Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

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Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Greetings Y & NayborBear!,

Been busy here too. Just stepped in to cool down, I know everyone thinks it is "September", but it is actually "August" both climatically and spiritually. I grow wheat, barley, flax and rye every year to get a better idea where we are in our Creators timeline rather that Pope Gregory's calendar timeline.

The Barley usually forms grain heads some time in early to mid March, but this year the heads did not appear until early June! Is that unusual? Yes, very. Now I have only been growing them for 6 years so I don't have a long historical database to compare it too, but everything is about 1.5 to 2 months late this year! There is a Civil calendar such as the Gregorian calendar, but there is a separate calendar for Gods festivals that runs according to His timeline that we reckon each year, I think!

Prattling on.

Good to see you here. Off to the fields again.

SG
Hi SG!

Your post got me thinking, isn't there something in the law about all lands being returned to their ancestral clans every 50 years?

The land that you are using to farm grains on, who would it be returned to?

Would everyone in the USA have to go back to Europe or wherever they came from, because all the land would be returned to descendants of native Americans?

I could see some positives in the
concept. It would probably limit the growth of the super rich and of giant corporations, which (my liberal economic opinion here) are probably not good.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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Hi SG!

Your post got me thinking, isn't there something in the law about all lands being returned to their ancestral clans every 50 years?

The land that you are using to farm grains on, who would it be returned to?

Would everyone in the USA have to go back to Europe or wherever they came from, because all the land would be returned to descendants of native Americans?

I could see some positives in the
concept. It would probably limit the growth of the super rich and of giant corporations, which (my liberal economic opinion here) are probably not good.
If I can cut in to say, that's an interesting thought. :unsure:

It's possible, but I don't think the jubilee applies to any land other than Israel's.

Also, if I remember correctly, the land has to be claimed by its original owner in time else it stays in the possession of the new owner.

I'll have to reread that section to confirm this.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. That was His stated primary purpose for everything He did.
how do you get 'primary purpose' ?
He said He came to do this, yes, but did He say '
this is my primary purpose' ?

  • He said He came to call sinners ((Mark 2:17))
  • He said He came to do the will of the Father ((John 6:38))
  • He said He came to bring light to those who believe ((John 12:46))
  • He said He came to bear witness to the truth ((John 18:37))
  • He said He came to give eternal life to whosoever would eat ((John 6:51))
  • He said He came to proclaim the gospel, to set free captives and open the eyes of the blind, to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor ((Luke 4:18-19))
  • He said He came for judgement ((John 9:39-41))
  • He said He came to serve, and to give His life as a ransom ((Mark 10:45))
  • He said He came to seek and to save the lost ((Luke 19:9-10))
  • He said He came to bring a sword ((Matthew 10:34))
  • He said He came that whoever drinks will never thirst again ((John 4:13-14))
of which of these does He say, 'my stated primary purpose' ?
you sure you're not zeroing in on one, to the exclusion of the others?
how did you pick Matthew 5:16-17 out as "
number one primary reason" ?

i tend to think, taking all these sayings together ((and this list isn't exclusive)), they coalesce into one purpose, which is His work, which none of them by themselves are adequate to fully convey -- that they're all saying the same thing, but that thing is so great, so sublime, that individual descriptions of it only give a glimpse.
we need to see them all, together, to illuminate the truth -- which, if i had to pick one, based on what the scripture actually says, this is probably the closest to 'my primary purpose' -- speaking to Pilate He says:

You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.
(John 18:37)


 

RickStudies

Active member
Sep 10, 2019
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Jeremiah 31 was fulfilled when the people returned from Babylonian exile.

A portion of the chapter is about the age to come. This is not fulfilled.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
 

RickStudies

Active member
Sep 10, 2019
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"He ascended without finishing the task."

Maybe that's where you and I would really differ in our interpretation, then.

I think that your interpretation would require Jesus to have said something more like
I came to start the process of fulfilling the law and the process, and I will come again to complete the process.
You are twisting my words. Jesus fulfilled the Law. He didn`t fulfill all the prophecies which is why there must be another age on this earth before "new earth".
 

RickStudies

Active member
Sep 10, 2019
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Indeed, He will speak to this people
Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue,
He who said to them, “Here is rest, give rest to the weary,”
And, “Here is repose,” but they would not listen.
So the word of the Lord to them will be,
“Order on order, order on order,
Line on line, line on line,
A little here, a little there,”
That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive.
Therefore, hear the word of the Lord, O scoffers,
Who rule this people who are in Jerusalem,
Because you have said, “We have made a covenant with death,
And with Sheol we have made a pact.
The overwhelming scourge will not reach us when it passes by,
For we have made falsehood our refuge and we have concealed ourselves with deception.”
Therefore thus says the Lord God,
“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone,
A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed.
He who believes in it will not be disturbed.
“I will make justice the measuring line
And righteousness the level;
Then hail will sweep away the refuge of lies
And the waters will overflow the secret place.
“Your covenant with death will be canceled,
And your pact with Sheol will not stand;
When the overwhelming scourge passes through,
Then you become its trampling place.
“As often as it passes through, it will seize you;
For morning after morning it will pass through, anytime during the day or night,
And it will be sheer terror to understand what it means.”
(Isaiah 28:11-19)

He offered rest, but they would not.
therefore, line on line, precept on precept.
in order that they stumble and fall and be broken.
they boasted in a covenant of death, refuge in a lie.
therefore, a cornerstone laid in Zion.


what is this talking about?
Paul, writing by the Spirit, gives us some of the interpretation here, where he quotes it:


What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
just as it is written,
“BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”
(Romans 9:30-33)
The pact with death is the treaty Israel will one day conclude with the antichrist. You aren`t near as sharp as I thought you were.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
if it's about 'traditions/precepts of men' then why does it say 'the law' ?
Paul certainly has a big enough Greek vocabulary to use the word for 'traditions of men'


aren't we talking about 'the law'? is it supposed to be, 'for what the completely uninspired, totally man-made & unscriptural traditions could not do, in that they were weak through the flesh.. ' ?
surely you don't believe it's like PS says, the Torah is actually all Moses speaking for a false pagan god?
Who is greater?
Jesus?
Or, He who sent Jesus?
One cannot keep on "robbing the Father", and "heaping the spoils" onto the Son! Without considering the "consequences!"
Isaiah 28
13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. :cry:

2 Thessalonians 2
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2 Timothy 2
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
 

RickStudies

Active member
Sep 10, 2019
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I understand the frustrating part man!
Just keep "putting it out there!"
Something I have learned from my time in CC, is that there are people in here reading and watching, although, they may not "participate?" That "see/feel" things "differently", then "the majority."
And, there are "believers" at different "stages" of development and growth.

Most in here that do participate believe "saved by grace through faith" and "walking in love", is enough. And, that's as much "healing" as they wish, or that they are willing to be healed. As "love" covers a multitude of sin! Even the "sin/s" of not even recognizing Mosaic Law, nor even the 10 commandments, in some cases. o_O
Nor, any reason to!
(I could go on and on. And shall! ;)....But not in this post. :p)

Just keep "putting it out there!"
I prefer to pray for a speedy knee recovery.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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I was asked this once before and my answer created a bunch of hysterics. Seems to be the norm around here. I`ll give you the same answer anyway.

Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. That was His stated primary purpose for everything He did. He ascended without finishing the task. He will not return until Israel is ready for Him to finish His task. When He does return His purpose will be to fulfill the Prophets and keep God`s word.

The New Covenant cannot be implemented until He returns because Jeremiah chapter 31 must be fulfilled.

Romans 11

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
This very scripture shows you what will happen with Jews when they come to Christ. And should show you that we are in the New Covenant RIGHT NOW.

Romans 11:23-24
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?


They will be grafted into the same olive tree that Christians are enjoying RIGHT NOW.

They will be grafted into the same New Covenant that Christians are enjoying RIGHT NOW.


If they abide not still in unbelief. Which, HOW CAN THEY not abide in unbelief if you are telling them they must wait for some future return of Christ before they can be grafted back in???

I'm not blaming this entirely on you. This is what most Christians who have a carnal view of the bible think. They think there is 1 covenant for the Jews and 1 for everyone else. Just most others don't understand the implications of what they are saying and you do.

But this can't be true if we are all grafted in to the same olive tree.
 

RickStudies

Active member
Sep 10, 2019
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that's poor math, mate.

if we were talking about love, then yes, our English language is insufficient, and sometimes a nuance of what the scripture is saying may be lost, because we have substituted through translation, one word 'love' for several different words in the original text.

when we are talking about {covenant, will, testament, contract} then we are in an opposite case: there is one word in the original Greek, as you have been shown, for which through translation we have substituted several different words. in this case, we have added nuance that is not in the scriptural text.

let F be a function translating from Greek to English.
F(eros, storge, agape, philia) = {love}
F(diatheke) = {covenant, testament, will, contract, agreement, treaty}
in the first instance we have a loss of information in translation. nuances are all collapsed in the projection.
in the second instance we have an introduction of information. nuances are added in the projection.


F is neither 1:1 nor onto, and the situation with 'love' is completely different than the situation with 'diatheke'
you are quite wrong to say that gb9's point is irrelevant -- it is very relevant.
Let F function translating English to Greek. Your argument doesn`t work which why I ignore many of your questions.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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But this can't be true if we are all grafted in to the same olive tree.
amen, and here --


Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us — for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree” — so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
(Galatians 3:13-18)

it's not the olive tree 'of the law' into which we have been grafted -- but the olive tree of Abraham, planted 430 years before the law was added ((v.19)), which law cannot annul the promise which came before, and was ratified before. this ratification is the mystery of the burning lamp and the smoking firepot, in Genesis 15, which is Christ.
 

RickStudies

Active member
Sep 10, 2019
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This very scripture shows you what will happen with Jews when they come to Christ. And should show you that we are in the New Covenant RIGHT NOW.

Romans 11:23-24
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?


They will be grafted into the same olive tree that Christians are enjoying RIGHT NOW.

They will be grafted into the same New Covenant that Christians are enjoying RIGHT NOW.


If they abide not still in unbelief. Which, HOW CAN THEY not abide in unbelief if you are telling them they must wait for some future return of Christ before they can be grafted back in???

I'm not blaming this entirely on you. This is what most Christians who have a carnal view of the bible think. They think there is 1 covenant for the Jews and 1 for everyone else. Just most others don't understand the implications of what they are saying and you do.

But this can't be true if we are all grafted in to the same olive tree.
Once again, you have twisted my words making this post not worth bothering with.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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If I can cut in to say, that's an interesting thought. :unsure:

It's possible, but I don't think the jubilee applies to any land other than Israel's.

Also, if I remember correctly, the land has to be claimed by its original owner in time else it stays in the possession of the new owner.

I'll have to reread that section to confirm this.
It looks to me like it applies to all land everywhere, but I could see that it could be a matter of interpretation.

The only place I could find so far that talks about the year of jubilee is Leviticus 25.

I didn't see something about the original owners having to claim it in time.

I could really get behind the concept of this section
Leviticus 25: 23. "'The land shall not be sold in perpetuity, for the land is mine; for you are strangers and live as foreigners with me.

(And I'm talking about the concept behind the law here, not following the letter of the law.)

That idea that we cannot own land indefinitely, I say Amen to that!
Psalm 24: 1. <A Psalm. Of David.> The earth is the Lord's, with all its wealth; the world and all the people living in it.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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You are twisting my words. Jesus fulfilled the Law. He didn`t fulfill all the prophecies which is why there must be another age on this earth before "new earth".
I agree that he didn't fulfill all the prophecies.

I don't think he said that he came to fulfill all the prophecies, rather he came to fulfill the law and the prophets.

Matthew 7: 12. All those things, then, which you would have men do to you, even so do you to them: because
this is the law and the prophets.

I think this is what Jesus meant when he said he came to fulfill the law and the prophets.

This is what the law and the prophets point to.

Jesus fulfilled that, because being in the form of God he emptied himself, thus fulfilling in the utmost degree what the law and the prophets point to.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
“I and my Father are one.”
John 14
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. :unsure::unsure::unsure:

No distinction/discernment between the two, eh? :cry:

I'll agree, that honoring the Son, honors the Father!
To the point where the Son "overshadows" He who sent Him?
I ain't buyin' what yer pushin'!
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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Regarding the covenants, I'd like to add that in the scriptures we see covenants handled in two phases:

1. The establishing of the covenant with an initial fulfillment (sort of like a guarantee)

2. The later confirming of the promise in complete fulfillment on a larger scale.

----

Abraham was promised seed to bless the world. His son Isaac was the initial fulfillment of promised seed, but we know that it's later confirmed in Christ, and then will be much later confirmed in His body (Israel/children of the living God) for complete fulfillment.


Next, Israel was promised to be a treasured kingdom (contingent upon obedience). The initial fulfillment was the kingdom of ancient Israel in its hay day. But complete fulfillment occurs when Christ returns and ushers in the kingdom of heaven, confirming the covenant made at Sinai.


Finally, we consider the new covenant promise of the law being written on the hearts of Israel & Judah, and their sins being forgiven. This was established through Christ and His disciples, with initial fulfillment at Shavuot/Pentecost and recorded in the Acts of the Apostles. But the future complete fulfillment occurs when the remnant of the houses of Israel & Judah return and rejoin. They will not need to be taught; they will be one with the Holy One. These will teach the nations during the millennium, ruling with Christ.

I believe Ezekiel prophesies of both the initial fulfillment of the new covenant (Ezk 34:25) - which happened in the 1st century - and then its complete fulfillment (Ezk 36:26-27), still yet to occur in the future.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Did you miss the entire part where Jesus went back to all those who died under the law and offered grace? Yes, you did. Do you not believe in the power of repentance and forgiveness? If you do, why do you judge and condemn Gods servants? Do you not believe the same commands apply to you as they do everyone else? Do you not believe Jesus conquered death?
Romans 8
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.