Discussing the Garden of eden event

[eternally-gratefull]

How well do you know God or understand His actions?
Habakkuk pleads with God to save Judah from their wickedness, and God sends the Babylonians as judgement.

And thats evil? Maybe in mans faulty mind, But is it truly evil?

This is not nice, or friendly. In the soup of degredation and sin that we humans live in, anything that happens you could argue is just. Many christians would say, but what about the innocent children, the people who do not choose a way of life but are born into it. This is where communities have a community responsibility. It is expressed in the law as God not visiting judgment for sin to the 3rd generation.

Take David, a righteous king who also murdered Uriah the Hittite. David also snuk out and wipped out philistine villages when he was faking fighting for the philistines.

So I am saying to you God is pure, holy and good, but much of how this world is made and works causes us great confusion and doubt.

Bring this personal to home, pancriatic cancer, very painful, very difficult to treat. I know of a few good christian people who have gone through this, and it is very hard. It would be easy to say this pain should not happen because this burden could easily be lifted by God. Now we say these ideas, but we have no clue how true or otherwise this idea is.

umm.. All of this is negated by the fact, that evil is sin, It does not matter what man thinks, mans thinking is flawed to begin with, Thats why we were never made to take care of ourselves, but to recieve Gods love and attention and care.

if God did evil, he sinned, if he sinned, He can not send satan to hell because satan sinned also. And his whole plan to stop rebellion of his creation has failed miserably.

The problem is if you do one action in the world which is related to action and reaction, you have to be consistent throughout creation. Only one place where this consistency will be obvious, judgement day. Before that there is only gifts of grace, we do not earn, but the Lord chooses to provide.

Why do I say all this? Because too many people want to box up ideas, and not get personal.

God in a sense in the garden was hiding something from Adam, knowledge, but with that knowledge came death.
I trust God with my whole life, but also I know He is just, holy and completely other, so I need to learn and follow Jesus to make sense of it all.

You appear to me to be fixated on ideas that blind you from the obvious.

God did not hide anything from adam, Your falling right into satans trap, that in fact was the very Lie Satan told eve which convinced her to eat of the tree. Was it not God who said she is the one who was deceived "by the lie"

Adam did not need to know evil to know how to survive or realise God took care of him.

 

[PeterJens]

God did not hide anything from adam, Your falling right into satans trap

Interesting suggestion. How well can you think, deal with ideas. You cannot give someone understanding and then ask do you understand, because ofcourse they do. Equally you cannot ask someone to understand something they have no ability to comprehend.

You today understand ideas, abstraction, the ability to look outside yourself and see yourself doing things. It is what makes us human, gives us identity. It is why we wear cloths because we wish to convey different intentions and ideas by what we wear, so we have to understand this for it to work. Adam did not possess this understanding. He did not understand one action can be good and another evil. So in a sense God did not hide this from him, as if talking about it would convey understanding, the picture is Adam did not understand this.

Now God made it plain. Do not eat from this tree, or you will die. God did not say when he would die or how, but he did say he would die. God did not say you will die spiritually but the consequences physically will take time to work out, but that is what he meant.

Satans was right to say you will not certainly die, physically, as the story explains. Knowledge in and of itself is not deadly, as God has the knowledge and is eternal. God admits if Adam eats of the tree of life he will be physically eternal.

But without communion with the Lord, without love working in our hearts, we shall surely be spiritually dead.

So Satan was wrong, but not in the obvious way. Without the right heart, Adam independent from God would never survive.
So God was talking about spiritual death not physical death.

Satans argument with God is what makes God so good he can rule with the focus on his nature and his perfection. The Lord who is unbelievably humble turns round and shows creation Jesus.

The Lord did not say Satan lied, Satan deceived Eve by suggesting God had other motives than the obvious warning, and there were other possible outcomes. This was all true, God did have other motivations, though the core warning was still 100% correct. The lie was to question do you trust God, he is not worthy of your trust. Eve could have talked with the Lord about the tree and why it was there, rather than take the independent route. The problem with broken trust is how do you restore it.

So I am not falling into Satans trap. Rather I am explaining Satans argument and its failure.

There are many professing christians who think the fall is just rebellion, and Adam was like us in understanding before eating the fruit. If this was true, there would be no point in the fruit. So you cannot turn the clock back.

But equally God intended us to be His children so there probably was no other way to get an independent people who freely bowed the knee, other than like this.

Now please tell me what I have got wrong. I am happy to learn from you, if you can put the argument together.
I doubt this though as you seem to be saying things that are just not there in the text.

 

[Tintin]

I don't know how you can get yourself so confused over such a simple story. It's baffling, truly baffling.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't know how you can get yourself so confused over such a simple story. It's baffling, truly baffling.

want to read into it things which are not there.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Interesting suggestion. How well can you think, deal with ideas. You cannot give someone understanding and then ask do you understand, because ofcourse they do. Equally you cannot ask someone to understand something they have no ability to comprehend.

You today understand ideas, abstraction, the ability to look outside yourself and see yourself doing things. It is what makes us human, gives us identity. It is why we wear cloths because we wish to convey different intentions and ideas by what we wear, so we have to understand this for it to work. Adam did not possess this understanding. He did not understand one action can be good and another evil. So in a sense God did not hide this from him, as if talking about it would convey understanding, the picture is Adam did not understand this.

Now God made it plain. Do not eat from this tree, or you will die. God did not say when he would die or how, but he did say he would die. God did not say you will die spiritually but the consequences physically will take time to work out, but that is what he meant.

Satans was right to say you will not certainly die, physically, as the story explains. Knowledge in and of itself is not deadly, as God has the knowledge and is eternal. God admits if Adam eats of the tree of life he will be physically eternal.

But without communion with the Lord, without love working in our hearts, we shall surely be spiritually dead.

So Satan was wrong, but not in the obvious way. Without the right heart, Adam independent from God would never survive.
So God was talking about spiritual death not physical death.

Satans argument with God is what makes God so good he can rule with the focus on his nature and his perfection. The Lord who is unbelievably humble turns round and shows creation Jesus.

The Lord did not say Satan lied, Satan deceived Eve by suggesting God had other motives than the obvious warning, and there were other possible outcomes. This was all true, God did have other motivations, though the core warning was still 100% correct. The lie was to question do you trust God, he is not worthy of your trust. Eve could have talked with the Lord about the tree and why it was there, rather than take the independent route. The problem with broken trust is how do you restore it.

So I am not falling into Satans trap. Rather I am explaining Satans argument and its failure.

There are many professing christians who think the fall is just rebellion, and Adam was like us in understanding before eating the fruit. If this was true, there would be no point in the fruit. So you cannot turn the clock back.

But equally God intended us to be His children so there probably was no other way to get an independent people who freely bowed the knee, other than like this.

Now please tell me what I have got wrong. I am happy to learn from you, if you can put the argument together.
I doubt this though as you seem to be saying things that are just not there in the text.

I doubt there is any real hope of me helping you understanding that text. you read way to much into it things which are not there. And you have God doing evil.

Thats all I need to know.

 

[PeterJens]

I don't know how you can get yourself so confused over such a simple story. It's baffling, truly baffling.

What you maybe have not grasped the story of Adam and Eve is not simple.
Theologians has said death came into the world at the fall, but this is clearly not true. Cellular death, reproduction, birth are all part of life itself, at its core. You cannot have creation without understanding this is part of Gods gift.

A talking snake, a man speaking face to face with a holy God, is actually very different from Moses and the burning bush, or God being so holy you die if you approach Him in the holy of holies.

Why did not God make it up with Adam, and things go on there way in communion?
Something fundamental had changed that could not be easily fixed. But we do not know how to describe this.
Linked with this is the idea of eternal punishment for sin, torture.

The garden of Eden reads to me like a divorce or temporary separation, with the hope of things working back again.
I do not think Adam and Eve will be in heaven, or that they repented. Maybe they did, it is not recorded.

So the truth is this is not simple or understood.

 

[PeterJens]

I doubt there is any real hope of me helping you understanding that text. you read way to much into it things which are not there. And you have God doing evil.

Thats all I need to know.

Lol. I do not have God doing evil, I have God doing what he knows to be right, but we do not understand.

Equally you have no answer to the questions or points, which is actually where you are spiritually so have nothing more to offer. Well God bless you, I am just making some obvious points.

Faith is not about what we want things to say or be, but what they actually are.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Lol. I do not have God doing evil, I have God doing what he knows to be right, but we do not understand.

You said he did evil, now your backtracking.. Make up your mind.

I have god doing no evil. I have him in control and allowing things to happen.

Equally you have no answer to the questions or points, which is actually where you are spiritually so have nothing more to offer. Well God bless you, I am just making some obvious points.

Faith is not about what we want things to say or be, but what they actually are.

Well. They are certainly not as you say they are. But if you want to think they are, thats perfectly fine. I wont hold it against you.

 

[PeterJens]

A point to those who wonder why Adam and Eve matter, is because they are the start of the failure in our relationship with God which we are born into.

The whole of the gospel hangs on the nature of this failure and what Jesus is putting right. If our natures are not flawed, unredeemable, then Jesus is not needed, self righteousness can work. If Adam could just make it up with God, there is no inheritence of our fallen state.

Satan and his argument with the Lord is also important. In Job, we have him discussing with God the nature of praise and righteousness. In the temptation of Jesus we have authority, power, food, worship all questioned.

So the story is part of the whole and needs to be explained in that context. It is from this we also define what eternal life really is, and how we enter the Kingdom of heaven here on earth by being born again.

So do not treat this story lightly, but ponder it well.

 

[PeterJens]

You said he did evil, now your backtracking.. Make up your mind.

I have god doing no evil. I have him in control and allowing things to happen.

Well. They are certainly not as you say they are. But if you want to think they are, thats perfectly fine. I wont hold it against you.

The problem you have is you want to discredit me, but it does not work. The word speaks.
All I am doing is exploring its meaning. You are saying I got it wrong, but not saying where.

Saying God says satan lied is simply not true. Read the text.
Satan says "You will not certainly die" is different from "You will die".

If a doctor came and said to you "You will not certainly die" you expect a measure of how likely it is.
It always bothered me the phrase "They have become like us" because that is admitting the argument put forward by Satan as the reason for the warning was distrust and holding something back was partly correct.

This is why the story for me is worthy of reworking and thinking through. But obviously not for you.
I now have a better insight, so thank you for your time.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The problem you have is you want to discredit me, but it does not work. The word speaks.
All I am doing is exploring its meaning. You are saying I got it wrong, but not saying where.

Dude stop puffing yourself up and thinking so highly of yourself. I could care less what you think, and have no need or desire to discredit anyone. Believe it or not. What people believe has absolutely no bearing on my faith in Christ.

Saying God says satan lied is simply not true. Read the text.
Satan says "You will not certainly die" is different from "You will die".

Did I say that was the lie? Maybe you should read what I say instead of assuming.

If a doctor came and said to you "You will not certainly die" you expect a measure of how likely it is.
It always bothered me the phrase "They have become like us" because that is admitting the argument put forward by Satan as the reason for the warning was distrust and holding something back was partly correct.

This is why the story for me is worthy of reworking and thinking through. But obviously not for you.
I now have a better insight, so thank you for your time.

lol. I have better insite too. Your a know it all who thinks highly of himself and is not willing to listen to what anyone is saying.

Good day.

 

[PeterJens]

Did I say that was the lie? Maybe you should read what I say instead of assuming.

This is what your wrote

Was it not God who said she is the one who was deceived "by the lie"

You say I said God did evil. Please show me. What I said was people think, interpret God did evil.
The problem with saying someone is changing their position is you could have miss-understood or more truthfully intentionally miss-understood.

I am here because I am interested in discussing ideas insights. If you cannot answer my points, I am not puffing myself up, or saying anything than the points. It is a weak argument to say I am full of pride. But you are such a joker.

You obviously do not like the conclusions I am coming to, but the answer is to come with a better narrative, not attack the speaker.

A small side point that interests me is the emphasis on nakedness and shame. It is consistent in Genesis that nakedness is great dishonour, and it starts in the garden of Eden.

I have simply linked this idea to self awareness which appears to be missing with Adam.

But maybe this is just another point "I am reading in" which is just there. I wonder how much you actually see....lol

 

[PeterJens]

Good day.

By the way I wish the Lord blesses you greatly and you also have a good day, praise the Lord.

 

[PeterJens]

To summarise

1) Adam & Eve were not self aware like we are. They held no shame in nakedness and did not differentiate between good and evil.
2) Satans argument was they would not certainly die, implying they might live. He undermined trust in God suggesting the reason for the warning was you would become like God, knowing good and evil.
3) Spiritual death, separation from God was the result of disobedience, but physical eternal life was possible through eating of the tree of life.
4) Trust was broken, but there was no way to re-establish it. Adam and Eve where banished from the garden.
Trust was a continuing problem, even understanding. Able was accepted Cain rejected.

 

[pottersclay]

Well the first prophecy was death not amenity. Imo Satan's whole strategy is to prove God a liar. I don't know about shutting up Satan or anything like that he is alive and well on planet earth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is what your wrote

Was it not God who said she is the one who was deceived "by the lie"

See how deceptive you are.

I said the "lie" you tried to share was not the "lie" I was talking about.

I never claimed God never said Satan lied.

You say I said God did evil. Please show me. What I said was people think, interpret God did evil.

So now you will admit it Thank you.

The problem with saying someone is changing their position is you could have miss-understood or more truthfully intentionally miss-understood.

I asked you numerous times, and you just kept repeating of all the things God did which people could say was evil. How else was I to interpret that

I am here because I am interested in discussing ideas insights. If you cannot answer my points, I am not puffing myself up, or saying anything than the points. It is a weak argument to say I am full of pride. But you are such a joker.

Rolls eyes. this is getting old

You obviously do not like the conclusions I am coming to, but the answer is to come with a better narrative, not attack the speaker.

Stop being so pridefull in your responses then. You brought it on yourself.

A small side point that interests me is the emphasis on nakedness and shame. It is consistent in Genesis that nakedness is great dishonour, and it starts in the garden of Eden.

I have simply linked this idea to self awareness which appears to be missing with Adam.

But maybe this is just another point "I am reading in" which is just there. I wonder how much you actually see....lol

Why did Adam need to be self aware? Everything he needed was given to him By God. He did not need a thing, so he did not need to think of his own being,

It was sin which forced him to think of his own needs, Because the relationship between him and God was broken. Not only did adam become self aware (to his own detriment) but God saw his sin (nakendess) and had to cover it.

The covering was a type of atonement, Adam tried to cover his own nakedness, God said it is not good enough. I have to cover you.

We can not cover our own sins, God must, with blood. His own!

 

[Tintin]

This thread has begun to have the stench of Progressive Christianity, which isn't Christianity at all.

 

[Dan58]

Saying God says satan lied is simply not true. Read the text.
Satan says "You will not certainly die" is different from "You will die".

God did not have to say that Satan lied, it was obvious. "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die" (Genesis 3:4) Well, the woman is dead, so I'd say telling her that she would not die was a flat-out lie. And I believe God through Christ did say that Satan lied; "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it" (John 8:44). Deception is a lie, and from the beginning Satan lied. God said that A&E would surely die and the serpent said they would not surely die, one was telling the truth and the other contradicted the truth (lied).

 

[onlinebuddy]

A point - Was it sinful to eat of the tree of Knowledge?

If the ultimate definition of sin is things that lead to death, then it was sinful, but in one sense it has led to Jesus and life.

Sin sometimes can be seen from a different perspective as a good act.
We go to war, we kill, we take from people because they owe others, but we call this righteous behaviour and good, yet done unjustly, is evil and sin.

And we cant say that we are not in the process of being in the likeness of God, because we have reached the first step of being in the likeness...i.e knowing what is good and evil

PeterJens,
Are you saying that if sin leads us to something good, then that particular sinful act was good?
Are you saying that the sin of Adam, has led us to Jesus and life?
Are you saying that war(killing), if done with the right intentions, is righteous behaviour and good?
Are you saying that sin can be said to be good or bad depending on OUR perspective?

Sanashankar,
Are you saying that God required Adam to sin(disobey God's instruction), in order to make him(Adam) in God's likeness?
Is sin the first step towards becoming the likeness of God?

Or am I reading it wrong? (I have tried to read all posts, but may have missed some)

 

[PeterJens]

PeterJens,
Are you saying that if sin leads us to something good, then that particular sinful act was good?

Sin is sin. Let us think through the prodigal son parable. The son who wants to buy friends, to spend his inheritence and live the high life, and yet finally when all is gone and all his bought friends have left, he returns home, was it good that he walked this path?

The father would say if he had kept the son, the son would have blamed the father for stopping him living the life that would give him life and reality. The son had to learn the real life lesson that it was all empty for himself.

What God is saying to us, is He does not hold it against us, but is willing to reach out and give us life, despite our distrust and rebellion. I wonder if this situation was inevitable, because it appears to give free will and knowledge of good and evil, you then have to learn the power of victory over evil is through love and trust of the Lord. I wonder if the whole problem has to go this path because it would have not been possible to have people born into fellowship with the Lord because that would not have enabled people to choose, to find the light.

Jesus confirmed this idea by calling John the Baptist the lowest in the kingdom, because he was born into this fellowship.

The downside of the choice is without the Lord nothing works, and people fall apart, like the husk around the seed without the seed at its core.

What I am saying is God planted a tree and gave Adam and Eve the ability and access to eat from this tree. He told them if they eat of this tree they would die. He told them they should not eat from this tree.

If God wanted them to never eat of the tree, he would not have put it in the garden. The question was would Adam trust God and obey, or listen to the lie which said God was hiding something from him.

Adam sinned, he chose death and knowledge over trust and obedience. Would the other option have been taken? God does not say, He just describes what happened.