Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[PaulThomson]

When Christ was Resurrected from the Grave, the Law of Moses had fulfilled its Purpose, which was to protect the Blessed Jews.

Rom. 4:15
King James Bible
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.


Romans 2:17-24

King James Version

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

2 Cor.3 :6-9
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

How did the law protect the Jews?

 

[TMS]

You could very well be right, for if the Canaanite woman was truly Canaanite according to her origins, then even the abominations, the offspring of the Devil, are also available to Messiah's Saving Plan.
Matthew 15:22 KJV - "And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil."

More than likely, this woman was a genuine Canaanite. (For me), the challenge is to understand why God would want the abominations from the Seven Nations to be completely wiped out, man, woman, child, and even the animals . . . but would then change His Plan (for them).

But . . . what do you think of the below passage set?
John 17:6-12 NKJV - "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 "Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 "For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me. 9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 "And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled."

In verse 10 above, the word "all" is used. But clearly, "all" does not include the entire world. Because of this, when the word "all" is used in other scenarios, I take it to mean that "all" whom the Father has chosen, "all" that belong to the Lord and not of the Devil.

I ask myself, "Ok, so not all believed in Jesus, such as the Apostle Paul (prior to Salvation being granted). If Jesus knew that He would eventually save Saul while on the Damascus Road, why would this prayer not include him, the Christian killer?"

So far, this is one of those questions where I am still unsure. Furthermore, it is a very important question to ask and do our best to understand.

Sometimes I only pray for a group of people, sometimes I only pray for one person, sometimes I pray for the people in my life that I can think of which is not all the world... but I desire that all the world is saved and hope all the world is saved.

I believe Jesus was devoting His attention and pray to a specific group at that time.
This does not mean that Jesus didn't die for the whole world.

He loved the whole world.

 

[Inquisitor]

I do believe God can save anyone, anywhere, anytime. And God can and has saved people other than through the ordinary means He has prescribed. But to imagine that He has done so for so many is a bit much for me.

God elects fewer and fewer folk these days.

There is a marked decline in nearly every church denomination across
my country, for the last fifty years. I would assume this holds true for all
western nations.

So why does God predestine to salvation so few people these days?

In another twenty years there may not be many churches in my city to
even attend, for a new convert.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Sometimes I only pray for a group of people, sometimes I only pray for one person, sometimes I pray for the people in my life that I can think of which is not all the world... but I desire that all the world is saved and hope all the world is saved.

I believe Jesus was devoting His attention and pray to a specific group at that time.
This does not mean that Jesus didn't die for the whole world.

He loved the whole world.

Okie Doke. I am of the position that the things said [by God] are purposeful and not haphazard.

 

[Inquisitor]

Rom. 4:15
King James Bible
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.


Romans 2:17-24

King James Version

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

2 Cor.3 :6-9
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

How did the law protect the Jews?

What was the primary purpose of the law?

 

[Cameron143]

God elects fewer and fewer folk these days.

There is a marked decline in nearly every church denomination across
my country, for the last fifty years. I would assume this holds true for all
western nations.

So why does God predestine to salvation so few people these days?

In another twenty years there may not be many churches in my city to
even attend, for a new convert.

I don't believe God is saving fewer people today. There may be fewer being saved where we are, but the kingdom of God is as the mustard seed. It starts small but grows to be the largest plant. The leaven begins in one part, but eventually spreads to the whole lump. The knowledge of the glory of the Lord will eventually cover the earth as the waters cover the seas. I believe this is done through the church.

 

[Rufus]

You know very well this is a doctrinal view and not what the Bible actually claims.

Everything you posted matches your doctrine and not the Bible. That should tell anyone everything they need to know.

We already know the Greek word being used means Cosmos [κόσμον], the whole Universe.

Okay...if you say so. In John 17 Jesus explicitly did not pray for each and every person in the universe, while at the same time he did pray for two specific groups of people in the universe. So, Einstein, reconcile the contradiction your understanding of the world presents: How could Jesus at once not pray for the entire universe in the distributive sense while simultaneous praying for many in the universe?

Also, it's not my doctrine. Jesus clearly stated there are two kinds of people in this world. His disciples are IN the world (Jn 17:11) but not OF the world (Jn 17:14, 16).

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I don't believe God is saving fewer people today. There may be fewer being saved where we are, but the kingdom of God is as the mustard seed. It starts small but grows to be the largest plant. The leaven begins in one part, but eventually spreads to the whole lump. The knowledge of the glory of the Lord will eventually cover the earth as the waters cover the seas. I believe this is done through the church.

Cameron, I am able to determine that you have put in many thousands of hours of study and perhaps the cataloging of Scripture. Is this true? What tools, or methods have you used and perhaps implemented to help you "see" ideas and principles in Scripture?

Ecclesiastes 12:9 NLT - "Keep this in mind: The Teacher was considered wise, and he taught the people everything he knew. He listened carefully to many proverbs, studying and classifying them."

 

[Rufus]

In the millennium, there will be an abundance of teaching. Above all, we have a just and all-powerful Father in heaven who is still seated on His throne. View attachment 265162 We can count on Him.

We are in the "millennium". Which, evidently, you don't believe either. Anyhow...you haven't provided any biblical proof that God is going to give adult brains to infants, babies, toddlers, etc. Or that he is going to heal all the emotionally and mentally ill, etc.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Jesus clearly stated there are two kinds of people in this world.

Absolutely. Those who have received Spiritual Circumcision and those who have not.

 

[Rufus]

Cameron, I am able to determine that you have put in many thousands of hours of study and perhaps the cataloging of Scripture. Is this true? What tools, or methods have you used and perhaps implemented to help you "see" ideas and principles in Scripture?

Ecclesiastes 12:9 NLT - "Keep this in mind: The Teacher was considered wise, and he taught the people everything he knew. He listened carefully to many proverbs, studying and classifying them."

Hah! Very interesting text. The NIV renders the above:

Eccl 12:9-10
9 Not only was the Teacher wise, but also he imparted knowledge to the people. He pondered and searched out and set in order many proverbs. 10 The Teacher searched to find just the right words, and what he wrote was upright and true.
NIV

This passage suggest at least two things: First, the "Teacher" seemed to have been quite to disposed to systematic study. He was likely methodical in procedure and planning. Secondly, along the same lines, he very likely divided the proverbs up according to topics. He might have actually written the first Topical Bible ever. And yet, we have several people on this thread who totally dismiss the value of such kinds of study! In fact, they, thinking themselves to be wise, mock and ridicule those of us who see value in the various disciplines of theology and in recognizing and being thankful for the good gifts that God has given to his Church, such as teachers!

Good catch on that passage! This is why I love the Wisdom Books so much!

 

[Rufus]

Sometimes I only pray for a group of people, sometimes I only pray for one person, sometimes I pray for the people in my life that I can think of which is not all the world... but I desire that all the world is saved and hope all the world is saved.

I believe Jesus was devoting His attention and pray to a specific group at that time.
This does not mean that Jesus didn't die for the whole world.

He loved the whole world.

So you see no incongruity with Jesus explicitly excluding billions of people in the world in his high priestly prayer in John 17 that he nonetheless died for? Or should we understand that the two elect groups that he did explicitly pray for, he didn't die for them?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Hah! Very interesting text. The NIV renders the above:

Eccl 12:9-10
9 Not only was the Teacher wise, but also he imparted knowledge to the people. He pondered and searched out and set in order many proverbs. 10 The Teacher searched to find just the right words, and what he wrote was upright and true.
NIV

This passage suggest at least two things: First, the "Teacher" seemed to have been quite to disposed to systematic study. He was likely methodical in procedure and planning. Secondly, along the same lines, he very likely divided the proverbs up according to topics. He might have actually written the first Topical Bible ever. And yet, we have several people on this thread who totally dismiss the value of such kinds of study! In fact, they, thinking themselves to be wise, mock and ridicule those of us who see value in the various disciplines of theology and in recognizing and being thankful for the good gifts that God has given to his Church, such as teachers!

Good catch on that passage! This is why I love the Wisdom Books so much!

Yep! I was recently mocked when someone accused me of following "systematic" studying. I have no idea what that is. All that I know is that I was desperate to understand my Spiritual experience, and that event launched me into the most unbelievable study I can imagine. One of which was to highlight one of my entire Bibles with different-colored highlighters. I highlighted per thought. I would offer that if others did the same thing, perhaps their ideas of the Bible might change. Because of my forms of study, it bothers me none when I am labeled and belittled from "christians," the least patient and kind people on the planet.

 

[Rufus]

I don't believe God is saving fewer people today. There may be fewer being saved where we are, but the kingdom of God is as the mustard seed. It starts small but grows to be the largest plant. The leaven begins in one part, but eventually spreads to the whole lump. The knowledge of the glory of the Lord will eventually cover the earth as the waters cover the seas. I believe this is done through the church.

At one time I was pretty much a die-hard Amillennialist. But there are many other scriptures that have given me pause. I now lean towards Postmillennialism. And you're right: The growth of the Kingdom is though Christ's Church. We are actually spiritually fulfilling the Creation Mandate in this NC age of the New Creation.

 

[Genez]

So you see no incongruity with Jesus explicitly excluding billions of people in the world in his high priestly prayer in John 17 that he nonetheless died for? Or should we understand that the two elect groups that he did explicitly pray for, he didn't die for them?

God knowing in his omniscience that many would not believe, is not to be construed to mean he caused them not to believe.

In John 17, Jesus was specifically praying for his disciples given him....

Excluding others in prayer does not mean he did not die for the sins of the whole world.

It confounds some as to why Jesus died for those who would not believe in Him.

If Jesus did not die for the unbeliever's sins?
Satan as their defense attorney would appeal their case for all eternity, claiming that God made it impossible for them to believe.

So, God stopped Satan before he could make a case!

 

[Rufus]

Yep! I was recently mocked when someone accused me of following "systematic" studying. I have no idea what that is. All that I know is that I was desperate to understand my Spiritual experience, and that event launched me into the most unbelievable study I can imagine. One of which was to highlight one of my entire Bibles with different-colored highlighters. I highlighted per thought. I would offer that if others did the same thing, perhaps their ideas of the Bible might change. Because of my forms of study, it bothers me none when I am labeled and belittled from "christians," the least patient and kind people on the planet.

And the mockers conveniently forget that the LOGOS is the Author of LOGIC! He is the Lord of Logic and Lord of Order!

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

God knowing in his omniscience that many would not believe, is not to be construed to mean he caused them not to believe.

Romans 11:7-8 NLT - "So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. 8 As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

What amazes me about "christians" is that they represent God's Holy Word . . . and they don't even read it. "christians" don't know their own Book.

 

[Genez]

What amazes me about "christians" is that they represent God's Holy Word . . . and they don't even read it. "christians" don't know their own Book.

They read it plenty... From too often times translations that are not exacting in its rendering.

Trouble is they are not taught it to understand it from the original languages with great accuracy in its meaning.
I am not referring to word studies and concordances. I speak of pastors who actually know the Greek and Hebrew
to teach from it....

We really need more pastors who can teach from the original languages and able to explain in terms we will relate to.

It would make a world of difference.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

They read it plenty... From too often times translations that are not exacting in its rendering.

Trouble is they are not taught it to understand it from the original languages with great accuracy in its meaning.
I am not referring to word studies and concordances. I speak of pastors who actually know the Greek and Hebrew
to teach from it....

We really need more pastors who can teach from the original languages and able to explain in terms we will relate to.

It would make a world of difference.

But . . . . . . . . you just taught the world that God doesn't prevent people from believing. That is unquestionably false. Why would you do that?