Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Fixed.

1 Timothy 6:3-5 NLT - "Some people may contradict our teaching, but these are the wholesome teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. These teachings promote a godly life. Anyone who teaches something different is arrogant and lacks understanding. Such a person has an unhealthy desire to quibble over the meaning of words. This stirs up arguments ending in jealousy, division, slander, and evil suspicions. These people always cause trouble. Their minds are corrupt, and they have turned their backs on the truth. To them, a show of godliness is just a way to become wealthy."

You have been placed on "Ignore," not that you care at all.

 

[PaulThomson]

I still don't get it. If a person can't choose to go on their own, how could they possess free will?

What do you think this means -

Mem said:
I mean that I can't choose to go on my own and find life, even if I think my plan would work.

In what way is that different in meaning from -

Mem said:
I mean that I can't choose to go on my own, even if I think my plan would work.

 

[HeIsHere]

A new heart is regeneration. A new heart has a different nature.

@Cameron143
Acts 2:37...when they heard this...He gives spiritual hearing or understanding, they were pricked in their hearts...He circumcises the heart, removing the heart of stone and gives a heart of flesh, and this affects the will...what shall we do?

@Cameron143
I never said that fallen man cannot respond to God, the Gospel, his surroundings, or any other stimuli. But he can only respond according to his nature.

Yes I see it now, you never said cannot respond but can only respond one way.
God still leaves people in their sin in your framework, tells them to believe when in fact they cannot because they cannot even hear unless God gives spiritual hearing.

There is no doubt that if God grants spiritual hearing to some and not others then @cv5 is correct.

-God's offer of repentance is fraudulent

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I beg your pardon, then. Then you're not a free willer in the autonomous sense?

For your info, I am and I'm not! I maintain that God's image-bearers have the same moral capacity that our Image Maker does! That is to say, God cannot sin and Man cannot not sin precisely for the same reason: Their Essence or Nature. Their wills are controlled by their nature. God is free to do all that is in accordance with his nature; and so is man. But neither the Law of Identity or Scripture gives either God or Man the power to transcend or circumvent their essence. Therefore, in the cases of God and Man, both have wills that are free from external force. But those wills are not free internally, i.e. in the autonomous sense.

Thanks, but I have no idea of what you're talking about.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

What point is there to the "slave of sin" analogy, and the claim that a slave of sin cannot escape from master sin on their own, if it has no bearing in the slave of Philemon reality, and on the reality of many slaves and POWs who have been able to escaped their masters on their own.

It seems disingenuous to bolster one's theological claims using analogies that one has every intention of disclaiming, if someone notices the reality behind the analogies actually contradicts his claims.

I haven't a clue as to what you're going on about. You are bent on arguing and I have no interest in that.

 

[Cameron143]

Do you agree with his assessment of what I believe?
It's interesting. You have no problem with someone lying, but someone praying for a liar is wrong? And didn't you tell me just the other day you were going to pray for me?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

What do you think this means -

Mem said:
I mean that I can't choose to go on my own and find life, even if I think my plan would work.

In what way is that different in meaning from -

Mem said:
I mean that I can't choose to go on my own, even if I think my plan would work.

Boring.

 

[Cameron143]

This seems a little different that what you have stated in the past, seems to me you had stated the new heart had to precede regeneration?

You chose to hear what you wanted to hear. My position hasn't changed.

 

[PaulThomson]

You read what he wrote. It does not reflect what I believe. He knows it isn't what I believe, and yet he has no problem saying it is what I believe. That is simply bearing false witness.
If you want to have an honest discussion, I'll answer your questions. But don't bias the questions by using Calvinist terminology. You say you don't believe in Calvinism or TULIP. Fair enough. I'm sure you believe you came to your beliefs by an individual assessment of the Bible. I have done the same. So rather than frame doctrine in terms that the Bible doesn't employ and you don't acknowledge as true, ask questions using biblical terms that you acknowledge as biblical and true.

Do you agree with the following? If not, what would you change to make it say what you believe?

1. Due to sin all of mankind is completely sinful, or depraved. Every part of fallen man is corrupted by sin. He is a creature that is incapable of obeying the law of God.

2. We cannot thwart the will of God to save us. All who are called by God to believe in Jesus will be saved.

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
What do you think this means -

Mem said:
I mean that I can't choose to go on my own and find life, even if I think my plan would work.

In what way is that different in meaning from -

Mem said:
I mean that I can't choose to go on my own, even if I think my plan would work.

Boring.

It's OK to say., I don't know. I have no interest in understanding what sentences mean."

 

[Magenta]

I also cannot understand how those who follow this system cannot see this!

How does one feel okay making Jesus a liar. "Believe" but you can't believe.....oops!!

Not sure how you missed it... with man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible. Those are the words of Jesus.

 

[Magenta]

Amazing, so the fallen man is given a new heart, but he still is a fallen man, so now in this fallen state with a new heart he can respond to the Gospel and since he responds he is regenerated.

So the fallen man with a new heart is still a fallen man until he is regenerated, correct?

That works well because then you can make the above statement.

What part of being made alive when you were dead do you not understand? Seems you reject it in whole.

 

[HeIsHere]

Do you agree with his assessment of what I believe?
It's interesting. You have no problem with someone lying, but someone praying for a liar is wrong? And didn't you tell me just the other day you were going to pray for me?

I try to stay away from calling people liars, it is dumb on a discussion board.

I do see how there can be a correlation between kidnapping and irresistible grace, since a person is kidnapped against their will and irresistible grace does mean God acts unilaterally upon a person and the person cannot refuse, kidnap just makes for less words but yes pejorative.

....but my main concern is making God's offer of salvation to all being fraudulent.

Yes because of what you believe about crime and punishment not because I assumed you were having emotional issues that seems somewhat patronizing to me.

 

[PaulThomson]

I haven't a clue as to what you're going on about. You are bent on arguing and I have no interest in that.

This is a discussion board, not a preaching board. You can blog to do that,

In a discussion board, people are going to either agree or disagree or not understand, On a discussion board, you don't get to filter responses to your posts to restrict them to only those that agree with you. You need to learn to presesnt a cogent response to counter-arguments. Playing the victim and rage-quitting are not mature responses to having your opinions challenged,

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Playing the victim and rage-quitting are not mature responses to having your opinions challenged,

Thank you so much for this final piece of insanity. You too, have been placed on ignore. Thank God the Moderators provide and encourage us to use this upon people such as yourself. Ulf . . . what a nightmare!

 

[Cameron143]

@Cameron143
Acts 2:37...when they heard this...He gives spiritual hearing or understanding, they were pricked in their hearts...He circumcises the heart, removing the heart of stone and gives a heart of flesh, and this affects the will...what shall we do?

@Cameron143
I never said that fallen man cannot respond to God, the Gospel, his surroundings, or any other stimuli. But he can only respond according to his nature.

Yes I see it now, you never said cannot respond but can only respond one way.
God still leaves people in their sin in your framework, tells them to believe when in fact they cannot because they cannot even hear unless God gives spiritual hearing.

There is no doubt that if God grants spiritual hearing to some and not others then @cv5 is correct.

He's not. Jesus said it is given unto you and it is not given to others. Not me. God alone can circumcise a heart.
There i
s not one person who seeks after God with all their heart that God turns away. There is not one person who calls upon the name of the Lord who is not saved.
But I do have a question for you. Throughout the history of mankind, the majority of people have been born, lived, and died without a written or spoken word from God, never heard the name of Jesus, or had a messenger sent by God to share the gospel. What happened to these people when they died? And if God loved every one of them, and Jesus died for their sins, why didn't God send someone to them?

 

[HeIsHere]

You chose to hear what you wanted to hear. My position hasn't changed.

You are correct I checked it out, you believe God gives spiritual hearing first and I still disagree, the natural man is not born deprived or morally incapable of responding to the message of the Gospel, in fact that is the condition God gives.

…28Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” 29 Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.” 30So they asked Him, “What sign then will You perform, so that we may see it and believe You? What will You do?…
John 6:29

He does not state that God may give you the ability to believe.

 

[HeIsHere]

He's not. Jesus said it is given unto you and it is not given to others. Not me. God alone can circumcise a heart.
There i
s not one person who seeks after God with all their heart that God turns away. There is not one person who calls upon the name of the Lord who is not saved.
But I do have a question for you. Throughout the history of mankind, the majority of people have been born, lived, and died without a written or spoken word from God, never heard the name of Jesus, or had a messenger sent by God to share the gospel. What happened to these people when they died? And if God loved every one of them, and Jesus died for their sins, why didn't God send someone to them?

I have my own views on this. I trust God and I do not need to follow the Synod of Dort to deal with this moral dilemma which just creates more moral dilemmas!!!

 

[PaulThomson]

2ndTimothyGroup said:
I haven't a clue as to what you're going on about. You are bent on arguing and I have no interest in that.

PaulThomson said:
This is a discussion board, not a preaching board. You can blog to do that,

In a discussion board, people are going to either agree or disagree or not understand, On a discussion board, you don't get to filter responses to your posts to restrict them to only those that agree with you. You need to learn to presesnt a cogent response to counter-arguments. Playing the victim and rage-quitting are not mature responses to having your opinions challenged,

REPLY

Thank you so much for this final piece of insanity. You too, have been placed on ignore. Thank God the Moderators provide and encourage us to use this upon people such as yourself. Ulf . . . what a nightmare!

I understand.

 

[HeIsHere]

He's not. Jesus said it is given unto you and it is not given to others. Not me. God alone can circumcise a heart.
There i
s not one person who seeks after God with all their heart that God turns away. There is not one person who calls upon the name of the Lord who is not saved.
But I do have a question for you. Throughout the history of mankind, the majority of people have been born, lived, and died without a written or spoken word from God, never heard the name of Jesus, or had a messenger sent by God to share the gospel. What happened to these people when they died? And if God loved every one of them, and Jesus died for their sins, why didn't God send someone to them?

My concern is God bequeathing spiritual hearing. I cannot accept this because of the moral problems it creates and it is not in scripture obviously.

Believe as you will, the God of the Bible does not make false promises, I agree with @cv5 on this.