Division of SOUL and SPIRIT, Heb 4:12

[Musicus]

Back in 2001-3 I was in a recovery program that was really a 'Bible boot camp' geared towards sin addiction recovery. Early in the program I was bothered by Hebrews 4:12

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." KJV

I thought 'How do I know my soul from my spirit?' I became a Christian at Sunday School when I was 6, reconfirmed this and was baptized when I was 20, but I had never thought over this scripture. I'm not really bothered about it anymore because I drove everyone around me crazy for 2 months asking about it, and I more or less found answers that satisfied me at the time. But now my curiosity is stirred again, because the question came up recently in a Bible study and we all just kinda stared at each other since it was off-topic, and we decided to hold the question for another night. I got myself volunteered to put together a study on it, and I figure some outside input might help us.


This is what I'm starting with:


1. I am spirit, created in God's image, and God is spirit.


2. I possess a soul. I haven't found scripture yet showing where and when people were given souls, but I know it can be lost. "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" Matthew 16:26 KJV


3. I know the Word can separate my soul from my spirit.


btw we use mainly NKJV and NIV study bibles, but not exclusively.
I'm aware there are two other threads addressing this, http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/82189-body-spirit-soul-question-spirit.html, and http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/154201-what-spirit.html, (and maybe more) but they don't really go far enough for what I'm looking for, so I'm hoping a new thread will generate a stronger conversation with more scripture references.

Peace!

 

[beastslayer1970]

Back in 2001-3 I was in a recovery program that was really a 'Bible boot camp' geared towards sin addiction recovery. Early in the program I was bothered by Hebrews 4:12

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." KJV

I thought 'How do I know my soul from my spirit?' I became a Christian at Sunday School when I was 6, reconfirmed this and was baptized when I was 20, but I had never thought over this scripture. I'm not really bothered about it anymore because I drove everyone around me crazy for 2 months asking about it, and I more or less found answers that satisfied me at the time. But now my curiosity is stirred again, because the question came up recently in a Bible study and we all just kinda stared at each other since it was off-topic, and we decided to hold the question for another night. I got myself volunteered to put together a study on it, and I figure some outside input might help us.


This is what I'm starting with:


1. I am spirit, created in God's image, and God is spirit.


2. I possess a soul. I haven't found scripture yet showing where and when people were given souls, but I know it can be lost. "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" Matthew 16:26 KJV


3. I know the Word can separate my soul from my spirit.


btw we use mainly NKJV and NIV study bibles, but not exclusively.
I'm aware there are two other threads addressing this, http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/82189-body-spirit-soul-question-spirit.html, and http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/154201-what-spirit.html, (and maybe more) but they don't really go far enough for what I'm looking for, so I'm hoping a new thread will generate a stronger conversation with more scripture references.

Peace!

Man is a 3 part being.

1 Thess 5:23

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

spirit,
flesh/body
soul=mind, will, emotions, passions, intellect,

The word of God divides the spirit of man, where the word is absorbed and truly takes root from the soul of a man, his mind will, emotions, passions, intellect,

Head knowledge of the word versus heart/spirit knowledge of the word.

 

[Musicus]

spirit,
flesh/body
soul=mind, will, emotions, passions, intellect

It's always seemed to me that if emotions, will, and passions are soul parts, they still must be driven by spirit, or something like that. My study partner is asking: How can the Word divide the soul and spirit and us not know or sense this division or separation?

 

[beastslayer1970]

It's always seemed to me that if emotions, will, and passions are soul parts, they still must be driven by spirit, or something like that. My study partner is asking: How can the Word divide the soul and spirit and us not know or sense this division or separation?

The flesh will follow either the mind or the spirit of a man.

Ever notice when you begin a lifestyle change of different eating habits and you spend a few months doing it your body craves the right food, not the cheeseburger and O rings? The same is true for the Spirit inside of you, once oyu start feasting on the word, your spirit divides from mental understanding and the holy Spirit brings forth the word of life and your spirit begins leading your soul and your body follows the spirit not the mind.

 

[Blain]

Well to me I have always felt that the soul and spirit are two separate things. For instance all through the bible you hear of God's spirit right? but have you ever heard the scriptures speak of God's soul? I have always felt that my soul was my true self, I mean i look in the mirror and I hear my own voice yet they both feel like a stranger to me like that isn't what i really look like and isn't what I really sound like and whenever I feel doubt about my worth or whenever the enemy tries to bring me down by making me feel sinful and dirty even though sadly for the most part I tend to to believe it it still doesn't feel like me.

Whenever I am with god I can get a sense of my true self, when I am with him I feel like small innocent child like my souls body itself is in the form of a child clean pure innocent and endearing towards his father and for me this seems to be the real me not what my fleshly vessel is. But the with God is that he has always been his true self he was never limited by any means especially by the flesh and is the essence of life itself. in genesis it speaks of how the breath of life was given to Adam's body and he became a living soul but notice he only became a soul once he was given life.

A spirit however seems different, just as the flesh can hold a soul it also can hold a spirit but a spirit seems to be a being in of itself with a consciousness of it's own. every time you read of people being possessed in the bible it's described as a demonic spirit not a demonic soul. also notice how there can be several different number of spirits in a person if it's demonic but if one has the holy spirit in them then no other spirit can reside in a person.

But the word spirit is used to describe more than just a ghostly body it also can describe a persons nature or attribute. For instance I have noticed that there are what I call children of water and children of fire, when I talk to people I can sort of get a sense of what kind they are and I believe this is the discerning of spirits. For instance a child of fire is passionate and is on fire for God they show great devotion and tend to be the more energetic and out going type of believer their fire is evident to the eyes and heart of others and they are the ones who make a spark in peoples hearts and reignite that passion for God ablaze.

However they also can be rash and hasty and sometimes will be too outspoken and say things that might not be said and they also can be a little to hot headed and often times are not so great in patience and responding to attacks patiently.


Then there is the children of water these types of people seem to have a more serene thing about them, they tend to be quick to listen and slow to speak and are more keen on patience and they tend to be more like care givers or teachers than the lets get things done fiery workers, they also will spend hours on end in a quiet environment studying the bible being as still waters and soaking up all they read. They are usually the ones who can hold their own in a fiery war like thread and yet respond calmly and can be the voice of reason they make great teachers and even better students.

Then there are those like me who are both children of fire and water kind of like how if you have a layer of oil on water the fire can be ablaze on top of the water without dousing for people such as me we tend to have a spirit of balance where can be either one depending on the situation or what is needed. but this is just my take on the subject

 

[MarcR]

Back in 2001-3 I was in a recovery program that was really a 'Bible boot camp' geared towards sin addiction recovery. Early in the program I was bothered by Hebrews 4:12

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." KJV

I thought 'How do I know my soul from my spirit?' I became a Christian at Sunday School when I was 6, reconfirmed this and was baptized when I was 20, but I had never thought over this scripture. I'm not really bothered about it anymore because I drove everyone around me crazy for 2 months asking about it, and I more or less found answers that satisfied me at the time. But now my curiosity is stirred again, because the question came up recently in a Bible study and we all just kinda stared at each other since it was off-topic, and we decided to hold the question for another night. I got myself volunteered to put together a study on it, and I figure some outside input might help us.


This is what I'm starting with:


1. I am spirit, created in God's image, and God is spirit.


2. I possess a soul. I haven't found scripture yet showing where and when people were given souls, but I know it can be lost. "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" Matthew 16:26 KJV


3. I know the Word can separate my soul from my spirit.


btw we use mainly NKJV and NIV study bibles, but not exclusively.
I'm aware there are two other threads addressing this, http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/82189-body-spirit-soul-question-spirit.html, and http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/154201-what-spirit.html, (and maybe more) but they don't really go far enough for what I'm looking for, so I'm hoping a new thread will generate a stronger conversation with more scripture references.

Peace!

Ge 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV

 

[reneweddaybyday]

2. I possess a soul. I haven't found scripture yet showing where and when people were given souls, but I know it can be lost. "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" Matthew 16:26 KJV

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


"living" (Hebrew ḥay·yāh) soul" (Hebrew lə·ne·p̄eš)

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Ge 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV

had the same thought as you!!!

 

[Nehemiah6]

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." KJV

This passage clearly establishes that your innermost being consists of two parts -- your soul and your spirit. They are so closely linked that only the Word of God (and God Himself) can distinguish as to which is spirit and which is soul. Also the thoughts and intents of the heart [aka soul] can only be discerned by God.

Then we have this verse, which tells us that man is a tripartite being with the soul and spirit resident within the body, but from God's perspective, the spirit comes first, then the soul, and finally the body (the tabernacle of the soul and spirit): And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess 5:23).

This is what I'm starting with:
1. I am spirit, created in God's image, and God is spirit.

This is incorrect. God did not create Adam a spirit, but a man, and when He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, both the soul and the spirit came into existence and both were alive within that body. Which meant that God and Adam could freely communicate with each other. The image of God reflects the capabilities of God which He has given to mankind -- a spirit to communicate with Him, and a soul which consists of the mind, the emotions, and the will.

Because of Adam, all human beings are born with a body and soul which are alive, but the spirit is dead until and unless it is quickened or made alive when the Holy Spirit enters the spirit before the New Birth.

2. I possess a soul. I haven't found scripture yet showing where and when people were given souls, but I know it can be lost. "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" Matthew 16:26 KJV

When Adam became a living soul, all human beings would have a living soul in Adam's image.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7).

3. I know the Word can separate my soul from my spirit.

The Word is designed to penetrate your soul and spirit ans expose your thoughts and motives to God. And Christians are to experience the "washing by the Word" which means that as God brings your sins to your consciousness, you confess and repent and they are washed by the blood of Christ. The Word is God's "Light" which shines into your soul and spirit.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (1 John 1:7).

 

[OneFaith]

Your spirit is your attitude and personality- which can change. But your soul is who you are- which can never change. You cannot become another person, but you can think and act more like another person- like Jesus. We can become Christ-like, but we can never become Christ. When John the Baptist came, He came ‘in the spirit and power of Elijah’. He was like Elijah, but he was not Elijah.

 

[beastslayer1970]

Your spirit is your attitude and personality- which can change. But your soul is who you are- which can never change. You cannot become another person, but you can think and act more like another person- like Jesus. We can become Christ-like, but we can never become Christ. When John the Baptist came, He came ‘in the spirit and power of Elijah’. He was like Elijah, but he was not Elijah.

You have this in reverse. Your soul is your attitude and mind. Your Spirit is the real you.

The Spirit upon Elijah & John was the Spirit of God, not their inward man.

 

[beastslayer1970]

This passage clearly establishes that your innermost being consists of two parts -- your soul and your spirit. They are so closely linked that only the Word of God (and God Himself) can distinguish as to which is spirit and which is soul. Also the thoughts and intents of the heart [aka soul] can only be discerned by God.

Then we have this verse, which tells us that man is a tripartite being with the soul and spirit resident within the body, but from God's perspective, the spirit comes first, then the soul, and finally the body (the tabernacle of the soul and spirit): And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess 5:23).

This is incorrect. God did not create Adam a spirit, but a man, and when He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, both the soul and the spirit came into existence and both were alive within that body. Which meant that God and Adam could freely communicate with each other. The image of God reflects the capabilities of God which He has given to mankind -- a spirit to communicate with Him, and a soul which consists of the mind, the emotions, and the will.

Because of Adam, all human beings are born with a body and soul which are alive, but the spirit is dead until and unless it is quickened or made alive when the Holy Spirit enters the spirit before the New Birth.

When Adam became a living soul, all human beings would have a living soul in Adam's image.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7).

The Word is designed to penetrate your soul and spirit ans expose your thoughts and motives to God. And Christians are to experience the "washing by the Word" which means that as God brings your sins to your consciousness, you confess and repent and they are washed by the blood of Christ. The Word is God's "Light" which shines into your soul and spirit.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (1 John 1:7).

The Breath God breathed into Adam was his Spirit, just as when Jesus blew on the disciples and told them to receive the Holy Spirit. The correct rendering of soul in Gen 2:7 is living being, not soul. A human cannot be alive without his Spirit, as people born handicapped and with special needs prove. Their soul[mind is not there] but their Spirit remains.

 

[beastslayer1970]

Ge 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV

Mark, I use the NASB so what is the difference in the Hebrew between Living Soul and Living Being?

 

[Johnny_B]

It's always seemed to me that if emotions, will, and passions are soul parts, they still must be driven by spirit, or something like that. My study partner is asking: How can the Word divide the soul and spirit and us not know or sense this division or separation?

The soul is the emotional part of man as stated and our spirit comes form God, it is the life that was breathed into us as stated in Genesis. While we are sinners in our unregenerate state our sould rules our lives by fulfilling our emotions and desires what ever they may be. For some it is drugs and the feeling that the sould gets from that altered state. For others it can be sex and the fulfilling of those desires and the list goes on.

In our unregenerate state it is the soul that rules us in the fulfilling of those desires or fleshly desires as the Bible puts it. Our spirit is not in control of what we are doing, this is why Hebrews says that the word of God divides the soul and spirit. It is our spirit that is regenerate when we become born again as it states in John 3:5 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

Being born of water and the Spirit is our enterance to the kingdon of God, but nothice that John 3:3 is our being about to see the kingdom of heaven, so that we can repent/believe have faith. “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

When we look at what Jesus, Peter, Paul and James say about the Word of God, we see that it santifes and is part of the rebirth process as well.

John 17:17 “Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.”

I Peter 1:22-23 “Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart,23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;”

Notice also that part of being born again is the purifing of the soul.

James 1:18 “Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.”

Also notice here it is by the Lord's will that He brought us forth by the word of God, it is by His will not ours.

Ephesians 5:25-27 “Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.”

God's word is used by Christ to sancity His bride that we will be spotless and withour blemish, so that we will enter the kingdom of God.

Now lets look at John 3:3, 5-8 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.....5Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

John 3:3 and James 1:18 go together, we need to be born again to see the kingdom, so that mean that there is nothing we can do to see the kingdom and James tells us that the Father by His will, He brings us forth by the word of truth or causes us to be born again as Peter tells us in I Peter 1:3.

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,”

Our enterance to the kingdom is by our response to the owrd of truth and being sealed by the promised Spirit, Ephesians 1:13-14

“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”

Here in Ephesians we see what Jesus was teaching about entering the kingdom in John 3, being born of the water or the word of God and the Spirit or the regeneration of our spirits. In I Peter he teaches that we purifiy the soul by the obedience to the word of truth. Now that we are born again that our soul and spirit have been divided by the word of God we continue on in the sancticifcation process, which is by grace through faith. It is oir faith that carries us through to our inheritance of our new glorified bodies. Ephesians 2:4-10

“But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”


Here is our part in the sancticifcation process II Peter 1:5-11, “For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge,6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness,7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

The santcification process is what helps enter the kingdom as well, it is our resppnse to His grace towards us. I hope this helps, I know I went on to long trying to help you give an answer to your friends.

 

[Nehemiah6]

A human cannot be alive without his Spirit, as people born handicapped and with special needs prove. Their soul[mind is not there] but their Spirit remains.

If this were really true, then there would be no need for anyone to be born of the Spirit. But Jesus said "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit". THEREFORE "Ye MUST be born again".

Because of Adam, the spirit is dead at birth and only the soul is alive. After the New Birth, the spirit is alive, and that is why that person can enter and see the Kingdom of God, and also understand spiritual things.

 

[beastslayer1970]

If this were really true, then there would be no need for anyone to be born of the Spirit. But Jesus said "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit". THEREFORE "Ye MUST be born again".

Because of Adam, the spirit is dead at birth and only the soul is alive. After the New Birth, the spirit is alive, and that is why that person can enter and see the Kingdom of God, and also understand spiritual things.

Do you think a mentally handicapped person that has no way to believe is going to hell then?

 

[garee]

3. I know the Word can separate my soul from my spirit.

I would offer or the same Word restore it anew.

The soul is the unseen faith principle as relationship a person has with it Creator a line of living communication that affects the heart or conscience of man . When the soul dies the heart loses its way to commune with God who is greater than the heart and knows all things as a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

To violate the law of the Creator the souls dies. The spirit is the essence of all life even the animal kingdom has a temporal spirit because of the fall. They are not subject to salvation so there is no working between a soul and a spirit for that kingdom or the angels, neither are subject to salvation.

When we are given a new born again soul as a way of communing with our faithful Creator we have a new spirit having passed from death to eternal life that will never die and a new heart in a hope of a new body .As we shed these bodies of death that lust after sin... the former things will not be remembered or ever come to mind. We will start with a clean slate.

Not a reconditioned old .

Ge 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

He breathed in the breath of spirit life ( not the breath of soul life) man became a living soul subject to keep the commandments. When his soul died his spirit died a slow death within the temporal time appointed.

Now that mankind lives in a corruptible body that ages in a process of decay leading to sure death of both the body and the spirit essence of life. They must be born again of the incorruptible seed the word of God it restores the soul as a our communication line with God .

1Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Do you think a mentally handicapped person that has no way to believe is going to hell then?

I did not suggest or imply that at all. What I have done is simply present what the Bible says about the soul and spirit. As to mentally handicapped people, God fully understands their predicament, and just as infants cannot respond to the Gospel, some who are mentally handicapped may be in the same predicament. Therefore God has already made provision for all those who cannot respond to the Gospel. They are saved by grace, because Christ has already paid the penalty for their sins.

 

[KelbyofGod]

I'm not really bothered about it anymore because I drove everyone around me crazy for 2 months asking about it, and I more or less found answers that satisfied me at the time.

You asked people and found answers that "satisfied... at the time". Might I ask.. Is that what you are looking for again? or would you prefer to find answers that will stick with you for all your days?

Seeking answers from man will always leave you wondering whether or not you've gotten the true answer, or just another answer that sounds good for a while.

If you really want to know the truth of any subject, I really recommend taking it to God pretty much exclusively. It might take longer to get the answer but, when he finally gets it to you, you'll be able to stand on it no matter what anyone else says.

Of course, that means you may have to learn to "wait upon the Lord"...which doesn't sound like a lot of fun when you're wanting an answer before your study group reconvenes...but if you really want to know, it's the only way to go.

As for how to handle the bible study group, feel free to present any verses you found on the matter, and maybe even your current thoughts about it. But if you haven't gotten a clear answer from the Lord by that time, TELL THEM THAT. Let them know you're still seeking God and waiting for him to give you a clear answer about it. If you're worried they might think you just didn't try... ask what they have learned on the subject since your last meeting (as a reminder that they aren't to be blind followers, but fellow seekers).

After all, isn't that what bible study is all about? learning to seek God rather than just waiting for someone(man) to hand you the answers?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[jb]

Division of SOUL and SPIRIT

Did a bit of a blog on this, you can find it Here