Did the medium bring up Samuel or a demon? 1 Sam 28

[1still_waters]

Did the medium in this portion of scripture really bring up Samuel or was it a demon?

Verse 12 seems to indicate it was really Samuel.

The one giving the description of what was seen is a Holy Spirit inspired writer.
Right?

So if the Holy Spirit inspired writer says she saw Samuel, then she saw Samuel?
Right?

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then the woman said to him, “Look, you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off the mediums and the spiritists from the land. Why then do you lay a snare for my life, to cause me to die?”
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And Saul swore to her by the Lord, saying, “As the Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.”
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”
And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.”
[SUP]12 [/SUP]When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!”
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?”
And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit[SUP][a][/SUP] ascending out of the earth.”
[SUP]14 [/SUP]So he said to her, “What is his form?”
And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it wasSamuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”
And Saul answered, “I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.”
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then Samuel said: “So why do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy? [SUP]17 [/SUP]And the Lord has done for Himself[SUP][b][/SUP] as He spoke by me. For the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.”

 

[jimmydiggs]

So there is something to Ouija boards.

 

[weakness]

Samuel...The ones Jesus spoke about casting out demons in his name yet he said depart from me, I never knew you. Seems to Indicate they had spiritual authority , yet with out a true relationship with God.

 

[1still_waters]

Apparently they were debating this for a LONG time in the Bible study room.
Verse 12 seems pretty conclusive to me, assuming the one giving the descriptions of what people do/see/etc in scripture is a Holy Spirit inspired writer.

 

[RickShafer]

It was Samuel.
A demon wouldn't have told him the truth.
Yes, we are given a stern warning not to necromance-(meaning speak to the dead).
And if anyone tries it they will talk to demons impersonating, but this was a special circumstance.
An anointed king of God's Holy people was relying on sorcery. So God used the very act to proclaim his(Saul's) judgement.
So it is no different than any other special circumstance - like hand writing on the wall, or the sun seeming to stand still, or a donkey speaking.....(or any other miracle for that matter).

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

i agree that it was samuel...everything in the text indicates that it was samuel...and there is nothing in the text to suggest anything otherwise...

all of the arguments against it being samuel that i have seen basically amount to 'i cannot accept the doctrinal ramifications of it being samuel...so it must not have been samuel'

 

[1still_waters]

i agree that it was samuel...everything in the text indicates that it was samuel...and there is nothing in the text to suggest anything otherwise...

all of the arguments against it being samuel that i have seen basically amount to 'i cannot accept the doctrinal ramifications of it being samuel...so it must not have been samuel'

I've always assumed all parts of scripture spoken from the narrator perspective are Holy Spirit inspired descriptions of events.

Now if the text said something like....."and the medium replied..I see samuel"

Then it wouldn't be as conclusive.

But this is clearly a narrator perspective and in scripture the narrator is inspired.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

I've always assumed all parts of scripture spoken from the narrator perspective are Holy Spirit inspired descriptions of events.

Now if the text said something like....."and the medium replied..I see samuel"

Then it wouldn't be as conclusive.

But this is clearly a narrator perspective and in scripture the narrator is inspired.

yes that is my same reasoning exactly...quotations may just be accurately recorded comments by people who were mistaken...but the narrative itself must be divinely inspired inerrant fact...

and the narrative says three times that the apparition really was samuel...

 

[RickShafer]

"Why have you disquieted me?"
Meaning, "why did you cause me to have to leave paradise(Abrahams Bosom) to come talk to you"?

 

[danschance]

I believe it was Samuel also. Otherwise you have to do some scripture twisting.

 

[kenisyes]

You can "see me" right next to this post. But, it's not me, it's just a picture. The text does not say Samuel recognized Saul and told her who it was. It is more likely the sudden knowledge came from a revelation from a demon, who also gave her a picture in her head to cause her to misinterpret a demon.

 

[RickShafer]

You can "see me" right next to this post. But, it's not me, it's just a picture. The text does not say Samuel recognized Saul and told her who it was. It is more likely the sudden knowledge came from a revelation from a demon, who also gave her a picture in her head to cause her to misinterpret a demon.

Wrong.
That 'demon' prophesied the truth.
Demons can't do that. (Even if they could it wouldn't be in their best interest)
Seeing as the kingdom of hell is not divided. - "If satan is fighting against himself, how will his kingdom stand?" - Jesus (Matt.12:26)
Satan's best course would have been to tell Saul to retreat or make peace. So David would be kept on the back burner and not promoted to be the Great King that he became. - Satan could see that coming, don't think he couldn't.

 

[Grandpa]

I've always taken this at face value that the lady actually brought up Samuel.

What kind of doctrinal issues are at stake if this is Samuel? I guess I don't see any...

 

[kenisyes]

Wrong.
That 'demon' prophesied the truth.
Demons can't do that. (Even if they could it wouldn't be in their best interest)
Seeing as the kingdom of hell is not divided. - "If satan is fighting against himself, how will his kingdom stand?" - Jesus (Matt.12:26)
Satan's best course would have been to tell Saul to retreat or make peace. So David would be kept on the back burner and not promoted to be the Great King that he became. - Satan could see that coming, don't think he couldn't.

The statement need not be a propehcy, but a reasonable conclusion of observation. This advice caused Saul to commit suicide. A demon would give a true statement for that purpose, so he could build fear and loss of hope. The demon would have heard Samuel's prophecy when Samuel was alive, and would have had immediate access to all the fireld positions of the armies. David would have come to power eventually anyway; everything before vs. 19 is past tense, including this.

 

[kenisyes]

I've always taken this at face value that the lady actually brought up Samuel.

What kind of doctrinal issues are at stake if this is Samuel? I guess I don't see any...

Everywhere else in the OT, death is veiwed as a form of sleep. Many hold "Abraham's bosom" to be a literary convention when Jesus uses it, not a statement of fact. Other threads have had long debates of consciousness between death and resurrection, and many Scriptures are cited there to show that those in Samuel's were/are asleep. If these are correct, the woman would either have had the power to resurrect the spirit of Samuel, or God would have had to have done so, to make the event happen. Did anything good come of it? The alternative, retreat, would only have stalled the inevitable, David was already given the Kingdom, and Saul committed suicide at the end of the battle. Why should God honor a fortune teller's talents?

 

[1still_waters]

You can "see me" right next to this post. But, it's not me, it's just a picture. The text does not say Samuel recognized Saul and told her who it was. It is more likely the sudden knowledge came from a revelation from a demon, who also gave her a picture in her head to cause her to misinterpret a demon.

Is the narrator inspired by the Holy Spirit?

 

[1still_waters]

The is all really simple.

Is the narrator telling this story inspired by the Holy Spirit?

if yes, then his account of what happened in verse 12 closes the case.


12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!”



if the narrator in the Bible isn't inspired, then we have tons of serious things to consider about all of Bible.

 

[Michael50]

It was a demon.

Let's examine a couple scriptures:

"So man lieth down and rieth not: till the heavens be no more they shall not awake nor be raised from their sleep." "His sone come to honor him and he know it not. They are brought low but he perciveth it not of them." (Job 14:12,21)

"Neither have they anymore a portion for ever in anything done under the sun." (Eccl 9:6)

"The living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing, neither have they anymore a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished.." "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave, whither thou goest." (Eccl 9:5,6,10)

Supposedly Samuel has plenty of info for Saul when a Medium raises Him....First,, we know from the above scriptures that the dead cannot communicate with the living,, that they have no knowledge of anything,, even events that are going on.

But the spirit that the Medium raised seems to have plenty of information. This spirit that Saul "percieves" to be Samuel sure seems to contradict all of the scriptures that I listed above. Not only does Samuel know what has been going on,, but he even tells Saul of his fate,, and even when: " And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me."

According to the above scriptures, there is no way that Samuel could know what had transpired since he died. He wouldn't even know how long he had been dead, as the dead know not anything.

Who here really thinks that humans that deal with the occult can raise the dead?

Satan has power to work miracles,, and he has worked powerful miracles down thru the ages through people who claim to recieve their power from the spirits of the dead. Here are some examples: Magicians of Egypt- Exodus 7:11,,Sorcerers in Daniel 2:2 And a certain damsel Acts 16:16-18.

Satan will again use sorcery in the last days, Revelation 18:23

The girl in Acts 16,, she knew of future events, because Satan was advising her. Once paul cast out the demon,, she was worthless to her owners. She could predict nothing.

Listen: Satan likes to attach nuts to those who are teaching the truth. He desires to make the truth seem evil. That is why Satan loves to associate nuts with those Teaching the Truth. Satan did it to Jesus,,, Satan did it to Paul when he had this girl follow him around and tell the Truth about what Paul was doing:

This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of Salvation." And she did this for many days. But paul greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her." And he came out that very hour.

Satan knows that if unsavory people are hanging with you agreeing with you,, it will appear that you are on the same page as the nut, and folks will dismiss you and your message. This was satans plan.

Satan has an accurate record of all who have ever lived. He knows what everybody looks like. He knows everybody voice. He even knows secret things, that only you and the deceased know.

There are mediums that are convincing people daily that their dead loved ones are alive and are able to communicate. These mediums tell all sorts of things that are true. That's how satan gains your confidence. Then he leads you in even deeper into deception. Saul wasn't led to repent by the spirit that the medium raised, instead he killed himself.


Folks,, Mediums cannot raise the dead. Nor would dead people ask the living why they are bothering them: "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" Come on folks,, really?

This has the thumbprint of Satan all over it!

If you think it really is Samuel,, then you have to dismiss all the scriptures I mentioned above about what the dead know. Which means you have a Major contradiction problem with the scripture.

 

[1still_waters]

It was a demon.

Let's examine a couple scriptures:

"So man lieth down and rieth not: till the heavens be no more they shall not awake nor be raised from their sleep." "His sone come to honor him and he know it not. They are brought low but he perciveth it not of them." (Job 14:12,21)

"Neither have they anymore a portion for ever in anything done under the sun." (Eccl 9:6)

"The living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing, neither have they anymore a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished.." "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave, whither thou goest." (Eccl 9:5,6,10)

Supposedly Samuel has plenty of info for Saul when a Medium raises Him....First,, we know from the above scriptures that the dead cannot communicate with the living,, that they have no knowledge of anything,, even events that are going on.

But the spirit that the Medium raised seems to have plenty of information. This spirit that Saul "percieves" to be Samuel sure seems to contradict all of the scriptures that I listed above. Not only does Samuel know what has been going on,, but he even tells Saul of his fate,, and even when: " And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me."

According to the above scriptures, there is no way that Samuel could know what had transpired since he died. He wouldn't even know how long he had been dead, as the dead know not anything.

Who here really thinks that humans that deal with the occult can raise the dead?

Satan has power to work miracles,, and he has worked powerful miracles down thru the ages through people who claim to recieve their power from the spirits of the dead. Here are some examples: Magicians of Egypt- Exodus 7:11,,Sorcerers in Daniel 2:2 And a certain damsel Acts 16:16-18.

Satan will again use sorcery in the last days, Revelation 18:23

The girl in Acts 16,, she knew of future events, because Satan was advising her. Once paul cast out the demon,, she was worthless to her owners. She could predict nothing.

Listen: Satan likes to attach nuts to those who are teaching the truth. He desires to make the truth seem evil. That is why Satan loves to associate nuts with those Teaching the Truth. Satan did it to Jesus,,, Satan did it to Paul when he had this girl follow him around and tell the Truth about what Paul was doing:

This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of Salvation." And she did this for many days. But paul greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her." And he came out that very hour.

Satan knows that if unsavory people are hanging with you agreeing with you,, it will appear that you are on the same page as the nut, and folks will dismiss you and your message. This was satans plan.

Satan has an accurate record of all who have ever lived. He knows what everybody looks like. He knows everybody voice. He even knows secret things, that only you and the deceased know.

There are mediums that are convincing people daily that their dead loved ones are alive and are able to communicate. These mediums tell all sorts of things that are true. That's how satan gains your confidence. Then he leads you in even deeper into deception. Saul wasn't led to repent by the spirit that the medium raised, instead he killed himself.


Folks,, Mediums cannot raise the dead. Nor would dead people ask the living why they are bothering them: "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" Come on folks,, really?

This has the thumbprint of Satan all over it!

If you think it really is Samuel,, then you have to dismiss all the scriptures I mentioned above about what the dead know. Which means you have a Major contradiction problem with the scripture.

Is the narrator inspired by the Holy Spirit?

 

[1still_waters]

What's the method behind my madness of asking if the narrator is inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Well it's clear that everything said from a first person account in the Bible isn't true. Job's friends said stuff that isn't true. As did the Devil and so on. So if all we had in this story was the medium's first person explanation of what she saw, then it could be argued that she had a wrong perception and account.

BUT we have the narrator telling us what she saw.
This isn't just a first person "character" description.
Soooo...if it's the narrator, and the narrator is usually inspired, then it follows that when he says she saw Samuel, she actually saw Samuel.