorant of the law.
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He wouldn't escape due to ignorance in your example, but because he was coerced. Ignorance of the law doesn't remove culpability.
 
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PaulThomson

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Cameron143 said:
The problem with fallen man isn't that he can't understand the Bible and the gospel and what is required of him. He knows this through creation and conscience. The problem is that knowing these things, he doesn't glorify God nor is thankful towards Him...Romans 1. So, the question is why?
Perhaps you know the answer to this. Do you
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Normal distribution curves. Some do and some don't. The fact that some don't, does not imply that those who do must have been physically, mentally or spiritually enhanced. Some do glorify God and are thankful.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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PaulThomson said:
Normal distribution curves. Some do and some don't. The fact that some don't, does not imply that those who do must have been physically, mentally or spiritually enhanced. Some do glorify God and are thankful.
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No, none of themselves do. Ask yourself what it means to glorify God.
Also, Jesus said none is good but God. Why?
 
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PaulThomson

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Cameron143 said:
He wouldn't escape due to ignorance in your example, but because he was coerced. Ignorance of the law doesn't remove culpability.
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Which is the same as the calvinist case for God charging exhaustively determined humans for transgressing laws they are ignorant of. Yhe driver was not being coerced. He was unconscious.
 
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PaulThomson

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Cameron143 said:
No, none of themselves do. Ask yourself what it means to glorify God.
Also, Jesus said none is good but God. Why?
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Enoch did. Noah did. Samuel did.

If only parts of us are good, taken as a whole, we are not good. If all parts of God are good, taken as a whole, He is good.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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PaulThomson said:
Which is the same as the calvinist case for God charging exhaustively determined humans for transgressing laws they are ignorant of. Yhe driver was not being coerced. He was unconscious.
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I never said any of that. I said your example didn't fit reality and explained why.
 
Magenta

Magenta

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PaulThomson said:
The man who judges another, and does the same things, has no excuse for those transgressions.
Romans 2:3 KJV — And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

The man who denies God's deity and power is without excuse.
Romans 1:20 KJV — For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Men do not need excuses for the good they do.
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So men are without excuse. Thanks.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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PaulThomson said:
Enoch did. Noah did. Samuel did.

If only parts of us are good, taken as a whole, we are not good. If all parts of God are good, taken as a whole, He is good.
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None of them did. All of them found grace in the sight of the Lord. And all were saved by grace through faith.
Simply because God has discovered to man truth gradually over time doesn't mean that the truth didn't always exist.
The NT reveals what was concealed in the OT. In the days of Enoch men began to call upon the name of the Lord. Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord. Abraham believed God. That's faith. Even with Samuel, God came to him at night. And God kept coming.
 
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studier

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Cameron143 said:
What you stated was your bias on what I said
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Maybe it was just my misunderstanding from not paying close enough attention. My apology and I stand corrected if I have misquoted you.

Cameron143 said:
The problem with fallen man isn't that he can't understand the Bible and the gospel and what is required of him. He knows this through creation and conscience. The problem is that knowing these things, he doesn't glorify God nor is thankful towards Him...Romans 1. So, the question is why?
Perhaps you know the answer to this. Do you?
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I think you're mixing 2 different pieces of spiritual information. Romans 1 speaks of God's existence, His eternal power, His divinity. and His judgment known through Creation and conscience.

The Good News of His Son is not the same thing identified in mid to end of Romans 1 and shortly beyond.

But what I understand you to be saying is that fallen man can understand what is required of him, including the Gospel, correct?

As to your questions, re: Rom1 I think it's pretty clear that those who reject God see no value in having Him in their knowledge and this knowledge is a word that essentially means their practical - experiential - knowledge. IOW they see no value having any knowledge of God in their day-to-day life experience Rom1:28.

The interesting things to me about this in the context of all this discussion we've been having on this thread is it seems to clearly leave this choice to have God in their knowledge up to the will and desires and evaluation of men. And the reason they have no excuse for rejecting God is because God has made certain they know of His existence and of certain things about Him.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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studier said:
Who in this discussion do you think is unaware of this verse?

cc: @Magenta
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Paul was a lawyer a building a case, a verse removed from its surrounding context is not how one understands the main thesis of the text.
 
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