Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Rufus]

[QUOTE="FollowerofShiloh, post: 5323887, member: 328825"]Paul refused to Baptize people himself over it might become a doctrine. Proof how evil doctrine can be.[/QUOTE]

Chapter and verse, please. And since you're so anti-doctrine, then you are like a train that is running on no tracks.

Also, it is written:

Titus 1:8-9; 2:1
9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it....2:1 You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.
NIV

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Au contraire! Joshua led the second generation of Hebrews in the Land! And the ones who didn't enter were never believers in the first place. Get up to speed on Hebrews 3 someday. God never promised Moses that each and every person he led out of Egypt would actually enter the land.

Ex 3:8
8 So I have come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land into a good and spacious land, a land flowing with milk and honey — the home of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites.
NIV

But as far as you're concerned God failed!? Also notice in above passage Who WOULD bring the Israelites into the Land! Do you see Moses' name in this passage?

You were talking about Moses and now jump to Joshua. Always moving the goalpost.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

[QUOTE="FollowerofShiloh, post: 5323887, member: 328825"]
Chapter and verse, please. And since you're so anti-doctrine, then you are like a train that is running on no tracks.

Also, it is written:

Titus 1:8-9; 2:1
9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it....2:1 You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.
NIV

14 I thank God that I immersed none of you, except Crispus and Gaius,
15 so that no one should say that I had immersed you into my own name.

He's talking about people always making things into a Doctrine like YOU!

 

[Rufus]

You will never find a true discussion about the Bible until you remove the idealisms people have from being taught.
When I post I never use a doctrine. I say I can see truths from all Biblical doctrine views while also seeing where they are dangerous.

Take for example 2 guys having some wings and watching football. There's discussion about the game, other players, trades around the league, but both guys have open views.

Now, if those 2 guys had a doctrine. It would become a discussion about differences. Doctrine minded people are trapped. You already disagree with the Reformed position and just look at how they are. The entire discussion is focused on that doctrine. So you will never get their own truth just the truth they have been persuaded to become.

I was persuaded by the bible before I even knew who Calvin was. Also, your analogy is comparing a game discussion with Absolute Spiritual Truth. God's precious truth is on the same level as a some sports game? Really?

 

[Rufus]

You were talking about Moses and now jump to Joshua. Always moving the goalpost.

You brought Moses into the land discussion. But God didn't! Did you even read Ex 3:8? And what difference does it make how God brought the people into the Land? If he had used Humpty Dumpty, he would have still kept his promise!

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I was persuaded by the bible before I even knew who Calvin was. Also, your analogy is comparing a game discussion with Absolute Spiritual Truth. God's precious truth is on the same level as a some sports game? Really?

Look at you on this thread battling anything you oppose. Most of the time you are wrong but you keep battling. It is a game in that sense of it.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You brought Moses into the land discussion. But God didn't! Did you even read Ex 3:8? And what difference does it make how God brought the people into the Land? If he had used Humpty Dumpty, he would have still kept his promise!

No, you brought Moses into it, here's your post :
Two questions: First, what was the Promise to Abraham re the Land? And secondly, what did God tell Moses about the Land when He called his servant to confront Pharaoh?

 

[Rufus]

In terms of salvation, I believe that everyone stands alone before God, with whether they were elected/saved or not being
the only factor of true importance. I would say that I agree with Rufus (above), as long as by baptism, he meant
spiritual, and not water. But based upon prior discussions of his that I've very briefly read, I think that he might mean spiritual baptism,
but I could be wrong.

I do believe, though, that Water Baptism, is a biblically-sanctioned sacrament, along with Communion (Lord's Supper). Sorry if I misled you. I just don't believe in the carryover of the circumcision principle whereby children are baptized. I see Baptism as being for believers, just like the Lord's Supper is only for believers -- a "family meal".

 

[BillyBob]

I've told my children that I believe they are children of promise. I further told them that I expect God will at some point in their lives draw near to them and save them.
You can take comfort in a couple of things:
1. God has already favored them by giving them Christian parents, and
2. It makes sense for God to put children He will save with those who will train them up in the faith.
Hope this encourages you.

I am not asking for myself!
Just wondering what others think. I think I understand about God's elect. However, if an infant dies before actually coming to faith, would they be without hope? I would hope not, but that is in God's hands. Therefore, if this were the case:

• Would they be lost?
• Do you think that being a covenant child, as opposed to the child of an un-believer, would make any difference?
• Does it simply depend on them being chosen from eternity?

 

[Rufus]

Look at you on this thread battling anything you oppose. Most of the time you are wrong but you keep battling. It is a game in that sense of it.

And you and others haven't? I see the Five Doctrines of Grace as being the heart of the Gospel. And I define Gospel in the broad sense of meaning all the truth and grace that came by Christ and that is fully revealed in the NT.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

You will never find a true discussion about the Bible until you remove the idealisms people have from being taught.
When I post I never use a doctrine. I say I can see truths from all Biblical doctrine views while also seeing where they are dangerous.

Take for example 2 guys having some wings and watching football. There's discussion about the game, other players, trades around the league, but both guys have open views.

Now, if those 2 guys had a doctrine. It would become a discussion about differences. Doctrine minded people are trapped. You already disagree with the Reformed position and just look at how they are. The entire discussion is focused on that doctrine. So you will never get their own truth just the truth they have been persuaded to become.

No doubt, you speak in intellectual ways that seem to escape me. And that's not a bad thing (to me), for your level of intellect grants me the opportunity to learn and grow . . . EVEN if I disagree.

That said, let me apologize for not making myself clear. I am not one to allow doctrine to dissuade me. Doctrines don't bother me; people who hold other doctrines is not a problem for me. After all, how fun would it be to discuss the Bible with someone who saw it exactly as me? That's not fun at all. I am EAGER to speak with all people who hold different views than myself, and this includes satanists. I would LOVE to speak with such people! As long as I can have pleasant exchanges, I don't care what the belief is . . . at . . . all.

My good friend believes that the New Testament writings were written 400 years after Jesus rose from the grave. He believes in all that metaphysical "we are nothing but light, hence, we are holograms within millions of multiverses" crap . . . yadda yadda. We don't fight about it. We've never had an argument. The man refuses to go to church. He wants nothing to do with that "thing," but we are friends! We listen to each other. We have never put each other down; there is NO criticism! In fact, I bring him food, for he only has but a few dollars per month to live on after all expenses are paid, including the purchase of his food supply. Though this man is not a Christian, I hope to gain his trust by showing him that I care about him. He doesn't understand that I am winning him over with my kind and gentle character, and perhaps I am not. But that is ok.

This what I am after. I am hungry for kind and gentle conversations that revolve around our differences.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

And you and others haven't? I see the Five Doctrines of Grace as being the heart of the Gospel. And I define Gospel in the broad sense of meaning all the truth and grace that came by Christ and that is fully revealed in the NT.

Grace is Grace.
Mercy is Mercy.
God did not turn into several doctrines of Grace.
So, why do you?

 

[selahsays]

You're quite welcome. Another thing that is fascinating about Issac is that his miraculous birth foreshadowed the miraculous births of all NC born again believers who are not born of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God (Jn 1:13). And did Issac have anything to do with his own birth!? NO! God specifically elected him! Issac came into this world solely by God's will.
And so it is with all those whom God has elected in eternity to enter into a personal, loving, covenantal relationship with Him. Issac is a great picture of these truths!

Hello… Truly it was a miraculous intervention by God in Sarah and Abraham's lives to enable her to conceive and give birth to a child at her age. It was through Isaac's birth that the promised seed, Jesus Christ, would come.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

No doubt, you speak in intellectual ways that seem to escape me. And that's not a bad thing (to me), for your level of intellect grants me the opportunity to learn and grow . . . EVEN if I disagree.

That said, let me apologize for not making myself clear. I am not one to allow doctrine to dissuade me. Doctrines don't bother me; people who hold other doctrines is not a problem for me. After all, how fun would it be to discuss the Bible with someone who saw it exactly as me? That's not fun at all. I am EAGER to speak with all people who hold different views than myself, and this includes satanists. I would LOVE to speak with such people! As long as I can have pleasant exchanges, I don't care what the belief is . . . at . . . all.

My good friend believes that the New Testament writings were written 400 years after Jesus rose from the grave. He believes in all that metaphysical "we are nothing but light, hence, we are holograms within millions of multiverses" crap . . . yadda yadda. We don't fight about it. We've never had an argument. The man refuses to go to church. He wants nothing to do with that "thing," but we are friends! We listen to each other. We have never put each other down; there is NO criticism! In fact, I bring him food, for he only has but a few dollars per month to live on after all expenses are paid, including the purchase of his food supply. Though this man is not a Christian, I hope to gain his trust by showing him that I care about him. He doesn't understand that I am winning him over with my kind and gentle character, and perhaps I am not. But that is ok.

This what I am after. I am hungry for kind and gentle conversations that revolve around our differences.

Amen!

What is on your heart, Brother?

What is weighing on you?

Let's see if I might have something to share that would both enlighten your burden and bring joy and peace to your reasoning.

 

[Cameron143]

I am not asking for myself!
Just wondering what others think. I think I understand about God's elect. However, if an infant dies before actually coming to faith, would they be without hope? I would hope not, but that is in God's hands. Therefore, if this were the case:

• Would they be lost?
• Do you think that being a covenant child, as opposed to the child of an un-believer, would make any difference?
• Does it simply depend on them being chosen from eternity?

All born since sin begin lost. I don't think it makes a difference for salvation whether one grows up in a "saved" household or not. But I always find reason for hope. God is good and gracious to all. And His mercy endures to all generations. Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? I think God can be trusted.

 

[BillyBob]

All born since sin begin lost. I don't think it makes a difference for salvation whether one grows up in a "saved" household or not. But I always find reason for hope. God is good and gracious to all. And His mercy endures to all generations. Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? I think God can be trusted.

Maybe this is a mystery we must leave with God! I say this because I have not seen the subject address by scripture, or I have overlooked it somehow!

 

[rogerg]

Does this in anyway apply to the offspring of believers today?
I know that this is not always the case – David's own children failed! So, to whom does this apply? Should believers of today take any comfort in the fact that their infants belong to Christ as well as themselves?
I know this is a tough question!

It is a tough question and one that is painful for me to address for many reasons - and I almost hate doing so - but nevertheless, my personal belief, BillyBob, and one that I cannot deny, is that the offspring in view are Abraham's spiritual offspring, not his physical offspring - those whom God chose from before the foundation of the world unto salvation. I do not believe that physical linage can alter that. Of course, physical offspring are saved on the same basis and for same reason as those who are not physical offspring. That is what makes salvation to be solely by God's grace - that we cannot become saved by anything we do, choose or are, but rather, that they are a result of salvation.

[Rom 9:6-8 KJV]
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[BillyBob]

It is a tough question and one that is painful for me to address for many reasons - and I almost hate doing so - but nevertheless, my personal belief, BillyBob, and one that I cannot deny, is that the offspring in view are Abraham's spiritual offspring, not his physical offspring - those whom God chose from before the foundation of the world unto salvation. I do not believe that physical linage can alter that. Of course, physical offspring are saved on the same basis and for same reason as those who are not physical offspring. That is what makes salvation to be solely by God's grace - that we cannot become saved by anything we do, choose or are, but rather, that they are a result of salvation.

[Rom 9:6-8 KJV]
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Thanks to everyone for their views. This is probably one of the things that we best leave in God's hands! However, I must admit it has often troubled me to think about it!

 

[rogerg]

I do believe, though, that Water Baptism, is a biblically-sanctioned sacrament, along with Communion (Lord's Supper). Sorry if I misled you. I just don't believe in the carryover of the circumcision principle whereby children are baptized. I see Baptism as being for believers, just like the Lord's Supper is only for believers -- a "family meal".

So, you believe Water Baptism a symbolic representation of what already occurred spiritually to those saved, or did I misunderstand?

 

[Cameron143]

Maybe this is a mystery we must leave with God! I say this because I have not seen the subject address by scripture, or I have overlooked it somehow!

It's a tough subject to broach with many because it's an emotional subject, as well, for many, does not conform to their image of God.
I would agree that God does not in scripture make it plain what the case may be.