Do we have a choice?

Johann · Mar 7, 2024

In the past couple of weeks I have interacted with several people who have been persuaded by the idea that God's foreknowledge of events leads to the notion that we have no choice in our actions (since God already knows what we will do). This is an easy mistake to make when thinking about this issue. However it does not logically follow that because God knows what we will do in the future, we have no freedom.

In this video William Lane Craig provides an explanation why this notion is a mistake. The video is approximately 4 minutes long. Enjoy!

Thunderrr-mental · Mar 7, 2024

Johann said:

In the past couple of weeks I have interacted with several people who have been persuaded by the idea that God's foreknowledge of events leads to the notion that we have no choice in our actions (since God already knows what we will do). This is an easy mistake to make when thinking about this issue. However it does not logically follow that because God knows what we will do in the future, we have no freedom.

In this video William Lane Craig provides an explanation why this notion is a mistake. The video is approximately 4 minutes long. Enjoy!

We have a choice, but it's not free will.

When we don't seek God, before a choice, we will make the wrong choice.

Eli1 · Mar 7, 2024

Johann said:

William Lane Craig is one of my favorite Christian apologists.
The topic of free-will is very simple for me.

We do have free-will but it's very limited. It's bound by the physical rules of our existence and the spiritual rules of our Spirit/Mind.
So, we can make free-will choices but not outside the design.

Working with computers and software for most of my life, a simple analogy is that of a game.
In the game, the characters can have free-will according to the rules of the game, while the game creator can know the complete (100%) outcome or conditions of the game at any time.

Johann · Mar 7, 2024

Thunderrr-mental said:

Would you say the choice and free will is kinda like Libertarian-or Compatibilism. Soft determinism (or compatibilism) is the position or view that causal determinism is true, but we still act as free, morally responsible agents when, in the absence of external constraints, our actions are caused by our desires. Compatibilism does not maintain that humans are free.

What about Open Theism-or Theological Fatalism?

Any Scripture references that you can find to solidify your assertion? This to me is the most important point in any discussion-to work with Scriptures otherwise both of us will go in a tangent of mere speculation or philosophizing-correct?

Thunderrr-mental · Mar 7, 2024

Johann said:

Yes, Anything we ask in his will, he will hear.

And honour the request

We have a choice to ask for help

Of we ask for anything according to his will he will answer.

No matter how trivial no matter how small.

When we ask its possible the out come of time is changed also.

For instance if we didn't ask, we would have followed the path according to our choice.

If we ask, the direction of the path could change, because the choice God have you when you asked was different. To one you where going to make.

With sin you always have a choice before you do it.

selahsays · Mar 7, 2024

When I hear people discussing free will, I always consider it only in the context of salvation—accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Savior.

Johann · Mar 7, 2024

selahsays said:

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/2533343527201241/

What a teacher.
J.

selahsays · Mar 7, 2024

Johann said:

Repentance is of course a must. The Bible tells me so.

Jesus4gives · Mar 7, 2024

Life advances into its own purpose; the experiences of its own existence.

montana123 · Mar 7, 2024

Johann said:

Some people believe God chooses who will be saved, and not saved, in the beginning without their choice.

But then this would mean God's kingdom is not truth love, and He would condemn people that have no choice but to reject the truth seeing no other alternative.

This would go against the nature of God that He is good.

You can program your computer to say I love you, but does your computer love you, and you can program your computer to say I hate you, and will you get mad and smash your computer.

We have to have a choice to choose the truth, or not.

Many are called but few are chosen, so if we have no choice and are fate determined by God then why is He calling people but not choosing them.

Not many noble, not many mighty, not many wise after the flesh are called because their heart condition is not right.

No person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.

No person says Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Ghost.

We did not choose God but He chose us.

When God calls a person He will work in their live to get them to the truth, but when they get to the door of truth they have to choose to go through the door for God's kingdom is love, but they would of not got to the door of truth unless God intervened in their life for the flesh will not do it on its own for in the flesh dwells no good thing, and the flesh is contrary to the Spirit.

The Bible says that some have a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof, ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth which means they did not go through the door of truth.

The Bible plainly states that God commands all people everywhere to repent, and He wants all people to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth, and He is not willing that any perish but all come to repentance, and the Spirit and bride say Come, and all who want salvation can have salvation.

God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened, for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning, for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.

The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

The prophets blood was shed from the foundation of the world.

All the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

All future events but they were considered being at the foundation of the world.

The kingdom was prepared from the foundation of the world although Jesus told the disciples that He goes away to prepare a place for them.

The saints are predestined to salvation does not mean God chooses who will be saved, and not saved, without their choice, but means God already had the plan to give mankind salvation before He laid down the foundation of the world, so it is the same as if the saints have salvation in the beginning but this salvation is to whoever wants this salvation.

Magenta · Mar 7, 2024

Johann said:

Isaiah 45:22 + Revelation 3:20

wattie · Mar 7, 2024

Regarding Revelation 3:20... the wording of it can very well mean about getting eternal salvation..but the context of it actually isn't about eternal salvation !

Johann · Mar 8, 2024

Magenta said:

We would not obtrude upon him; we would not force his door; and if, after we are sure that we are heard, we are not admitted, we turn quietly away. Both of these things are implied here by the language used by the Saviour when he approaches man as represented under the image of knocking at the door: that he desires to be admitted to our friendship; and that he recognizes our freedom in the matter. He does not obtrude himself upon us, nor does he employ force to find admission to the heart. If admitted, he comes and dwells with us; if rejected, he turns quietly away - perhaps to return and knock again, perhaps never to come back.

wolfwint · Mar 8, 2024

Johann said:

We would not obtrude upon him; we would not force his door; and if, after we are sure that we are heard, we are not admitted, we turn quietly away. Both of these things are implied here by the language used by the Saviour when he approaches man as represented under the image of knocking at the door: that he desires to be admitted to our friendship; and that he recognizes our freedom in the matter. He does not obtrude himself upon us, nor does he employ force to find admission to the heart. If admitted, he comes and dwells with us; if rejected, he turns quietly away - perhaps to return and knock again, perhaps never to come back.

Ask Jesus to come into my life/heart is nothing different then to open the door!

Johann · Mar 8, 2024

wolfwint said:

https://www.biblestudytools.com/inspirations/your-daily-verse-ephesians-2-8-9.html

:John 1:12,13; 3:1-7; 1 Peter 1:22-25; Romans 6:3,5; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 3:26,27::
Shalom.
J.

selahsays · Mar 8, 2024

Johann said:

Do you consider asking Jesus into your life (opening the door to let the Savior of the world into your heart) a work?

Johann · Mar 8, 2024

wolfwint said:

knock. The call to the wedding feast (Rev_19:9), to which the parables pointed, e.g. Luk_12:35-38 "when He cometh and knocketh". The popular belief that the Lord is ever knocking at the hearts of sinners is a distortion of Scripture akin to blasphemy.

knock — (Son_5:2). This is a further manifestation of His loving desire for the sinner’s salvation. He who is Himself “the Door,” and who bids us “knock” that it may be “opened unto” us, is first Himself to knock at the door of our hearts. If He did not knock first, we should never come to knock at His door.

Compare Son_5:4-6, which is plainly alluded to here; the Spirit thus in Revelation sealing the canonicity of that mystical book. The spiritual state of the bride there, between waking and sleeping, slow to open the door to her divine lover, answers to that of the lukewarm Laodicea here. “Love in regard to men emptied (humbled) God; for He does not remain in His place and call to Himself the servant whom He loved, but He comes down Himself to seek him, and He who is all-rich arrives at the lodging of the pauper, and with His own voice intimates His yearning love, and seeks a similar return, and withdraws not when disowned, and is not impatient at insult, and when persecuted still waits at the doors” [Nicolaus Cabasilas in Trench].

my voice — He appeals to the sinner not only with His hand (His providences) knocking, but with His voice (His word read or heard; or rather, His Spirit inwardly applying to man’s spirit the lessons to be drawn from His providence and His word). If we refuse to answer to His knocking at our door now, He will refuse to hear our knocking at His door hereafter. In respect to His second coming also, He is even now at the door, and we know not how soon He may knock: therefore we should always be ready to open to Him immediately.
if any man hear — for man is not compelled by irresistible force: Christ knocks, but does not break open the door, though the violent take heaven by the force of prayer (Mat_11:12): whosoever does hear, does so not of himself, but by the drawings of God’s grace (Joh_6:44): repentance is Christ’s gift (Act_5:31). He draws, not drags. The Sun of righteousness, like the natural sun, the moment that the door is opened, pours in His light, which could not previously find an entrance. Compare Hilary on Psa_118:19.

I will come in to him — as I did to Zacchaeus.
sup with him, and he with me — Delightful reciprocity! Compare “dwelleth in me, and I in Him,” Joh_6:56. Whereas, ordinarily, the admitted guest sups with the admitter, here the divine guest becomes Himself the host, for He is the bread of life, and the Giver of the marriage feast. Here again He alludes to the imagery of Son_4:16, where the Bride invites Him to eat pleasant fruits, even as He had first prepared a feast for her, “His fruit was sweet to my taste.” Compare the same interchange, Joh_21:9-13, the feast being made up of the viands that Jesus brought, and those which the disciples brought. The consummation of this blessed intercommunion shall be at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, of which the Lord’s Supper is the earnest and foretaste.

Wonderful, unspeakable bliss-fellowship with Christ and the saints.
J.

Johann · Mar 8, 2024

selahsays said:

I can see that I'm not very "popular"-but I am here for truth-not the opinions of men-to preach Christ and the gospel -For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

There is an infinite difference between the corrupt intellect of man—that is, the Arminians and other proponents of free will—and the Holy Scriptures. The question is: Does the obtaining of salvation proceed from man? Is he the only and essential cause of his salvation, or is God the only essential cause and can man, being absolutely incapable, do nothing to obtain salvation?

The Arminians will readily admit that God has prepared and accomplished salvation and that God has given and revealed Christ the Mediator. However, they attribute this acceptance and entering in upon that way to the good will and power of man. This could be likened to what transpires on a race track. The government has put the prize on display and has prepared the track. The acquisition of the prize, however, is contingent upon the runners themselves.

In order to protect the idol of man’s own ability and of his good will as being the cause of his own salvation, the Arminians would prefer to do away with the distinction between the external and internal call, between the noneffectual and the effectual call.

They would view them as being the same, and thus recognize only one calling. The effect would then not be due to the efficacious operation of God working more in one person than in another. Instead, it would be related to the outcome; namely, that the one person obeys the call by his free will (which enables him either to respond or to reject this call) and thus be saved. Another person will despise and reject this call by the same neutral free will. Scripture, however, rebukes and refutes such foolish thoughts and demonstrates first of all that the calling is effectual unto salvation as a result of God’s purpose, “...who are the called according to his purpose” (Rom. 8:28); “for the gifts and calling of God are without repentance” (Rom. 11:29).

“And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed” (Acts 13:48). Scripture conveys in the second place that there is no distinction in man himself, but that this distinction originates with God. “For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?” (1 Cor. 4:7). Man, however, by attributing the cause of one having more faith than another to his goodness and power, would create such a distinction.

There is thus a calling which is of an effectual nature and penetrates the inner man—his intellect, will, and inclinations, changing and sanctifying them. This is the internal call . There is a calling by means of the Word of God which is not accompanied by God’s effectual operation (which generates faith and love), but which comes to the external ear only. It leaves man in his natural state, who, in his wickedness, rejects this external call. He despises this call due to his free will which wills by way of necessary consequence. This is true of most who are called (Matt. 22:5, 14). We shall discuss both calls individually, considering the external call first.

What do you think? Is salvation from man-a work-or is it from God-God's work? And who exactly is opening the door? Unless, of course, you totally disagree with the post-

Shalom
J.

Thunderrr-mental · Mar 8, 2024

Johann said:

I can see that I'm not very "popular"-but I am here for truth-not the opinions of men-to preach Christ and the gospel -For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

There is an infinite difference between the corrupt intellect of man—that is, the Arminians and other proponents of free will—and the Holy Scriptures. The question is: Does the obtaining of salvation proceed from man? Is he the only and essential cause of his salvation, or is God the only essential cause and can man, being absolutely incapable, do nothing to obtain salvation?

The Arminians will readily admit that God has prepared and accomplished salvation and that God has given and revealed Christ the Mediator. However, they attribute this acceptance and entering in upon that way to the good will and power of man. This could be likened to what transpires on a race track. The government has put the prize on display and has prepared the track. The acquisition of the prize, however, is contingent upon the runners themselves.

In order to protect the idol of man’s own ability and of his good will as being the cause of his own salvation, the Arminians would prefer to do away with the distinction between the external and internal call, between the noneffectual and the effectual call.

They would view them as being the same, and thus recognize only one calling. The effect would then not be due to the efficacious operation of God working more in one person than in another. Instead, it would be related to the outcome; namely, that the one person obeys the call by his free will (which enables him either to respond or to reject this call) and thus be saved. Another person will despise and reject this call by the same neutral free will. Scripture, however, rebukes and refutes such foolish thoughts and demonstrates first of all that the calling is effectual unto salvation as a result of God’s purpose, “...who are the called according to his purpose” (Rom. 8:28); “for the gifts and calling of God are without repentance” (Rom. 11:29).

“And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed” (Acts 13:48). Scripture conveys in the second place that there is no distinction in man himself, but that this distinction originates with God. “For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?” (1 Cor. 4:7). Man, however, by attributing the cause of one having more faith than another to his goodness and power, would create such a distinction.

There is thus a calling which is of an effectual nature and penetrates the inner man—his intellect, will, and inclinations, changing and sanctifying them. This is the internal call . There is a calling by means of the Word of God which is not accompanied by God’s effectual operation (which generates faith and love), but which comes to the external ear only. It leaves man in his natural state, who, in his wickedness, rejects this external call. He despises this call due to his free will which wills by way of necessary consequence. This is true of most who are called (Matt. 22:5, 14). We shall discuss both calls individually, considering the external call first.

What do you think? Is salvation from man-a work-or is it from God-God's work? And who exactly is opening the door? Unless, of course, you totally disagree with the post-

Shalom
J.

it's the the father who knocks on the unsaved person.

The word of God is a seed that enters every heart johann.

When your saved you then knock 😋band get an answer,

An unsaved person can knock untill the cows come home, he won't get an answer

Stan_the_Man · Mar 8, 2024

Johann said:

That comes from the heresy of calvinism, so you can ignore those guys and their unbiblical teachings.

Jesus4gives said:

That's what all the new agers keep saying

Do we have a choice?

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