Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR
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Yes,
It is actually a mining term, it means to work out what is already there
We are already saved, he said to work that salvation out.
He did not say to work to earn that salvation.
Your already saved.. just like the valuable items the miners are working out is already there, You have to work it out to get the benefits of whats already there.
It is actually a mining term, it means to work out what is already there
We are already saved, he said to work that salvation out.
He did not say to work to earn that salvation.
Your already saved.. just like the valuable items the miners are working out is already there, You have to work it out to get the benefits of whats already there.
Peter 2:1-5
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their riotousnesses, through whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you. Whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their perdition slumbereth not. 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but delivered them, drawn down by infernal ropes to the lower hell, unto torments, to be reserved unto judgment. 5 And spared not the original world, but preserved Noe, the eighth person, the preacher of justice, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly.
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their riotousnesses, through whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you. Whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their perdition slumbereth not. 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but delivered them, drawn down by infernal ropes to the lower hell, unto torments, to be reserved unto judgment. 5 And spared not the original world, but preserved Noe, the eighth person, the preacher of justice, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly.
It's a very simple couple of verses with a very simple Greek word that is not really a mining term. It's simply an intensified form of the word we translate as "work" and the intensification emphasizes the sense of accomplishing by work.
If you read what I wrote, I said we're (we are) saved then being saved... In this being saved phase we Christians are working with God to accomplish the salvation we have from God. This is very clear in those 2 verses no matter what sensitivities translators have had through the centuries.
We're essentially saying the same thing. I'm just not as sensitive as others when it comes to overprotecting against work in salvation where Scripture is clear that God is providing His capacities to His children so they can both will and do what pleases Him = working with Him to accomplish what He has given us to do.
If you read what I wrote, I said we're (we are) saved then being saved... In this being saved phase we Christians are working with God to accomplish the salvation we have from God. This is very clear in those 2 verses no matter what sensitivities translators have had through the centuries.
We're essentially saying the same thing. I'm just not as sensitive as others when it comes to overprotecting against work in salvation where Scripture is clear that God is providing His capacities to His children so they can both will and do what pleases Him = working with Him to accomplish what He has given us to do.
Lets see,
I am told I will never die
I am told I will live forever
I am told I will be raised on the last day
I am told I was sealed by the spirit until the day of ressurection.
I am told I will never be lost
I am told I have overcome the world
I am told I will spend eternity with God.
so yeah. I would say it is eternal. Based on the hope that was given me, and my trust in that hope..
do you?
I am told I will never die
I am told I will live forever
I am told I will be raised on the last day
I am told I was sealed by the spirit until the day of ressurection.
I am told I will never be lost
I am told I have overcome the world
I am told I will spend eternity with God.
so yeah. I would say it is eternal. Based on the hope that was given me, and my trust in that hope..
do you?
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You should do some study
Katergazomai - "Work out" doesn't mean simply "work hard at something," as when we do a physical workout. Katergazomai here means something like "bring forth" or "bring out into view" what is already within. The Roman scholar Strabo, in his discourse on geography (60 BC), uses katergazomai when describing mining operations.
yes I read this, alot of people think this, then claim we must keep ourself saved, if we do not finish our being saved, we will be lost.. I am trying to determine which one you are. I have not yet made up my mind, because you seem to be saying both. But I do not want to assume
SO you have to accomplish what you already have? what if you do not accomplish it?
eph 2: 10 says we are saved by grace through faith. and those who are saved will work.
Work in a believe is not a must, it is a result.
sadly many think it is a must..
Katergazomai - "Work out" doesn't mean simply "work hard at something," as when we do a physical workout. Katergazomai here means something like "bring forth" or "bring out into view" what is already within. The Roman scholar Strabo, in his discourse on geography (60 BC), uses katergazomai when describing mining operations.
yes I read this, alot of people think this, then claim we must keep ourself saved, if we do not finish our being saved, we will be lost.. I am trying to determine which one you are. I have not yet made up my mind, because you seem to be saying both. But I do not want to assume
SO you have to accomplish what you already have? what if you do not accomplish it?
eph 2: 10 says we are saved by grace through faith. and those who are saved will work.
Work in a believe is not a must, it is a result.
sadly many think it is a must..
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This makes sense to me ... I think I may have discussed this with you before, not sure how far that conversation went but "saved" also is connected to the physical and the soul, not always saved (regeneration).
I would say a lot of what Paul writes is about the salvation of the soul.
When the writers of the epistles wrote they were addressing those whom they believed were an audience born from above, unless they are addressing an interlocutor as in the Book of James.
In this way scripture is not contradictory. Growing up in culture that uses "saved" many different ways I completely understand the expressive style.
On the other hand, all men intuitively know the Law:
Rom 2:14-15
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
NIV
Rom 2:14-15
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
NIV
Now, now. Keep it civil and please don't tell me what I should do.
Just because one person in history is referenced to have used a word a certain way does not mean all referenced sources used it that way.
The word is used 32x in Scripture. Phl2:12 is the only time translators chose to translate it as "work out" and IMO it's clear why - because they are being sensitive to not get close to the works salvation issue, which also IMO is overprotected to the point of absurdity. IMO it's simply another example of how men swing the pendulum too far to the opposite extreme instead of coming to a balanced and Biblical view of what is and is not Biblical works.
Thanks for not assuming, but you do seem to be leaning towards assuming. How about I leave it like this:
I'm note sure exactly what you're saying in your second sentence, so the following may or may not be applicable.
So, how is Eph2:10 not comparable to Phil2:12-13 both written by Paul?
And how is a result not a must? We're created for the purpose of good works, but we don't have to do them?
Just because one person in history is referenced to have used a word a certain way does not mean all referenced sources used it that way.
The word is used 32x in Scripture. Phl2:12 is the only time translators chose to translate it as "work out" and IMO it's clear why - because they are being sensitive to not get close to the works salvation issue, which also IMO is overprotected to the point of absurdity. IMO it's simply another example of how men swing the pendulum too far to the opposite extreme instead of coming to a balanced and Biblical view of what is and is not Biblical works.
Thanks for not assuming, but you do seem to be leaning towards assuming. How about I leave it like this:
- We are saved by grace through faith
- Under grace in faith we do what we're commanded to do as our Father provides His capacities so we can work with Him to accomplish our salvation with fear and trembling.
- If someone is not doing this, then I'd be concerned at minimum that he will be under discipline by our Father or that He did not grant him to His Son.
- We do what we're commanded to do and Phil2:13 is attached to and explains 2:12.
- Salvation is a process and a project. Processes and projects are to be accomplished/completed.
- See above re: your second question.
I'm note sure exactly what you're saying in your second sentence, so the following may or may not be applicable.
So, how is Eph2:10 not comparable to Phil2:12-13 both written by Paul?
And how is a result not a must? We're created for the purpose of good works, but we don't have to do them?
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A concept similar to that of Romans 10:17 regarding faith, in that faith must first spiritually be given and present within us, and by that, through the hearing of scripture, does it intellectually manifest itself unto us.
[Rom 10:17 KJV] 17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
[Rom 10:17 KJV] 17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Then do not try to tell me I am wrong when you have not studied.
It was more than one person. It was used by Many romans,,
Not sure what your trying to say here
I am trying not to assume thats why I ask questions..
I am with you here
So if we do not complete it are we still saved?
see this is why I ask, It appears your saying we have to continue to save ourself. I evidently am not the only one who thinks this, It may be by how you word things.
lol. see your towing the line that we must work or we will not be saved.
I ask you. why is it a MUST if it is a WILL.
Works are a byproduct of salvation, Not a prerequisite to be saved.
I still to this moment do not know what you really believe concerning eternal life and eternal salvation.
It was more than one person. It was used by Many romans,,
Not sure what your trying to say here
I am trying not to assume thats why I ask questions..
I am with you here
- We do what we're commanded to do and Phil2:13 is attached to and explains 2:12.
- Salvation is a process and a project. Processes and projects are to be accomplished/completed.
- See above re: your second question.
So if we do not complete it are we still saved?
see this is why I ask, It appears your saying we have to continue to save ourself. I evidently am not the only one who thinks this, It may be by how you word things.
lol. see your towing the line that we must work or we will not be saved.
I ask you. why is it a MUST if it is a WILL.
Works are a byproduct of salvation, Not a prerequisite to be saved.
I still to this moment do not know what you really believe concerning eternal life and eternal salvation.