Do people burn in hell forever?

[Ahwatukee]

Or you could bold another word in that verse: “They will be punished with everlasting destruction and separated from the presence of God.” (2 Thessalonians 1:9)

Does the verse you quoted say unbelievers are permanently destroyed (everlasting destruction)? Or does it say they are kept alive and tortured (everlasting torment)?

Good day Prov910,

The problem is understanding the Greek word "olethros" that is being translated as "destroyed," which people then define as meaning annihilation or extinction, which the word does not convey. Below is the definition of the word olethros translated as "destroyed." Take notice of what the definition says regarding annihilation which I have highlighted in red and underlined.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Strong's Concordance

olethros: destruction, death​

Original Word: ὄλεθρος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: olethros
Phonetic Spelling: (ol'-eth-ros)
Short Definition: ruin, doom, destruction
Definition: ruin, doom, destruction, death.

HELPS Word-studies
3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

The meaning of olethros is then to suffer complete loss of well being, ruination and does not imply annihilation or extinction.

 

[valiant]

Good day Prov910,

The problem is understanding the Greek word "olethros" that is being translated as "destroyed," which people then define as meaning annihilation or extinction, which the word does not convey. Below is the definition of the word olethros translated as "destroyed." Take notice of what the definition says regarding annihilation which I have highlighted in red and underlined.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Strong's Concordance

olethros: destruction, death​

Original Word: ὄλεθρος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: olethros
Phonetic Spelling: (ol'-eth-ros)
Short Definition: ruin, doom, destruction
Definition: ruin, doom, destruction, death.

HELPS Word-studies
3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

The meaning of olethros is then to suffer complete loss of well being, ruination and does not imply annihilation or extinction.

Funny thing is that Plato knew Greek and he used it to mean totally destroyed, annihilated, the opposite of his immortality of the soul

 

[valiant]

And the smoke of their torment shall ascend forever before the throne.......Whatsoever God does, it is everlasting.....

The smoke arises for ever not the torment, unless you see the lamb and his angels enjoying the torment,

 

[Ahwatukee]

Funny thing is that Plato knew Greek and he used it to mean totally destroyed, annihilated, the opposite of his immortality of the soul

I've posted the definition of the word and it refers to the destruction of the spiritual state, i.e. complete loss of well being, complete ruin of the spiritual state as the end result. Can you read the part up there in the definition where it states that the word olethros does not imply extinction/annihilation? That's what it means. I'll go with God's meaning over Plato's, thank you.

 

[Bogadile]

The smoke arises for ever not the torment, unless you see the lamb and his angels enjoying the torment,

For there to be smoke there needs to be something that is burning.

Annihilationism is popular today precisely because people cannot deal with hell as it traditionally has been understood.

Go check out Polycarp, he held to the same idea and he knew John personally!

 

[TMS]

No
My God does not keep people alive for the purpose of torture. He is fair and just, and 100 years of sin is not = to eternal torment in fire.
This is an invention of paganism and adopted by the catholic church, and plus it teaches immortality of the soul which we do not have.

 

[dcontroversal]

The smoke arises for ever not the torment, unless you see the lamb and his angels enjoying the torment,

Take it up with God, his word and even the English which one would think you could understand....grammatically that is....

"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

You do understand the word "their" as applied unto the smoke right?

 

[Bogadile]

No
My God does not keep people alive for the purpose of torture. He is fair and just, and 100 years of sin is not = to eternal torment in fire.
This is an invention of paganism and adopted by the catholic church, and plus it teaches immortality of the soul which we do not have.

You are again inventing your own standard of fairness and justice.

It is not an invention of paganism and it was believed by Polycarp who knew John face to face, WAYY before the catholic church even existed.
Immortality of the soul was also believed by Christians for a looong time. Even Jews believe in it.

It is only in recent time after the advent of the Hebrew Roots movement that it is under question.

 

[Ahwatukee]

No
My God does not keep people alive for the purpose of torture. He is fair and just, and 100 years of sin is not = to eternal torment in fire.
This is an invention of paganism and adopted by the catholic church, and plus it teaches immortality of the soul which we do not have.

Hello TMS,

It is not about the amount of time of sin in our life time, but that our sins are against the Holy and eternal God, with separation from God in the lake of fire as the end result. This is what the combined scriptures teach. There is no scripture that would infer temporary punishment nor an end to that punishment. The invention of paganism has nothing to do with it, as eternal, everlasting punishment is what the scriptures teach.

You are correct in that God is fair and just, but that is for the living. Once a person dies without Christ and therefore in their sins, their record is sealed and as Jesus said, "every carless word that men shall speak, they shall give an account thereof on the day of judgment." At the great white throne judgment there will be no grace and mercy mixed in with those who have died in their sins.

 

[Prov910]

I've posted the definition of the word and it refers to the destruction of the spiritual state, i.e. complete loss of well being, complete ruin of the spiritual state as the end result. Can you read the part up there in the definition where it states that the word olethros does not imply extinction/annihilation? That's what it means. I'll go with God's meaning over Plato's, thank you.

First, thanks for your post above with the Greek words and definitions. But if I read correctly, the definition of olethros could be any of ruin, doom, destruction, death. The portion of the commentary you highlighted in red says that the word olethros does not necessarily imply annihilation or extinction. But rather, olethros, depending upon the context, could mean any of the four definitions: ruin, doom, destruction or death. Some in this thread, along with the author of HELPS Word-Studies (Discovery bible, right?), have chosen olethros to mean ruination rather than destruction or death. I'm not sure why, though, based on the context.

======================

I have a bible question: What does Paul mean when he says, "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom. 6:23) It sounds like he is contrasting eternal life with the opposite, which is death. If he hadn't intended death to mean an end or destruction, wouldn't he have said something like eternal torment?

 

[Bogadile]

I have a bible question: What does Paul mean when he says, "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom. 6:23) It sounds like he is contrasting eternal life with the opposite, which is death. If he hadn't intended death to mean an end or destruction, wouldn't he have said something like eternal torment?

Believers in Christ die too. They "pay" that wage of sin if you take it to mean mere physical passing away.

 

[Prov910]

Believers in Christ die too. They "pay" that wage of sin if you take it to mean mere physical passing away.

I think Paul is contrasting the fate of non-believers with that of Christ's followers. Look at verse 23 in context with 22:

22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom. 6:22-23)​

 

[TMS]

Job_26:6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.


Psa_16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
(Is this a reference to Jesus not seeing corruption in the grave)


Psa_18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.


Psa_86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

Psa_139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Pro_5:5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.

Pro_7:27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.

Pro_9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

Pro_15:11 Hell (Hell = sheh-ole', sheh-ole'---From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.) and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?

Isa_14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.


Eze_31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.


Amo_9:2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:


Jon_2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.


Hab_2:5 Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:


Mat_5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.)fire.


2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Rev_1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

i see a great connection between the grave and death and hell

 

[TMS]

There is only 2 classes, right, the saved and the unsaved.
Now follow the words of Christ as He explains the meaning of the parable: "He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 13:37-42.

No one can simplify the parable by enlarging on what Jesus said. It is so clear that a child can understand it. He said the tares represented the wicked people, and that they would be cast into the fire "at the end of the world." It was in the harvest that the separation would take place, and He plainly stated, "The harvest is the end of the world." How can anyone misconstrue these words of Christ? The whole idea of the wicked going into the fire at the time of death contradicts our Lord's specific teaching that they would be cast into the fire at the end of the world.

 

[TMS]

Since the judgment also takes place after Christ comes we can see how impossible it would be for anyone to be punished before that time. Justice demands that a person be brought into judgment before being punished. Peter declared, "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." 2 Peter 2:9. That certainly makes sense, doesn't it?

 

[TMS]

The wicked are "reserved" until when? Until the "day of judgment." To be what? "To be punished"! This means they cannot be punished before that judgment day. Does the Bible tell where they are reserved until then? Christ Himself said, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28, 29.

This is plan isn't it? 2 resurrections = 2 groups.

 

[TMS]

They are reserved in the grave.
If plainer words are needed, listen to Jesus speaking in Luke 14:14, "Thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just." Or hear Him again in Matt 16:27, "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." When is "then"? When He comes with His angels. No reward or recompense is handed out until the resurrection of the just, when He comes with all the angels. These verses are beyond controversy. Taken in their context, they contain no ambiguity or hidden meaning.

Again Christ is quoted in the very last chapter of the Bible, "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Rev 22:12. Here He reminds us that "every man"-every person-will receive his just reward when Christ returns to this earth. Job declares "that the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction. They shall be brought forth to the day of wrath." Daniel wrote that they which "sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Dan 12:2. Can there be any doubt where the wicked are reserved before facing resurrection, judgment, and punishment? We have the testimony of Peter, Daniel, Job and the Master Himself. There is no room to quibble. They are reserved in the grave.

 

[TMS]

Rev 20 describes the 2 Resurrection, the wicked, and how they are gathered by the Devil to attack the city of God after the millennium and then the second death. Read Rev 20,21. "But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." 2 Pet 3:7.
The prophet Isaiah (34:8,9) portrays the entire planet enveloped in the destroying fire. Even the streams and dust are transformed into an exploding combustion of pitch and brimstone. Isaiah says this is God's vengeance and "recompense" at the end of the controversy. David adds to the testimony with these words, "Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire, and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Psa 11:6. Notice that he uses almost the same words as John and Peter in describing the fate of the wicked. All agree as to the place of the punishment (the earth) and the agent of punishment (fire).

If the Earth is the place of punishment than it can't be forever because the earth is going to be made new. We will be living on the earth when it is perfect again, so how long will the wicked continue to live and suffer in that fire?

 

[valiant]

I've posted the definition of the word and it refers to the destruction of the spiritual state, i.e. complete loss of well being, complete ruin of the spiritual state as the end result. Can you read the part up there in the definition where it states that the word olethros does not imply extinction/annihilation? That's what it means. I'll go with God's meaning over Plato's, thank you.

lol you are calling yourself god now? but whose definition? I guess Plato, a native Greek speaker, knew better than you do

 

[jenniferand2]

Hell is eternal many verses in the bible talk about hell being for eternity... I think eternity is forever.... so good chance if some one goes to hell it will be torture forever.