Did Jesus Have an Advantage over Pre-Fall Adam During the Incarnation?

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posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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He denied Himself the right to act as God and instead relied on the power and authority of God the Father and Spirit for all that He said and did.
that position can't answer these questions:

why does He never once say "thus saith the LORD"?

why does He always say "Amen Amen I say unto you"?
 

Cameron143

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i don't believe God ever ceases to be God, and i believe that the very nature of God includes what Romans calls "His eternal power."

i also believe that an everlasting gobstopper that isn't actually everlasting is false advertisement.
I don't believe God ever ceases being God. That's not the issue, as I see it. The question is, being God and being man, did Jesus live, yet not Him, the Spirit lived within Him?
 

Cameron143

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refraining from doing something isn't the same as being incapable of doing something ;)

but when we talk about for example omniscience, that's not a quantitative capability or action; it's a qualitative attribute.
i can't stop knowing the sky is blue
I have the ability to manage my whole day. I can make every choice and decision. Or, I can walk in the Spirit and let God manage my whole day, and He can make every decision. Was Jesus operating in His strength and power, or the strength and power of the Spirit?
 

Cameron143

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that position can't answer these questions:

why does He never once say "thus saith the LORD"?

why does He always say "Amen Amen I say unto you"?
Jesus said He only did what He saw the Father doing. He also said that the words He spoke were from the One who sent Him.
 

posthuman

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I don't believe God ever ceases being God. That's not the issue, as I see it. The question is, being God and being man, did Jesus live, yet not Him, the Spirit lived within Him?
we may be trying to oversimplify something that's beyond our comprehension; He also is the Spirit, and He also is the Father - the equivalence never ceases even while the distinction is always present too.

with reference to Galatians 2:20, it is not the same for Christ. we say we no longer live, but Christ in us, because we have sinful natures that must be redeemed, through His death and resurrection. But Christ has no sinful nature to be put to death; He doesn't have a will that must be crucified. His nature and will is the nature and will of God, perfect. He cannot be tempted with sin: He was tested in every way and found pure.
 

Cameron143

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Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.

??
This is the closest I have found to what I asked. But as Jesus did only what He saw the Father doing, and spoke only the words of One who sent Him, it's inconclusive for me.
 

Cameron143

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we may be trying to oversimplify something that's beyond our comprehension; He also is the Spirit, and He also is the Father - the equivalence never ceases even while the distinction is always present too.

with reference to Galatians 2:20, it is not the same for Christ. we say we no longer live, but Christ in us, because we have sinful natures that must be redeemed, through His death and resurrection. But Christ has no sinful nature to be put to death; He doesn't have a will that must be crucified. His nature and will is the nature and will of God, perfect. He cannot be tempted with sin: He was tested in every way and found pure.
I agree that we are speaking to a subject that is beyond our comprehension.
And while Christ has not a sinful nature, He does have a dual nature. That being the case, just as we, He must operate under the operation of one or the other.
 

cv5

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Jesus said He only did what He saw the Father doing. He also said that the words He spoke were from the One who sent Him.
Right. He also commanded everything and anything and anyone He wanted. He Himself was also in complete and total control of every vicissitude and nuance of His tabernacling. He resurrected Himself. Absolutely clear beyond a shadow of a doubt.

All of those passages indicate the Oneness of God in will, essence and purpose.
His will and the will of the Father are One. Always was always will be.

Twisting them to drain Jesus of His Godhood is madness.

Yes, He came as a servant. Yes He humbled Himself. Yes he came to serve. Yes He will be a servant FOREVER as high priest.
But He is also King. With total authority. Which He exercised literally uncountable thousands of times in many ways.

Mat 20:28
“just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
Mar 10:45
“For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

This thread is full to the brim of absurd notions that do NOT fit the overall Biblical view of the incarnation.
If anyone does not understand what the Dramatic Theodicy is.....find out. Because anything the Trinity does in full view is for OUR learning as a display of Their heart toward Their creation.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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we may be trying to oversimplify something that's beyond our comprehension; He also is the Spirit, and He also is the Father - the equivalence never ceases even while the distinction is always present too.

with reference to Galatians 2:20, it is not the same for Christ. we say we no longer live, but Christ in us, because we have sinful natures that must be redeemed, through His death and resurrection. But Christ has no sinful nature to be put to death; He doesn't have a will that must be crucified. His nature and will is the nature and will of God, perfect. He cannot be tempted with sin: He was tested in every way and found pure.
On the way to the cross, Jesus did petition the Father to remove that cup from Him if possible, and then said, not My will but Your's be done... I'm paraphrasing cause I'm on my phone and I can't do the things I can on my laptop.
 

cv5

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On the way to the cross, Jesus did petition the Father to remove that cup from Him if possible, and then said, not my will but Your's be done... I'm paraphrasing cause I'm on my phone and I can't do the things I can on my laptop.
Yes. Which of course is to be expected. Lest the universe collapse.
 

cv5

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we may be trying to oversimplify something that's beyond our comprehension; He also is the Spirit, and He also is the Father - the equivalence never ceases even while the distinction is always present too.
Of course He is.....
Furthermore, it takes TWO FATHERS to negotiate the bride price. The Father of the bride and the Father of the Groom.

Isa 9:6
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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I agree that we are speaking to a subject that is beyond our comprehension.
Job 36:26 * Indeed God is great - beyond our knowledge. That's the BSB... other translations say, beyond our understanding, or, we know Him not :) Of course this is not to say we have no knowledge at all, or no understanding at all ... it's just that it is definitely incomplete.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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Right. He also commanded everything and anything and anyone He wanted. He Himself was also in complete and total control of every vicissitude and nuance of His tabernacling. He resurrected Himself. Absolutely clear beyond a shadow of a doubt.

All of those passages indicate the Oneness of God in will, essence and purpose.
His will and the will of the Father are One. Always was always will be.

Twisting them to drain Jesus of His Godhood is madness.

Yes, He came as a servant. Yes He humbled Himself. Yes he came to serve. Yes He will be a servant FOREVER as high priest.
But He is also King. With total authority. Which He exercised literally uncountable thousands of times in many ways.

Mat 20:28
“just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
Mar 10:45
“For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

This thread is full to the brim of absurd notions that do NOT fit the overall Biblical view of the incarnation.
If anyone does not understand what the Dramatic Theodicy is.....find out. Because anything the Trinity does in full view is for OUR learning as a display of Their heart toward Their creation.
Your first statement contradicts what Jesus said was true of Him.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Your first statement contradicts what Jesus said was true of Him.
Seems some ignore the fact that Jesus differentiated His will from that of the Father... though He did submit in all things.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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Seems some ignore the fact that Jesus differentiated His will from that of the Father... though He did submit in all things.
It's a difficult subject because Jesus submits fully to the Father, and yet, there are times when it appears He speaks as though He does things from His own authority.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Seems some ignore the fact that Jesus differentiated His will from that of the Father... though He did submit in all things.
All members of the Trinity always "submit" to one another in all matters of will.
Such as the bride price. Or the covenant made to Abraham.

Anything else or anything less is absurd and ruinous.

Again I say.......Jesus and the Father are ONE.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Your first statement contradicts what Jesus said was true of Him.
The supposed contradiction is that of your vivid imagination.

BTW.....conflict/paradox resolution occurs in higher dimensional space. You know.....where the Trinity resides?
You might want to look into that.