Dispensationalism...

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Everlasting-Grace

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Since there are no more Jews in covenant with God, there cannot be its counterpart (Gentiles). This has been a dead issue for 2,000 years since the Lord died on the cross, rose again, ascended to the throne, and sent the Holy Spirit. There is absolutely no need for you to continue to push something that is dead when the Holy Spirit is the promise to everyone who believes in the Lord.

Are you sure you are a believer who has the Spirit of God as a downpayment of your salvation? (Eph 1:13-14).

Ephesians 2:18-22 (LSB) "For through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and are of God’s household,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, is growing into a holy sanctuary in the Lord,
22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit."
No more jews in covenant with God?

My friend. Please start to read the word of God.

For salvation. There is no jew and gentile

As for Gods elect or chosen nation. Paul makes it very clear in romans 11 God is not done with them. They are still beloved according to the election. Because the gifts of God are irrevocable

The churhc has not replaced Israel according to the land promise given to them in Genesis
 

Everlasting-Grace

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God's promises were fulfilled through Jesus Christ on the cross. Stop looking to the past for answers. Jesus is God's final word for all nations, including your pet, Israel.
Gods promise of salvation were fulfilled AMEN

Gods promise of land and peace in that land for Israel can not be fulfilled by CHrist.

Once again, your trying to replace land promise with salvation promises. They are seperate.
 

Everlasting-Grace

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This is completely false. The fulness of the Gentiles applies to the Church, which is clear from the context in Romans 11. When the requisite number of Gentiles has been gathered into the Church, it will be raptured. This will be long before Christ returns to destroy all the kingdoms of the world and establish the Kingdom of God in earth (Dan 7).
This is false.

There will be gentiles added to Gods family after the so called rapture..

There were gentiles added to the church (Gods assembly) before Christ. They have been being added sine adam and Eve
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Well sister I'm just gonna be as honest as I can here. Scofield, Smofield, dispys, tulips, all this meant little or nothing to me before I came to CC. I have I guess a working knowledge of some of it now. But we don't have to turn to anyones opinion on the subject. We know from the Word that 1. covenants were made by dividing animals 2. both parties would pass between the animals 3.a covenant would be made. In the case of Abe we know 1. the animals were halved 2. God put Abe into a deep sleep. 3. God passed through the halved animals alone making it an unconditional covenant that God promised to uphold. We don't even have to ask old Smofield his opinion, it's right there in black and white. :)
Amen

thats the problem, everyone wants to put people under an “ism” and not just read the word of God.

You can;t break ISMs. Because your told and taught that “ism” is in error and to stay away from it.. so you attack it.

sadly thats what we get alot of in christian chat rooms..
 

Ethan1942

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Jul 23, 2022
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You nee

you need to get out of your books ... ya think Peter and Paul had piles of books and dictionaries?

We don't give a tinker's cuss if you call them dispensations or administrations or stewardships or anything else. What is plain is that God's grace was dispensed differently to different people at different times. YOU are not required to obey the law of Moses as the Jews were in order to receive God's blessing. If you think so you are in trouble.

We will says Paul "be caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds" put that in your theological test tube.

Peter doesn't talk about being caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds, he doesn't talk about the creation being set FREE from it's bondage to decay. Peter talks about loud bangs and fervent heat to the melting away of the elements.

All that will come to pass but before then there will be the resurrection of the just and the 1, 000 year reign. Only Paul understood that.

Poor ol' Pete scratched his head and got out his commentaries and dictionaries and said "some things our beloved Paul says are hard to be understood"
Paul speaking of books:
"The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments." (2Tim 4:13, KJV)
 

Ethan1942

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I do not find it so important to be premil, amil or postmil. I just wish to be ready on that day. But I do care when I see false prophets twisting Scripture to support their already held, man-made conception of eschatology. So, I offer the following on Matthew 24.

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" (Matt 24:3, KJV)

The phrase "the end of the world" is found 7 times in the KJV. In Ps 19:4 & Isa 62:11 it has the meaning of "the ends of the earth", not a future event. In Heb 9:26 it refers to the death of Christ on the cross. The phrase is used 4 times in Matthew and in 13:39, 49; 28:20 it is clearly the end of time. In Matt 24:3 the phrase is used but omitted in the Mark and Luke parallels. It seems safe to understand Matt 24:3 as meaning the end of time also. But, since the disciples often misunderstood the words of Jesus, what did the disciples think? Did they identify the destruction of the temple complex with the end of time, as the phrase is used elsewhere in Matthew? The timing and destruction of the temple is in all 3 synoptic gospels and "the end of the world" in only Matthew. It appears the emphasis is on the temple destruction and timing, not on "the end of the world", which timing is unknown.

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (Matt 24:14, KJV)

This sign was completed in the time of the Apostle Paul, Col. 1:23 & Rom. 1:8. It is clear language!

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." (Matt 24:34, KJV)

The phrase "this generation" is used in 18 other verses and in every one it means the present generation, those being spoken to. It is absurd to make this one time in Mt. 24:34 mean a generation 2000 years in the future. The phrase referring to a generation distant is, "that generation" and that phrase is found in 3 verses: Ex. 1:6; Judg 2:10 & Heb 3:10. To make Mt. 24:34 mean a generation far distant in time is to ignore the plain grammar and context.

What about that language in Matt 24:29-31? Is it to be taken as literal? The phrasing is similar to the apocalyptic language of the OT where it depicts great judgments:

God in the clouds: Isa 19:1; Nah 1:3; Psa 104:3
Sky, sun, moon, stars: Isa 13:1, 10, 19, 20; 34:4, 5; Eze 32:2, 7, 8
Hail, fire, brimestone: Ex 9:18; Psa 18:12 13; Isa 28:1, 2
Earthquakes, heaven: 2 Sam 22:1, 7-16
Smoke forever: Isa 34:5, 10
Water into blood: Ex 4:9; 7:17
Darkness: E 10:21; Deut. 4:11

If one still wishes to be more literal, read the account of the destruction of Jerusalem in great detail:
http://www.josephus.org/warChronologyIntro.htm

http://www.josephus.org/causeofDestruct.htm#omens

I know from Scripture what Jesus meant by "this generation" in Matt. 24:34, the destruction of the temple. But what about the disciple's question about "the end of the world"?

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left." (Matt 24:36-41, KJV)
 

Ethan1942

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You are a purveyor of half truths

God told the Jews He would chuck them off the land and He did so
He told them He would bring them back in the latter days and He will ... He is already doing so.
The latter days, or last days? Read about when this took place, according to Scripture, not silly footnotes in a study Bible.

"And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven... But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: (Acts 2:5, 16-17, KJV

"Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed." (Acts 3:24-25, KJV)
 

Beckie

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Liberal media of today twisting words must have learned from the dispensationalist .
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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I do not find it so important to be premil, amil or postmil. I just wish to be ready on that day. But I do care when I see false prophets twisting Scripture to support their already held, man-made conception of eschatology. So, I offer the following on Matthew 24.

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" (Matt 24:3, KJV)
If we do not get this right. We will not be able to interpret the word

You claim the last question is the end of the world. In the greek, the world is Cosmos as in John 3, For God so loved the world). The word earth is Ge, as we find in Matt 5 the meek shall inherit the earth.

The word used here is Aion or age. When is the end of the age would be the correct translation.
changing this one word brings is to a completely different meaning. One says the end of time, the other says the end of the age.
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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Liberal media of today twisting words must have learned from the dispensationalist .
I guess it is good you have me on ignore. Because you would not like what I have to say

You are proud. You have no desire to discuss what the word actually says, Yu attack and belittle those who do not agree with you (that is why you have me on ignore. I would not let you do this, I held you accountable)

This same strawman could be used against you It does nto help in the discussion. And it is arrogant and self righteous

I pray someone copies and pastes what I said so you can see it
 

Evmur

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I do not find it so important to be premil, amil or postmil. I just wish to be ready on that day. But I do care when I see false prophets twisting Scripture to support their already held, man-made conception of eschatology. So, I offer the following on Matthew 24.

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" (Matt 24:3, KJV)

The phrase "the end of the world" is found 7 times in the KJV. In Ps 19:4 & Isa 62:11 it has the meaning of "the ends of the earth", not a future event. In Heb 9:26 it refers to the death of Christ on the cross. The phrase is used 4 times in Matthew and in 13:39, 49; 28:20 it is clearly the end of time. In Matt 24:3 the phrase is used but omitted in the Mark and Luke parallels. It seems safe to understand Matt 24:3 as meaning the end of time also. But, since the disciples often misunderstood the words of Jesus, what did the disciples think? Did they identify the destruction of the temple complex with the end of time, as the phrase is used elsewhere in Matthew? The timing and destruction of the temple is in all 3 synoptic gospels and "the end of the world" in only Matthew. It appears the emphasis is on the temple destruction and timing, not on "the end of the world", which timing is unknown.

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (Matt 24:14, KJV)

This sign was completed in the time of the Apostle Paul, Col. 1:23 & Rom. 1:8. It is clear language!

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." (Matt 24:34, KJV)

The phrase "this generation" is used in 18 other verses and in every one it means the present generation, those being spoken to. It is absurd to make this one time in Mt. 24:34 mean a generation 2000 years in the future. The phrase referring to a generation distant is, "that generation" and that phrase is found in 3 verses: Ex. 1:6; Judg 2:10 & Heb 3:10. To make Mt. 24:34 mean a generation far distant in time is to ignore the plain grammar and context.

What about that language in Matt 24:29-31? Is it to be taken as literal? The phrasing is similar to the apocalyptic language of the OT where it depicts great judgments:

God in the clouds: Isa 19:1; Nah 1:3; Psa 104:3
Sky, sun, moon, stars: Isa 13:1, 10, 19, 20; 34:4, 5; Eze 32:2, 7, 8
Hail, fire, brimestone: Ex 9:18; Psa 18:12 13; Isa 28:1, 2
Earthquakes, heaven: 2 Sam 22:1, 7-16
Smoke forever: Isa 34:5, 10
Water into blood: Ex 4:9; 7:17
Darkness: E 10:21; Deut. 4:11

If one still wishes to be more literal, read the account of the destruction of Jerusalem in great detail:
http://www.josephus.org/warChronologyIntro.htm

http://www.josephus.org/causeofDestruct.htm#omens

I know from Scripture what Jesus meant by "this generation" in Matt. 24:34, the destruction of the temple. But what about the disciple's question about "the end of the world"?

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left." (Matt 24:36-41, KJV)
The good news of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations

But you folks foolishly say their will not be any kingdom

Don't be silly this message was not preached to the Chinese or to the Red Indians ... it did not even reach merrie England in Paul's day. Don't be silly. The generation which shall see the gospel preached to every nation is the generation which will not pass away till all things come to pass.
 

Ethan1942

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The good news of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations

But you folks foolishly say their will not be any kingdom

Don't be silly this message was not preached to the Chinese or to the Red Indians ... it did not even reach merrie England in Paul's day. Don't be silly. The generation which shall see the gospel preached to every nation is the generation which will not pass away till all things come to pass.
What the NT "world" meant in Matt. 24:14 and in Rom 1:8 are both referring to the then known world. Rom. 1:8 even reads "whole world", the total. That is the Roman Empire to the people at that time. Col. 1:23 reads "preached to every creature which is under heaven", so that has to be the known world, the Roman Empire. The world in Matt 24:14 certainly means the same as in Rom. 1:8.
 

Ethan1942

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Are Dispensationalists Judaizers? I do believe they come close to that.

Read the article in the Jewish Magazine:
http://www.jewishmag.com/157mag/israel_returns_to_promised_land/israel_returns_to_promised_land.htm

The last paragraph of that article reads:

"The Twelve Israelite Tribes will have become one People again, the Kingdom of priests, the light to the World. Through this unified and redeemed nation of Israel all the Divine Blessings of the Bible will come to pass into this world. It will be their Divinely ordained task and destiny to teach and guide the nations to worship one God of the Universe, God of Israel, by demonstrating righteousness, holiness, kindness and God’s love to all inhabitants of the earth in order to merit together the Messianic Era and life in the World to Come."

The New Testament tells us otherwise:

"Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow." (1Pet 1:10-11, KJV)

Read the OT prophecies applied to the New Covenant believers, the true Israel of God:

Joel 2:28 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Acts 2:16, 17
2 Sam 7:12, Psa 132:11 >>>>>> Acts 2:30, 31
Zech 12:9, 10 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> John 19:36, 37
Amos 9:11, 12 >>>>>>>>>>>>> Acts 15:13-16
Jer. 31:31, 33 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Heb 8:1, 4, 6-8
Mal 4:5, 6 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Luke 1:17; Matt 11:13, 14

I find nothing anywhere in the New Testament that indicates Jews return to Palestine again, after the 1st century.
 

Beckie

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And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Scofield did an excellent job in his Scofield Reference Bible (the original edition) and it would do all Christians much good to delve into this Bible. One does not have to agree with all his conclusion, but I would say that about 98% of his comments are sound and biblical.

There are a huge number of Scofield bashers because they hate Dispensationalism. But the fact of the matter is that it is a reasonable and sound method of interpretation, since the plain literal meaning of Scripture is always there (unless metaphors are evident). Some even love to slander Darby, Scofield, Ryrie, Walvoord, etc. because ad hominem attacks are a substitute to sound interpretation.

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture (which was regarded as imminent by the apostolic churches) was first revealed by Christ in John 14:1-3. Darby etc simply dug a little deeper and discovered that this is true.
Have you bothered to read where the differences between what Scofield wrote and the Scriptures are posted .

I have not bashed Scofield i have posted his words . I learned dispensationalism from a Scofield Bible . Original edition, my brother has Grandpa's 1909. The one dad preached from was 1917. He then got a 1967 which i now have.

Scofield is 98% ? .. God is never 2% wrong
 

Ethan1942

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If we do not get this right. We will not be able to interpret the word

You claim the last question is the end of the world. In the greek, the world is Cosmos as in John 3, For God so loved the world). The word earth is Ge, as we find in Matt 5 the meek shall inherit the earth.

The word used here is Aion or age. When is the end of the age would be the correct translation.
changing this one word brings is to a completely different meaning. One says the end of time, the other says the end of the age.
You are the one needing to get things right. The "world" under discussion in Matthew in Strong's is: "G165 αἰών aion (ai-ōn') n." It is not cosmos. I was not discussing John 3:16.

The argument about "the end of the world" holds true whether it is translated "age" or "world" -

and the enemy who sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. (Matt 13:39, RSV) the 2nd coming

So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous, (Matt 13:49, RSV) the 2nd coming

As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?” (Matt 24:3, RSV) 2nd coming

teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” (Matt 28:20, RSV) 2nd coming

for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. (Heb 9:26, RSV)

The translation "the end of the world" and "the end of the age" are the same. In Matt 13:39, 49; 24:3; 28:20 all refer to the end of time.

If you think of "age" in NT context it would be like saying the end of the "gospel dispensation" which would be the end of the world.
 

Ethan1942

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A CHALLENGE FOR THE DISPENSATIONALISTS

"Beloved, while I was giving all diligence to write unto you of our common salvation, I was constrained to write unto you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered unto the saints." (Jude 1:3, ASV)

I cannot find in the commentaries of the church, or writings of known Bible scholars of the past, earlier than 1800 who found a gap of 2500+ years between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel 9:24. Can a dispensationalist give a reference for that in the history of the church? What common sense reason can be had to 'read into' the 70 weeks such a gap? It MUST be read into it!

I've not found the idea that Ezekiel 40-48 represents a reconstituted Israel on the land in Palestine with sacrifices and the literal temple. Can anyone show me where that was taught prior to the 19th century?

Dispensationalism began in the 1800s but only started to become more widespread after 1900 with the Scofield Reference Bible as one of the main culprits.

The body of Christ found it necessary to form the ecumenical creeds in the early history of the church to have a systematic presentation of the nature of God and Jesus Christ to combat the heresies. Martin Luther began the Protestant Reformation where the Reformers worked to take the church back to biblical teachings as taught in the Bible and were found in the body of Christ through the centuries.

I can, find before the 1800s, many men of God believed that before the end of time, a great mass of Jews would repent and come into the church, but I know of none that taught a new Jewish Empire was to be rebuilt around Jerusalem. Can anyone give me a reference where that was taught in the church before the 19th century?

But what have we now, that began developing in the 19th century?

Christian Science (which is neither Christian nor science)
Mormons
Jehovah's Witnesses
Seventh Day Adventists
Charles G. Finney and his 'new measures' - https://www.monergism.com/disturbing-legacy-charles-finney
Dispensationalists
other lesser known groups
 
Jan 14, 2021
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We do not believe Jews are saved aprt from repentance and belief in Christ just like we are.
If Jews repent and believe in Christ, in your opinion do they become Christian?

You'll never answer that question because you know it would reveal too much about your true beliefs.
 

Beckie

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Feb 15, 2022
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The good news of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations

But you folks foolishly say their will not be any kingdom

Don't be silly this message was not preached to the Chinese or to the Red Indians ... it did not even reach merrie England in Paul's day. Don't be silly. The generation which shall see the gospel preached to every nation is the generation which will not pass away till all things come to pass.
Yet God tells us this
Rom_1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Rom_10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
Col 1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Jesus said His kingdom was not of this world dispensationalist want His kingdom to be of this world. The Scriptures say
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Some folks are looking for signs and wonders.