Do not teach my people to fly to save their souls

[Blade]

Hi.. thanks. I just came to add to "Yes I know that the rapture doctrine was started my Margaret Mac Donald.

Its always not hard but.. some times I just don't even want to touch things said like this. No offense but it shows the person did no searching what so ever. In a day like today when we have the world of INFO in our hands and.. people do not search. I am not here preaching teaching "pre-trib/post-trib" since I don't follow those. Well I can't find them the word of God with out adding telling you what God was really saying, what the verse really means. Some have done in this tread that exact thing. They must know the verses they explained others disagree with that definition.

I wonder have we read what Margaret said? Yeah I have. That always got to me. This was so many years ago. When all this INTERNET was not fully here. But I always thought someone had to have said something about "caught up". So I went digging. I found a hymn writer/preacher. You could see the scrolls where he wrote about Christ coming before the great tabulation. That was 300-400ad. Some time later watching TBN when they were still alive (owners) and young. Grant had a show.. I was so happy.. He talked about that same Hymn writer and showed the scrolls! Later showed even more stuff written before 300-400ad.

I then watched preachers we know today.. hello Perry Stone for one. He talked about. Showed per-trib talked about in 1600. Theres so much more. See not once did any of them say "see this is proof". No.. we all know all it means is "pre-trib was talked about preached about thats it. If I talked about "only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. " and they say "thats the holy Spirit the Church holding the lawless one back". <---thats not written. Yet this is some do. They tell you what it really means. Since I can not do this will not I then just simply believe Christ went back to make me a home and where He is right now is where I will be. He is not coming as where I am He will be. Then I was not promised tomorrow so all I have is now. Over the years I have found He will never ever go against my will never make me do anything say think anything. I know all the times I doubted it stopped Him ever time.

So if I am not ready watching believing and He comes now.. I will not go. All I know is He is coming in the clouds.. I will be caught up. WHEN that happens no clue. I personally believe know I have all power over the enemy. I have GOD in me and the sweet holy Spirit who will never leave me so Satan can not ever have more power over me. He can now come out in the open while I am still here (the Church). I would have to be gone before that happens. Yet this is NOT written in the word this way. So many leave out "this is what I personally believe". They talk as if their personal truth is true and all others are wrong.

So for me some things said here I can not find written. Best you pray you read you seek you study ask Him. Don't take my word for any of this you find it for your self.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Very neat overlap with Rev 12.

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." - Rev 12:14 KJV

Read the song of Moses brother Deuteronomy 32 it lays a foundation for Israel’s testament and shows up in revelation later

“For the LORD's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance. He found him in a desert land, And in the waste howling wilderness; He led him about, he instructed him, He kept him as the apple of his eye. As an eagle stirreth up her nest, Fluttereth over her young, Spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, Beareth them on her wings: So the LORD alone did lead him, And there was no strange god with him.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭32:9-12‬ ‭

“And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭19:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Have you noticed the passage of time from daniels vision of the coming events to johns to the now occurring events ?

“And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever

that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭12:7‬ ‭

That’s about 600 bc And then johns day about 650-700 years later

“And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭10:5-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

See daniels vision is where the events begin the first beast in Babylon specifically nebucadnezzar in johns time the events have progressed to the sixth head of the same beasts Daniel saw before they rose

“And there are seven kings: five are fallen, ( past )

and one is, ( johns present day )

and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh,( johns near future ) he must continue a short space.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

daniels four beasts with seven heads are johns one beast with seven heads that has the same detailed appearance johns vision is just further along near the end and the beast are actually kings and rulers

So you have seven heads and ten horns rising from the sea

“Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. The first was like a lion, …And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, …. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; ….; and it had ten horns.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:2-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so now johns revelation seeing it all as one

“And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬


The Old Testament is like the foundation of the new revelation especially the other prophets you can find everything in revelation in the ot like these examples and your example also revelation is like the whole picture of all those scattered prophecies in a heavenly vision

 

[Thewatchman]

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." - 1 Cor 15:52 KJV

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." - 1 Thes 4:16-17 KJV

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." - John 5:25 KJV

"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:" - Rev 1:10-11a KJV

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." - Rev 20:4-5 KJV

If you read the above passages, you will see where "Rev 20:5 rapture theory" comes from. Chronologically, there is the descent of the Lord, the first resurrection and then the "Caught up together" event.

Let's compare that to the theory that the seventh angel trump is the last trump:

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." - Rev 11:15 KJV

The time difference between Rev 11:15 and Rev 20:5 does not appear to be "in the twinkle of an eye" required by 1 Cor 15:52.... I don't understand why you would think that the seventh angel trump is the last trump. If you have a moment, can you explain your position?

Revelation 1.

9.I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet.

One of the first things you have to remember John was taken to the Lords Day the first day of the millennium. He is in the spirit, He is not in his flesh body. He is going to be able to see forward in time and back in time. This makes the sequence of things hard to follow.

 

[Jocund]

Revelation 1.

9.I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet.

One of the first things you have to remember John was taken to the Lords Day the first day of the millennium. He is in the spirit, He is not in his flesh body. He is going to be able to see forward in time and back in time. This makes the sequence of things hard to follow.

OK, so far I understand that you are proposing that the flow of time is convoluted in Revelation. I don't have any objection to that perspective.

Beyond that premise, what else are you proposing in order to line up the seventh angel trump with the last trump?

 

[Thewatchman]

OK, so far I understand that you are proposing that the flow of time is convoluted in Revelation. I don't have any objection to that perspective.

Beyond that premise, what else are you proposing in order to line up the seventh angel trump with the last trump?

Show me where there is an 8th trump. Jesus said there are 7 seals, 7 vials and 7 trumps. That makes 7 the last one 1-6 do not come after 7.

 

[Jocund]

Show me where there is an 8th trump. Jesus said there are 7 seals, 7 vials and 7 trumps. That makes 7 the last one 1-6 do not come after 7.

There are seven angel trumps (cf. Rev 8) but that doesn't mean that the trump of God is an angel trump (cf. 1 Thes 4:16-17). If the trump of God comes after the seven angel trumps, that makes the trump of God the last trump, not the seventh angel trump.

Jesus said there are

For the sake of context, which passage are you talking about?

 

[Thewatchman]

OK, so far I understand that you are proposing that the flow of time is convoluted in Revelation. I don't have any objection to that perspective.

Beyond that premise, what else are you proposing in order to line up the seventh angel trump with the last trump?

Revelation 8.



1When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.2And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and they were given seven trumpets.

Who gave the 7 angles the 7 trumps? God. They were not the angel's trumps, they were God's trumps given to the angles. Notice that the trumps were given after all 7 seals were opened. That is another study for another time.

 

[Thewatchman]

Read the song of Moses brother Deuteronomy 32 it lays a foundation for Israel’s testament and shows up in revelation later

“For the LORD's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance. He found him in a desert land, And in the waste howling wilderness; He led him about, he instructed him, He kept him as the apple of his eye. As an eagle stirreth up her nest, Fluttereth over her young, Spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, Beareth them on her wings: So the LORD alone did lead him, And there was no strange god with him.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭32:9-12‬ ‭

“And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭19:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Have you noticed the passage of time from daniels vision of the coming events to johns to the now occurring events ?

“And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever

that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭12:7‬ ‭

That’s about 600 bc And then johns day about 650-700 years later

“And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭10:5-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

See daniels vision is where the events begin the first beast in Babylon specifically nebucadnezzar in johns time the events have progressed to the sixth head of the same beasts Daniel saw before they rose

“And there are seven kings: five are fallen, ( past )

and one is, ( johns present day )

and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh,( johns near future ) he must continue a short space.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

daniels four beasts with seven heads are johns one beast with seven heads that has the same detailed appearance johns vision is just further along near the end and the beast are actually kings and rulers

So you have seven heads and ten horns rising from the sea

“Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. The first was like a lion, …And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, …. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; ….; and it had ten horns.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:2-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so now johns revelation seeing it all as one

“And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬


The Old Testament is like the foundation of the new revelation especially the other prophets you can find everything in revelation in the ot like these examples and your example also revelation is like the whole picture of all those scattered prophecies in a heavenly vision

That is right; The Song of Moses is the song that those that over will sing. It is a good thing to know if you want to become an over comer.

 

[Thewatchman]

Hi.. thanks. I just came to add to "Yes I know that the rapture doctrine was started my Margaret Mac Donald.

Its always not hard but.. some times I just don't even want to touch things said like this. No offense but it shows the person did no searching what so ever. In a day like today when we have the world of INFO in our hands and.. people do not search. I am not here preaching teaching "pre-trib/post-trib" since I don't follow those. Well I can't find them the word of God with out adding telling you what God was really saying, what the verse really means. Some have done in this tread that exact thing. They must know the verses they explained others disagree with that definition.

I wonder have we read what Margaret said? Yeah I have. That always got to me. This was so many years ago. When all this INTERNET was not fully here. But I always thought someone had to have said something about "caught up". So I went digging. I found a hymn writer/preacher. You could see the scrolls where he wrote about Christ coming before the great tabulation. That was 300-400ad. Some time later watching TBN when they were still alive (owners) and young. Grant had a show.. I was so happy.. He talked about that same Hymn writer and showed the scrolls! Later showed even more stuff written before 300-400ad.

I then watched preachers we know today.. hello Perry Stone for one. He talked about. Showed per-trib talked about in 1600. Theres so much more. See not once did any of them say "see this is proof". No.. we all know all it means is "pre-trib was talked about preached about thats it. If I talked about "only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. " and they say "thats the holy Spirit the Church holding the lawless one back". <---thats not written. Yet this is some do. They tell you what it really means. Since I can not do this will not I then just simply believe Christ went back to make me a home and where He is right now is where I will be. He is not coming as where I am He will be. Then I was not promised tomorrow so all I have is now. Over the years I have found He will never ever go against my will never make me do anything say think anything. I know all the times I doubted it stopped Him ever time.

So if I am not ready watching believing and He comes now.. I will not go. All I know is He is coming in the clouds.. I will be caught up. WHEN that happens no clue. I personally believe know I have all power over the enemy. I have GOD in me and the sweet holy Spirit who will never leave me so Satan can not ever have more power over me. He can now come out in the open while I am still here (the Church). I would have to be gone before that happens. Yet this is NOT written in the word this way. So many leave out "this is what I personally believe". They talk as if their personal truth is true and all others are wrong.

So for me some things said here I can not find written. Best you pray you read you seek you study ask Him. Don't take my word for any of this you find it for your self.

I have read about Margaret Mac Donald. At the time of her vision she was sick, and said the vision seamed to be demonic, She also had some mental issues; But you had a very willing pastor to take this dream and make a religion out of it. That pastors name was John Durby. If you want a good study of this(not for the beginner) read “The Rapture Plot” by David Mc Pherson. It is sad that so many churches today have taken this false doctrine made up by a man from a dream of a sick woman that said it was a dark and demonic dream.

 

[Jocund]

Revelation 8.



1When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.2And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and they were given seven trumpets.

Who gave the 7 angles the 7 trumps? God. They were not the angel's trumps, they were God's trumps given to the angles.

It isn't explicitly the case in Rev 8:2 that the trumps received by the angels were God's. It isn't explicitly the case that the trumps were given by God.

Notice that the trumps were given after all 7 seals were opened. That is another study for another time.

We see the use of trumps in Rev 18:22. I think there is good value in comparing those seven trumps sounded by the angels to the seven seals. But I think with consideration of Rev 18:22, that the seventh trump pertaining to the seals isn't the last trump.

 

[Thewatchman]

There are seven angel trumps (cf. Rev 8) but that doesn't mean that the trump of God is an angel trump (cf. 1 Thes 4:16-17). If the trump of God comes after the seven angel trumps, that makes the trump of God the last trump, not the seventh angel trump.



For the sake of context, which passage are you talking about?

Revelation 8:1 "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour."

We see here the opening of the seventh seal; for then it will start the sounding of the seven trumpets. Though the seals are not in chronological order, the trumpets are sounded to do an action. The trumpets are actions that are in order and acted upon at the sounding of each of the trumpets.

Revelation 8:2 "And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."

John witnessed these seven angels being given their trumpets.

 

[Jocund]

Revelation 8:1 "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour."

We see here the opening of the seventh seal; for then it will start the sounding of the seven trumpets. Though the seals are not in chronological order, the trumpets are sounded to do an action. The trumpets are actions that are in order and acted upon at the sounding of each of the trumpets.

Revelation 8:2 "And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."

John witnessed these seven angels being given their trumpets.

I'm interested, I just don't understand. Are you proposing that Rev 11:15 and Rev 20:5 happen at the same time?

 

[Thewatchman]

This is may seam long but it is a brief overview

In starting the word revelation in what ever language you say it in means to reveal, to make known, #602 in the Greek section of the Strong's Concordance.



Merriam Webster (copied from)

revelation

Definition of revelation

1a: an act of revealing or communicating divine truth​

b: something that is revealed by God to humans​

2a: an act of revealing to view or making known​

b: something that is revealedespecially : an enlightening or astonishing disclosureshocking revelations​

c: a pleasant often enlightening surpriseher talent was a revelation​

3capitalized : an apocalyptic writing addressed to early Christians of Asia Minor and included as a book in the New Testament​

— called also Apocalypse​

We are to understand this book of Revelation. From chapter 1 verse 1 to chapter 22 verse 21

Chapter 1 verse 10.I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

John was not on the Isle of Patmos. He was in the spirit he was outside his flesh body.



Chapter 4

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2And immediately I was in the spirit:

John gets the message for the 7 churches; and then what happens? A door opens and a voice like a trumpet calls John.

Stop right here and thank is the church called no, Just John; but I know people that go to a church where that is preached. The church is ruptured away at the end of Revelation 3, and has nothing to do with helping , teaching, ministering . . . to the people anymore. There gone.

John gives a description of the throne and Him that sat upon it, the 4 and 20 elders. The bible does not tell us just who they are but a good guess would be the heads of the 12 tribes and the 12 apostles and the “zoa” which means"living ones". The "zoa" are the cherubims of Genesis 3:24. In Ezekiel 1:5-14, they are the protective cherubims of God's throne. Basically these four creatures do not have free will, for their duty is solely to protect and to guard. Revelation 4:9"And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,"

Christ is the source of power that allows us to live forever and ever.

Revelation 4:10"The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,"

The power that is in their crowns, their authority, and all that they have are cast before the throne of God in humility, showing that all power and authority that exists comes from the Father.

Revelation 4:11"Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

This is what these voices of the four beasts, and the twenty four elders said. They recognized that all glory is of God, and belongs to Him. Our God is the God of the Universe, for it is God that created all things. When God created mankind, our sole purpose of existence at any age or time, is for His pleasure.

 

[Thewatchman]

I'm interested, I just don't understand. Are you proposing that Rev 11:15 and Rev 20:5 happen at the same time?

 

[Thewatchman]

I'm interested, I just don't understand. Are you proposing that Rev 11:15 and Rev 20:5 happen at the same time?

Chapter 5.

Revelation 5:1"And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside,sealed with seven seals."

We are going to learn about this book, and the seven seals.

5:2"And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?"

This powerful angel spoke with the voice of authority. This is the subject of the entire book of Revelation; The unveiling, and the opening of this book. Who has the authority and can do it? This book that is written both within and without is plum full of things we “Christians” ought to know. It is directed to this generation that we are now living in; the last generation. 5:3"And no man in heaven, nor in earth,neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon."

Word References:

"neither"-3761 oude (oo-deh'); from 3756 and 1161; not however, i.e. neither, nor, not even: KJV-- neither (indeed), never, no (more, nor, not), nor (yet), (also, even, then) not (even, so much as), +nothing, so much as.

"under" -5270 hupokato (hoop-ok-at'-o); from 5259 and 2736;down under, i.e. beneath:under.

"earth" -1098 gleukos - the sweet juice pressed from the grape,sweet wine

Some may say;"I didn't know there were men in heaven?" Oh yes. Anytime you have a soul, you have a man. There is no gender to this "man", for in the soul body all are the same."Under the world"; is in the neither world, or also called the spirit realm.



5:4"And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and read the book, neither to look thereon."

John stood there, and wanted so badly to understand what was in the book, It was impossible for him. Have you ever wanted to understand part of the Bible that was so confusing that you needed help so you could overcome a problem for that time? The key in understanding this is in the"Key of David"; which the churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia did have.

Revelation 5:5 "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Ju-da, the Root of Da'-vid, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof."

5:6"And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts [living creatures], and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."

"beasts"-2226 zoon(dzo'-on); neuter of a derivative of 2198; a live thing, i.e. an animal:
KJV-- beast.

Here, around the throne of God stood these four beasts [zoon], all of the elders, and in the middle of them stood our Lord Jesus Christ.

After the Lamb was slain, and then and only then were the Seven Spirits of God sent to all the earth. “The Ruach", the Holy Spirit was on the earth prior, but not with the power to overcome spiritual death. After the crucifixion, Jesus Christ went to these prisoners and preached to them, and released many that had died long before. This is recorded in I Peter 3:18, and those prisoners were from all the way back to the time of Noah. In chapter four it stated that Jesus released many. Why? Because the price for sin had been paid.

Jesus preached to them and gave them the privilege to believe upon Him, and they were given salvation, even as it is offered to you and I today. Each of them were in their spiritual bodies when Jesus gave them their freedom. This is real power, and it was done for God's pleasure.

5:7"And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him sat upon the throne."

"He came and took the book", means"He became the Word of God"

5:8"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts [living creatures] and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials [bowls] full of odours [incense], which are the prayers of the saints."

The saints are"ones set aside". They are all those who love God, and want to please Him. All those prayers you pray and think God has not heard you; they are all stored up by God, and God will remember, and act on each one. Maybe not when you think He should, but according to His perfect plan.

5:9"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to [did purchase unto] God by the blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;"



This is “not a new song” You should already know it. It is the Song of Moses.



5:10"And hast made us unto our God kings [a kingdom] and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

Where does this say we shall reign? On the earth. It does not say He is going to fly us away and make us kings and priests in heaven. IT SAYS “ on the earth!



5:11"And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;"

Word Reference:

"Ten Thousand" -3461 murias (moo-ree'-as); from 3463; a ten-thousand; by extension, a "myriad" or indefinite number: Notice what the verse says Ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands. That is really to many to count.

Revelation 5:12"Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing."

All these souls present in heaven were happy and shouting praise to Jesus Christ. The Seven Spirits of God are given to our Lord, who is the Lamb of God that was slain.

It is Christ who chooses who gets the each individual spirit, or a combination of these spirits placed upon them. Whatever spirit and gift you possess is placed upon you for one purpose, and that is for God's pleasure and glory.

What have you done with what God has given you? Each of those gifts you have been given, you will be held accountable for, and that includes all your gifts. When you stand before Him face to face, will His response be "Well done my faithful servant, _________, " [place your name there in the blank], will He smile and be pleased with you? Or will Jesus say, "Get away from me, you worker of iniquity.

There is one other thing you need to understand here. Where are these people, these souls? They are with God; They are not in some hole in the ground, ashes in a box or where ever else. The spirit, the soul is with God on one side of the gulf or the other.

5:13"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."

On that Day in the near future when all souls will be in their incorruptible bodies, and this flesh age is over; all souls will bow down and glorify our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is worthy to receive all the blessing, honor, glory and power, and He will.

Revelation 5:14"And the four beasts [living creatures] said A'-men. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever."

God is eternal, just as you are, if you are under the blood of the Lamb that was slain for each of our sins. All sins are covered when we repent and believe on Jesus name, and follow Him as He has instructed us. In Christ and Christ alone, can we have the power and wisdom of God, as well as everything else that is part of God's eternal kingdom

 

[RichGladden]

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:3).

Does that verse say "I will come again AFTER THE TRIBULATION and receive you unto myself"? The apostolic churches expected the Rapture at any time. They regarded it as IMMINENT based upon several statements of Christ even prior to this revelation. Now if that is not solid evidence for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, then you do not know how to discern Bible truth.

No, it does not say "After the Tribulation", in fact it isn't at all time-specific, meaning it also does not say pre-trib. Matthew 24:29=30 states specifically Jesus comes after the tribulation. To dismiss that, spoken by Jesus himself, is to reject truth.

2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Jocund]

Chapter 5.

Revelation 5:1"And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside,sealed with seven seals."

We are going to learn about this book, and the seven seals.

5:2"And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?"

This powerful angel spoke with the voice of authority. This is the subject of the entire book of Revelation; The unveiling, and the opening of this book. Who has the authority and can do it? This book that is written both within and without is plum full of things we “Christians” ought to know. It is directed to this generation that we are now living in; the last generation. 5:3"And no man in heaven, nor in earth,neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon."

Word References:

"neither"-3761 oude (oo-deh'); from 3756 and 1161; not however, i.e. neither, nor, not even: KJV-- neither (indeed), never, no (more, nor, not), nor (yet), (also, even, then) not (even, so much as), +nothing, so much as.

"under" -5270 hupokato (hoop-ok-at'-o); from 5259 and 2736;down under, i.e. beneath:under.

"earth" -1098 gleukos - the sweet juice pressed from the grape,sweet wine

Some may say;"I didn't know there were men in heaven?" Oh yes. Anytime you have a soul, you have a man. There is no gender to this "man", for in the soul body all are the same."Under the world"; is in the neither world, or also called the spirit realm.



5:4"And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and read the book, neither to look thereon."

John stood there, and wanted so badly to understand what was in the book, It was impossible for him. Have you ever wanted to understand part of the Bible that was so confusing that you needed help so you could overcome a problem for that time? The key in understanding this is in the"Key of David"; which the churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia did have.

Revelation 5:5 "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Ju-da, the Root of Da'-vid, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof."

5:6"And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts [living creatures], and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."

"beasts"-2226 zoon(dzo'-on); neuter of a derivative of 2198; a live thing, i.e. an animal:
KJV-- beast.

Here, around the throne of God stood these four beasts [zoon], all of the elders, and in the middle of them stood our Lord Jesus Christ.

After the Lamb was slain, and then and only then were the Seven Spirits of God sent to all the earth. “The Ruach", the Holy Spirit was on the earth prior, but not with the power to overcome spiritual death. After the crucifixion, Jesus Christ went to these prisoners and preached to them, and released many that had died long before. This is recorded in I Peter 3:18, and those prisoners were from all the way back to the time of Noah. In chapter four it stated that Jesus released many. Why? Because the price for sin had been paid.

Jesus preached to them and gave them the privilege to believe upon Him, and they were given salvation, even as it is offered to you and I today. Each of them were in their spiritual bodies when Jesus gave them their freedom. This is real power, and it was done for God's pleasure.

5:7"And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him sat upon the throne."

"He came and took the book", means"He became the Word of God"

5:8"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts [living creatures] and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials [bowls] full of odours [incense], which are the prayers of the saints."

The saints are"ones set aside". They are all those who love God, and want to please Him. All those prayers you pray and think God has not heard you; they are all stored up by God, and God will remember, and act on each one. Maybe not when you think He should, but according to His perfect plan.

5:9"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to [did purchase unto] God by the blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;"



This is “not a new song” You should already know it. It is the Song of Moses.



5:10"And hast made us unto our God kings [a kingdom] and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

Where does this say we shall reign? On the earth. It does not say He is going to fly us away and make us kings and priests in heaven. IT SAYS “ on the earth!



5:11"And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;"

Word Reference:

"Ten Thousand" -3461 murias (moo-ree'-as); from 3463; a ten-thousand; by extension, a "myriad" or indefinite number: Notice what the verse says Ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands. That is really to many to count.

Revelation 5:12"Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing."

All these souls present in heaven were happy and shouting praise to Jesus Christ. The Seven Spirits of God are given to our Lord, who is the Lamb of God that was slain.

It is Christ who chooses who gets the each individual spirit, or a combination of these spirits placed upon them. Whatever spirit and gift you possess is placed upon you for one purpose, and that is for God's pleasure and glory.

What have you done with what God has given you? Each of those gifts you have been given, you will be held accountable for, and that includes all your gifts. When you stand before Him face to face, will His response be "Well done my faithful servant, _________, " [place your name there in the blank], will He smile and be pleased with you? Or will Jesus say, "Get away from me, you worker of iniquity.

There is one other thing you need to understand here. Where are these people, these souls? They are with God; They are not in some hole in the ground, ashes in a box or where ever else. The spirit, the soul is with God on one side of the gulf or the other.

5:13"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."

On that Day in the near future when all souls will be in their incorruptible bodies, and this flesh age is over; all souls will bow down and glorify our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is worthy to receive all the blessing, honor, glory and power, and He will.

Revelation 5:14"And the four beasts [living creatures] said A'-men. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever."

God is eternal, just as you are, if you are under the blood of the Lamb that was slain for each of our sins. All sins are covered when we repent and believe on Jesus name, and follow Him as He has instructed us. In Christ and Christ alone, can we have the power and wisdom of God, as well as everything else that is part of God's eternal kingdom

That was a very long non-answer.

 

[Nehemiah6]

No, it does not say "After the Tribulation", in fact it isn't at all time-specific, meaning it also does not say pre-trib. Matthew 24:29=30 states specifically Jesus comes after the tribulation.

That passage may not be time -specific but other passages are crystal clear that the coming of Christ for His saints can occur at ANY TIME -- an unexpected and unannounced coming like "a thief in the night". And because Matthew 24 is about what happens AFTER Christ comes WITH His saints and angels at His Second Coming, it does not apply to the Resurrection/Rapture. Indeed it would be absurd to imagine that while the battle of Armageddon occurs, all the saints are being resurrected and raptured! In fact it would contradict Revelation 19.

What is shown in Matthew 29,30 is the gathering of the believing remnant of Israel --"the elect" -- after the Second Coming. Christ does not send out His angels to gather the Church, since He comes personally. Thus "I WILL RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF".

 

[RichMan]

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:3).

Does that verse say "I will come again AFTER THE TRIBULATION and receive you unto myself"? The apostolic churches expected the Rapture at any time. They regarded it as IMMINENT based upon several statements of Christ even prior to this revelation. Now if that is not solid evidence for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, then you do not know how to discern Bible truth.

It does not say before the tribulation.

 

[RichGladden]

That passage may not be time -specific but other passages are crystal clear that the coming of Christ for His saints can occur at ANY TIME -- an unexpected and unannounced coming like "a thief in the night". And because Matthew 24 is about what happens AFTER Christ comes WITH His saints and angels at His Second Coming, it does not apply to the Resurrection/Rapture. Indeed it would be absurd to imagine that while the battle of Armageddon occurs, all the saints are being resurrected and raptured! In fact it would contradict Revelation 19.

What is shown in Matthew 29,30 is the gathering of the believing remnant of Israel --"the elect" -- after the Second Coming. Christ does not send out His angels to gather the Church, since He comes personally. Thus "I WILL RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF".

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.