Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

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Mar 14, 2011
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We're talking about believers right? To what degree of sinning or sins does the love of God stop? In other words what sins or how many sins can a believer commit before God says alright I'm done with you, you're no longer saved?
The penalty of sin is death. (All sin, not just certain ones)

Hen will they take head to this gospel truth.
 

KJV1611

Senior Member
Nov 23, 2013
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Interesting question KJV,

Seems to me not to be a matter of quantity, rather a heart attitude towards sin that would make the call.

Be reminded of the heart attitude of the day you were brought to repentance. Remember how zealous you were to do good works of repentance and righteousness. That can slip, especially if all you think of every day is why you don't have to keep yourself from sinning. Not saying you are just saying the topic can tend towards diluting the dedication of some to becoming more Christlike.

That said addressing the initial zeal and the importance of preserving or returning to it;

Rev 2:5 KJV Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Would that be the heart of the old man or the new man?
The old man was crucified with Christ (he can't resurrect as far as I know), the new man was born of God and cannot sin.

Reference verses:

Old Man
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

New Man
1Jn_5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
 
May 1, 2019
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Revelation is not the law of Moses.
That's silly.

:)

Just looking at "Torah" as anything that instructs;

H8451
תּורה
torah (435d); from H3384; direction, instruction, law: - custom (1), instruction (10), instructions (1), Law (1), law (188), laws (10), ruling (1), teaching (7), teachings (1).

If Revelations has instructions that they are "Torah".

If Pauls epistles has instructions/laws then it is "Torah";

for example and germane to your first questions;

1Th 5:22 KJV Abstain from all appearance of evil.

:)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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If it has to be spelled out not to eat anything strangled then look for that.
I think you think I'm talking about something I am not.

Did the council give the gentiles commands from the law of the Sinai covenant aka Moses law aka Torah aka "the law" or not?

If yes, what? Where is strangled / meat that might have been blessed by a idol in there?
If no, then what are these instructions, and why?

This is about, someone is taking acts 15:29 to say the gentiles are being given commands from Moses. Is that true, or is that person wrong?
If they are wrong, then what is the actual truth of it?

First things first. Can we find 'do not eat strangled / blessed by idol meat' in the 5 books of the law?
If all we find is 'well thou shalt have not other gods' so we can infer something then we're saying they're being given rules from Talmud, not from Torah. What I want to know is if those rules are actually specifically things forbidden in the law of Moses?
 
May 1, 2019
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Would that be the heart of the old man or the new man?
The old man was crucified with Christ (he can't resurrect as far as I know), the new man was born of God and cannot sin.

Reference verses:

Old Man
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

New Man
1Jn_5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
In reference to Rev 2:5 and it's correlation the the verses in Hebrews you were seeking answers to...the one being addressed there. And don't tell me your dog ate your homework! ;)
 
May 1, 2019
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I think you think I'm talking about something I am not.

Did the council give the gentiles commands from the law of the Sinai covenant aka Moses law aka Torah aka "the law" or not?

If yes, what? Where is strangled / meat that might have been blessed by a idol in there?
If no, then what are these instructions, and why?

This is about, someone is taking acts 15:29 to say the gentiles are being given commands from Moses. Is that true, or is that person wrong?
If they are wrong, then what is the actual truth of it?

First things first. Can we find 'do not eat strangled / blessed by idol meat' in the 5 books of the law?
If all we find is 'well thou shalt have not other gods' so we can infer something then we're saying they're being given rules from Talmud, not from Torah. What I want to know is if those rules are actually specifically things forbidden in the law of Moses?
I think the scripture can speak for itself, and as far as what the apostles have said, I have made a comment already. Move on.
 

KJV1611

Senior Member
Nov 23, 2013
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Let's take a look at the context.

But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle (The Veil that is to say, his flesh), not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh ( purge your conscience (our inner man)): How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience (our inner man, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh ) from dead works (sin, acts the cause death. For the wages of sins death) to serve the living God?
(Heb 9:11-14 KJV)

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect (purge your conscience, our inner man, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh ). For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged (sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh ) should have had no more conscience of sins (sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh) . But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins (sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh ). Wherefore when he (Jesus) cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I (the writer of Hebrews or us for that Matter), Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he (Jesus), Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified (our inner man purged, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh )through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: (purge our conscience, our inner man, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh from dead works, sin, acts the cause death to serve the living God) But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected (purge our conscience our inner man, sanctified to the purifying of the flesh from dead works, sin acts the cause death to serve the living God) for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof (BECAUSE this is how they are perfected) the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus (perfected, purge our conscience our inner man, sanctified to the purifying of the flesh from dead works, sin acts the cause death to serve the living God) , By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh ( The true Tabernacle, not made by hands); And having an high priest over the house (Us through the veil that is His flesh, the Body of Christ, the Temple) of God; Let us draw near with a true heart (Perfected, laws in our hearts, and in our minds) in full assurance of faith (boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus), having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience (the old man purged to serve the living God), and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised; ) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For (BECAUSE) if we sin wilfully after that we have received (Getting) the knowledge (recognition) of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins....Let us go on unto perfection (sanctified to the purifying of the flesh from dead works, sin acts the cause death to serve the living God); not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works (sin, acts the cause death. For the wages of sins death) , and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened (Illuminated, having received (Got) the knowledge (recognition) of the truth), and have tasted (experienced) of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers (sharers) of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted (experienced) the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, (sin willfully) to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


(Heb 10:1-26; 6:1-6)
I read this post three times and I really didn't see anything I disagree with. :)
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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  • Someone said the instructions to the Gentiles in Acts 15 are from Moses Law
  • Revelation is not from Moses.
  • I can't find 'don't eat anything that has been waved before an idol' in Torah, or 'don't eat anything that has been strangled'
  • If the rationale is that they were telling the Gentiles they must obey the law of Exodus 34 Exodus 34 doesn't say anything about not eating strangled or waves-in-front-of-idol food. It says literally, Destroy all the idol centers. That's not what the church did or instructed, so I think you are wrong. That is not the rationale here.
  • It is significant that the council gives these specific instructions and refuses to instruct 'keep the law'
  • If these are not things specifically in the law it is wrong to say they are
  • If they are not things in the law then the significance of these things is something entirely different
  • We ought to understand exactly what the significance is, both so were not deceived and so we don't go about preaching deception to others
  • It would be deception to say they are being told to keep Torah.
  • It would be deception to say they are being told to keep the interpretations in the Talmud.
Post, you're nitpicked a point to detract from the greater point which is, these gentiles WERE told to follow a dietary law that IS in the Torah (which wasn't even the point of contention between the pharisees and Paul).

Even if we ignore food sacrificed to idols and food strangled (which is covered by the Torah) it still leaves the ones given to the gentiles that clearly are in there. And all we need is one law since "even one law places one under the complete yoke of bondage" as is the argument.

Were the gentiles being judaized? Were the leaders purposely making gentiles stumble and to deny Christ? Or is there a better understanding as to what's going on here?


Regarding food sacrificed to idols...

Exodus 34:14
For you must not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

I think it's clear that sacrificing food to an idol is an "act of worship". As I'm sure you know (because you're well versed in the scriptures), food that's sacrificed to Yah was dedicated, eaten and/or burned completely by the priests of Yah. Nothing was to be left. That is the act of worship regarding food. For the priests of Yah to eat food that has been dedicated to another god - for instance, prayed over to Zeus before consumption - it's worshipping that god.


Regarding strangled meat...

An animal killed by strangulation is not an animal properly slaughtered (i.e. killed by draining its blood). Life is in the blood, "do not eat animals with the life still in them."

We're called pharisees here on CC, but you're playing the lawyer right now, looking for loopholes, when you know this makes sense, Post.

-----

But even if you don't agree with this, there still leaves eating food with blood (which isn't a moral law, but one specifically about obeying Yah that's found in the law of Moses). What is your opinion about the greater point? Did the leaders place the new gentile converts under bondage to the law of Moses thus denying Christ?
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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You’re right! Abraham and David were justified by grace through faith. Well, I don’t claim to have a perfect understanding of Scripture – I’m here to learn, not to teach.

I think the term “salvation by grace” is quite confusing, so let me put my statement another way: Salvation by the blood of Jesus was not available before the crucifixion.

It is evident in the Gospels that the physical Jesus never preached redemption by his blood. When the rich young ruler asked about eternal life, the Lord answer: “Keep the commandments”.

Throughout the four gospels we see the Lord Jesus expounding the Law of Moses and not once did he tell his disciples to stop keeping it.

So, my question is: Who told us to stop keeping the Law of Moses? I would like to hear your opinion about this.
By the way, my position would be that all believers, before and after Christ, were justified by his blood. The atonement had not occurred in time and space yet, and the recipients under the Mosaic Law didn't know the precise details, but they knew God would provide for them. I believe they knew some of the details, though. Job said, I know that my Redeemer lives....Abraham looked forward to Jesus' day...so I believe the content of their faith was known in some vague, shadowy way and it would not be unreasonable to assume that their faith had more content than we may have confirmed for us in the Scriptures. Either way, Romans 4 indicates they were justified by faith.

I like your attitude but just wanted to make a few more remarks regarding this to clarify my position. Don't take it as a criticism.

By the way, John called Jesus the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world, too..an inference to the Passover lamb.
 

KJV1611

Senior Member
Nov 23, 2013
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In reference to Rev 2:5 and it's correlation the the verses in Hebrews you were seeking answers to...the one being addressed there. And don't tell me your dog ate your homework! ;)
In my opinion Revelation 2:5 has no relationship with Hebrews 10 because Revelation 2:5 is written to an entire church concerning losing their lamp stand while Hebrews is about individuals hearing the truth that they are sinners and continuing in their sins rather than accepting the free gift. They received KNOWLEDGE... not salvation. Once a person is aware of their sins (by hearing the word), and they reject the remedy, there is no more sacrifice for their sins.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

That's all that Hebrews 10:26 is talking about, hearing the word, rejecting it, and not being covered by the blood. This some how gets conflated into a believer who sins willfully losing their salvation.

And again I ask, which man, the old man who is crucified (dead) or the new man (that can not sin), WILLFULLY sins? The answer is neither, because it's not possible for either sin period.

That means Hebrews 10 CANNOT be talking about a believer. It's not possible.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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these gentiles WERE told to follow a dietary law that IS in the Torah
Are they?

Where is no-strangled-meat and where is no-food-that-has-been-blessed-by-idols in the Law?

I'm trying to determine if this is 'because you say so' or if it's actually true.

I looked. I can't find it. Show me the verses, please?
 
May 1, 2019
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In my opinion Revelation 2:5 has no relationship with Hebrews 10 because Revelation 2:5 is written to an entire church concerning losing their lamp stand while Hebrews is about individuals hearing the truth that they are sinners and continuing in their sins rather than accepting the free gift. They received KNOWLEDGE... not salvation. Once a person is aware of their sins (by hearing the word), and they reject the remedy, there is no more sacrifice for their sins.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

That's all that Hebrews 10:26 is talking about, hearing the word, rejecting it, and not being covered by the blood. This some how gets conflated into a believer who sins willfully losing their salvation.

And again I ask, which man, the old man who is crucified (dead) or the new man (that can not sin), WILLFULLY sins? The answer is neither, because it's not possible for either sin period.

That means Hebrews 10 CANNOT be talking about a believer. It's not possible.
So then you were not looking for an answer? Just an opportunity to give yours?

You could have just made a statement. :)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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an animal properly slaughtered (i.e. killed by draining its blood)
Is that how you hunt deer? Bleeding them to death?

That's bogus.

You can drain the blood from an animal no matter how it's killed, I don't see 'you must only eat what has been killed by bleeding to death' in scripture, and moreover then the council is being superfluous because they already said, don't eat blood.
 
May 1, 2019
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Are they?

Where is no-strangled-meat and where is no-food-that-has-been-blessed-by-idols in the Law?

I'm trying to determine if this is 'because you say so' or if it's actually true.

I looked. I can't find it. Show me the verses, please?
Did you miss the part about how animals were to be drained of blood before they were eaten. See OT

If so, think of how the blood remains in an animal that is strangled. That is the larger point.
 
May 1, 2019
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Is that how you hunt deer? Bleeding them to death?

That's bogus.

You can drain the blood from an animal no matter how it's killed, I don't see 'you must only eat what has been killed by bleeding to death' in scripture, and moreover then the council is being superfluous because they already said, don't eat blood.

SCRAPPY! Get up on the wrong side of the bed?