I agree completely. with that. But we were discussing what someone needs to be saved, not what one needs to do to grow in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. By your theory, it sounds like all those who lived before the birth, death and resurrection of Christ needed to both have Jesus appear to them and have Jesus share with them what He was going to do to save the world. Otherwise how do you see them having a personal relationship with Christ. What do you believe pre-Jesus of Nazareth humans needed to experience in order to be saved?
The bare minimum as I understand it was to believe in the light they had been given. That is, whatever God had revealed to them they needed to embrace and acknowledge, and keep in their knowledge the God so revealed. that is what Romans 2 says.
Romans 1
0 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
The bare minimum as I understand it was to believe in the light they had been given. That is, whatever God had revealed to them they needed to embrace and acknowledge, and keep in their knowledge the God so revealed. that is what Romans 2 says.
Romans 1
0 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Secondly, you both keep ignoring the fact that even though God made some things about himself "plain" to men, the Natural Man's heart suppressed the truth because the Natural Man doesn't want to retain the one true God in his knowledge. In other words: Natural Man doesn't want to KNOW God! So, how is it possible for the unregenerate to believe in someone they hate and don't want to know!?
Biblical faith is a rational faith. Even natural faith in this world that is expressed on a horizontal level between people tells us this! We tend to trust only people we know. We instinctively don't trust strangers. This perverse, corrupt, dark, fallen world in which live, sir, does not operate on the Honor System. This is why we put locks on our doors, on our car ignitions, chains on our fences, passwords on sites that hold our sensitive information, why security guards are stationed in banks, why nations maintain standing armies to protect themselves, etc., etc. Trust among the sons of men is not exactly the world's strong suit.
Thirdly, man who doesn't want to retain God in their knowledge -- who doesn't want to know God -- has no understanding (v.31)! It's no wonder Paul, a couple of chapters later in his universal indictment of the fallen human race, said "No one understands"! Fallen man doesn't understand because he doesn't want to. "Free" will at work. "Free" will at its finest. Free TO...yet not Free FROM. So what does this make Natural Man? Well, according to Mr. Studier -- a staunch believer in free slaves -- he's as free as a slave. (It's absolutely incredible that people would rather believe in their own utterly absurd notions than in the Living Word of God.)
Finally, as pointed out recently from Jn 14:17, the Holy Spirit was always "with" the OT saints. The OT saints not only were guided by the Word but were also under the influence of the Holy Spirit. Of course, in this NC dispensation, God's people themselves have become his Temple by virtue of the gift of the indwelling Spirit.
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