Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
1,527
221
63
They had a whole new frame of reference...knowledge of good and evil. They were fundamentally altered by sin. Not only were they separated from God, but they were corrupted in every aspect of their being. Before sin, their inclination was towards God and they listened to His voice and desired and delighted in His company. After, they hid from His presence and made their own way apart from His word. They didn't retain God in their thoughts.
If what you just said were true? There would have been no need for God to give the Law of Moses.
Everyone would have just known what was wrong.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
2,772
331
83
You are dishonest in how you represent what other people have stated. And you have people able to get saved through the application of their conscience and will. You don't even need the Holy Spirit. This neither comports to the word of God or the reality of the condition of fallen man. The word of God alone is insufficient to salvation. To be born again requires water and Spirit. You have a man-centered view of salvation.
You call HeIsHere dishonest for misrepresenting what other people say, and then immediately misrepresent what HeIsHere said. HeIsHere did not say one does not need the Holy Spirit. HeIsHere did not say,

"People can hear and respond affirmatively to the Gospel message because of only the power of the truth and their own conscience." The Holy Spirit, as the Spirit of Truth, is working to confirm truth to everyone. He is not just interested in religious truths. God made the universe, and He is interested in affirming whatever is true in the universe He made.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
2,772
331
83
If what you just said were true? There would have been no need for God to give the Law of Moses.
Everyone would have just known what was wrong.
Firstly, the law included painful sanctions against the most egregious destructive behaviours. This slowed down the leaven leavening the entire Israelite nation.
Secondly, because God had not been reckoning men's sins against them before the law, they were presuming God did not care about sin.
Thirdly, without a God-ordained standard of goodness, men were comparing themselves with others and measuring themselves among themselves. and self-righteousness and pride were growing, and despising and mistreatment of the "less righteous" was increasing.
Among other things, the Law put the brakes on these three issues.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
16,369
5,721
113
62
Since they felt shame, I wonder if the evil they came to know was themselves.
I believe they were aware of having lost God's covering, and attempted to
fashion their own covering, which was of course inferior, and God replaced
with the first shedding of blood.
They certainly became capable of evil, but I doubt they saw themselves as evil. After all, they each blamed someone else for their sin.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
16,369
5,721
113
62
It is a given that God saves through means. But we read that we are "saved by grace through faith". And Jesus tells people their faith has saved them. And God reckons faith to us as righteousness, in which case our faith in the present has saved us in the present from unrighteousness and into a living relationship with the living God.

.
All true in this regard. But I was responding to a post that was suggesting more than this.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
16,369
5,721
113
62
Does God only save those whose faith includes creedal tenets that were innovated by Christians concerning Christ? It is faith in God, based on what God has said to an individual in their historical context, through His handiwork and the person's conscience and spirit and mind, that God reckons to him/her as righteousness. It is faith in God to believe what God has revealed to one, whatever is revealed, and such faith closes the gap between the person and God that the person had assumed existed because of their sin and/or their distrust of God. Otherwise how was it possible for did old testament saints have a relationship with God . And how was it possible for Gentiles to have any relationship with God before they confessed the New Covenant creeds about Christ?

.
OT saints knew much more than you seem to think. They knew grace. They knew faith. They knew to walk by faith and not sight. They knew they needed a redeemer and that He lived. They knew about preaching. They knew about atonement and blood sacrifice. And that's all in the first half of the book of Genesis. Long before the law. They might not have known His name as Jesus, but they knew that God would provide Himself a lamb. And while they saw the promises from afar, they had every assurance that the promises belonged to them. They didn't simply believe that God existed. They interacted with Him. They experienced His presence and protection and provision. They believed what He said was true for them. They heard His voice and followed Him.
Everything that is true for new covenant believers is found in the OT. It was concealed, but present. And God revealed these things to those under grace. And this is so because the covenant of grace was in place before the foundation of the world.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
5,365
1,681
113
Once again Cameron, I've refused to answer nothing you're suggesting.

It seems elaborations are difficult for you to digest, so I'll simplify things for you by excerpting:





Hopefully you can see that I'm not normally prone to answering leading questions simplistically.

What guts your argument is your unwillingness or inability to read Galatians in context and answer whether or not Paul was afraid that some in Christ would fall from grace and be released from Christ. One does not fall from where one is not, nor does one get released from where one is not held, and so on with every phrase Paul puts forth in his warning and commands to those in Christ.

IMO it is these systematic theological models that do not make use of the full counsel of God, but rather take one favored concept they base their model on and then deny what Scripture clearly says in context. That's presuppositional interpretation and a lack of harmonizing the full counsel.
So you believe we have to earn our salvation? Where do you see this in scrupture?
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
5,365
1,681
113
Collaborating in [experiential] sanctification is the same as collaborating in being saved. And Salvation has a start and a Finish. If we want to finish, then we cannot desert and fall from grace which is to depart from faith. It's men who make up games where everybody who enters wins.
No
we are already saved now we are living out our salvation

We do not and can not do Anything to keep ourself saved
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
1,515
155
63
Agree, and make no mistake this is an Augustinian belief system is ubiquitous in the churches.

Agree, if the scripture is not read with the character of Christ in mind might as well stop right there.
"Your faith has saved you" who would have thought Jesus making this declaration, the women placed her faith in Him is a problem.
Let's find a way to explain it away.


Your every wish is my command.

So, let me see...we have two saviors? YOUR faith and Jesus? Are they co-equal or does one get more credit than the other? How does that work? Does YOUR faith get to share in the glory of God's salvation, since it actually saves you?

In Mat 9:22; Mk 10:52 and Lk 18:42, we have Jesus telling various healed people that "your faith has healed you". I take it, then, that you must believe that the Object of their faith didn't heal them per se but their personal faith did? Their faith was the miracle-worker?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
16,369
5,721
113
62
If what you just said were true? There would have been no need for God to give the Law of Moses.
Everyone would have just known what was wrong.
The law has many purposes. It reveals much about God. It restrains sin. It also preserved Israel from destruction until Messiah.
Did anyone need to tell Cain that murder was wrong? Did God need the law to pass judgment on all mankind?
And knowing what is wrong doesn't empower one to do right. The law convicts. It also leads one to Christ.
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
3,812
1,622
113
I never said such things
Yes, you did, you supported them in your post. That's why I pointed it out.

but if you think that the Bible is not inspired, inerrant and infallible
Where did I say it wasn't? Maybe read before you respond.

and are confused by what it says
Nope I believe what it says, the problem is, you don't.


have not yet been made to understand who God truly is.
He says He wishes that none will perish. You don't believe what He says. Why even read the Bible?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
16,369
5,721
113
62
You call HeIsHere dishonest for misrepresenting what other people say, and then immediately misrepresent what HeIsHere said. HeIsHere did not say one does not need the Holy Spirit. HeIsHere did not say,

"People can hear and respond affirmatively to the Gospel message because of only the power of the truth and their own conscience." The Holy Spirit, as the Spirit of Truth, is working to confirm truth to everyone. He is not just interested in religious truths. God made the universe, and He is interested in affirming whatever is true in the universe He made.
That's fair. I should have worded it more carefully. No one is arguing that the Spirit isn't necessary. What I should have said is HeIsHere doesn't believe grace is necessary for faith. That is, God merely needs to present the gospel alone apart from making a change in the disposition of the hearer for salvation to occur. The only grace present is that the gospel is delivered.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
57,309
26,938
113
Now that I have you here for a moment....since you generally have sound spiritual insights, I'm wondering if you have ever come to terms with difficult passages like Prov 16:1, 9; 19:21; Job 23:13-14; Ps 110:3; Jer 10:23, etc. ? The common theme in these passages is the intersection where the sovereignty of God's will and man's meet. Have you ever given serious contemplation to these kinds of passages? And if so, would you mind sharing your insights? But if you haven't...don't feel badly about that either. These are not easy passages to reconcile.

I have some general ideas of my own but I would like to hear from you and even from others as to how they understand these passages.
I see those passages more as evidence of God's sovereignty .:)

People who hold that erroneous doctrine of free will sure might have a problem reconciling them with their un-Biblical ideas.

Perhaps they would tell us again what an unjust tyrant they believe God to be.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
6,579
1,878
113

From Romans 6:16-18 ~ Do you not know that you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you once were slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were committed. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
*thank you for the handy, and beautiful, verse reference.
If I were to rearrange the sentence structure without changing the meaning of this verse, it would read, 'But thanks be to God that, you were committed to the form of teaching you wholeheartedly obeyed, though you once were slaves to sin. You were set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness (re: being committed to wholeheartedly obeying the teaching).
Why, then, is thanks attributed to God if being set free is dependent on obedience to the teaching? Because, under the law, your obedience is counting in disobedience if at any time whatsoever you were disobedient in your obedience to sin, but God has brought us out of obedience to the law.

*Disclaimer: I don't mean, nor want, to approach these threads to argue over opinions but merely to exercise the liberty to present my own to autonomous minds for consideration, rather than attempt to produce any automatons after my likeness.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
57,309
26,938
113
*thank you for the handy, and beautiful, verse reference.
If I were to rearrange the sentence structure without changing the meaning of this verse, it would read, 'But thanks be to God that, you were committed to the form of teaching you wholeheartedly obeyed, though you once were slaves to sin. You were set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness (re: being committed to wholeheartedly obeying the teaching).
Why, then, is thanks attributed to God if being set free is dependent on obedience to the teaching? Because, under the law, your obedience is counting in disobedience if at any time whatsoever you were disobedient in your obedience to sin, but God has brought us out of obedience to the law.

*Disclaimer: I don't mean, nor want, to approach these threads to argue over opinions but merely to exercise the liberty to present my own to autonomous minds for consideration, rather than attempt to produce any automatons after my likeness.
Yes. I hear you... and I think what so many miss or kick and scream about, is that it is God working in us
that gives us that freedom from bondage to sin. Why do people kick and scream against it? Because it
conflicts with their idea that man's will is free despite the clear teaching of Scripture to the contrary.


PS~ You are welcome! I've added John 8:34 to the panel... :D


From Romans 6:16-18 ~ Do you not know that you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you once were slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were committed. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
6,579
1,878
113
Yes. I hear you... and I think what so many miss or kick and scream about, is that it is God working in us
that gives us that freedom from bondage to sin. Why do people kick and scream against it? Because it
conflicts with their idea that man's will is free despite the clear teaching of Scripture to the contrary.
I believe that we make ourselves slaves in that, thinking in terms of the law, once a sin is committed the mentality leans toward, 'well, I might as well go all in since I'm no less lost, so..." but we are set free once we realize that there is, nonetheless, hope.. in the law of Christ.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
57,309
26,938
113
I believe that we make ourselves slaves in that, thinking in terms of the law, once a sin is committed the mentality leans toward, 'well, I might as well go all in since I'm no less lost, so..." but we are set free once we realize that there is, nonetheless, hope.. in the law of Christ.
Those verses that speak of being slaves to sin have to do with the lost/unregenerated.

Do you think they apply to Christians?
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
6,579
1,878
113
Those verses that speak of being slaves to sin have to do with the lost/unregenerated.

Do you think they apply to Christians?
The references verse says, "though you were once slaves to sin."
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
57,309
26,938
113
The references verse says, "though you were once slaves to sin."
It didn't seem clear to me who you were referring to... Since you mentioned those as being no less lost and finding hope in the law of Christ...